The Cholesterol Thread: HDL v. LDL v. Lipitor - CAGEMATCH

So what say you innerweb doctah's:

Cholesterol what do you know?

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

I just got the annual physical and got the chol reading of 274. Evidently this is a really bad number: 200 hdl 74 ldl….
I'm queued up for the butt scan too.

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HmMMF See, that’s fuckt your "good" cholesterol is WAY high for what they say you should have and your "bad" cholesterol is "low" WTF should it matter about the combined? IIRC I have a similar setup but with somewhat higher "bad" but still under the "limit" and the combined is what gets me, I just checked at the AHA and per their little quiz ONLY 25% of cholesterol comes from food so per that there's no way for you to go below 200 even without eating :/

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/...l/atp3xsum.pdf

And this little gem:

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Any person with elevated LDL cholesterol or other form of hyperlipidemia should
undergo clinical or laboratory assessment to rule out secondary dyslipidemia before
initiation of lipid-lowering therapy. Causes of secondary dyslipidemia include:
• Diabetes
• Hypothyroidism
• Obstructive liver disease
• Chronic renal failure
• Drugs that increase LDL cholesterol and decrease HDL cholesterol
(progestins, anabolic steroids, and corticosteroids).

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(emphasis mine)

And check out page 25 and 26 (of the report), something odd is that as you get older you get fewer positive points for having higher cholesterol (counterintuitive).

I'm totally gonna have to look up my old blood tests cause my doctor is always giving me shit about this as well, I'm starting to smell a great BIG FAT lipitor RAT!

Have fun with the butt scan, that's shitty.

Man, I must be flipping my bits today. I meant that my "bad" chol is 200. Maybe I meant ldl of 200.

Anyway, yeah, I've also got hypothyroidosis evidently.

In the past when I've gotten this done, they said it was OK to drink coffee. So I drank coffee I made with the french press that morning. But when I got the wild results, even with this pinchbag diet I'm on and some folks mentioned that coffee made w/o a filter induces higher cholesterol, I started googling to find these articles indicating that unfiltered coffee is bad.

I think the doc is trying to get me on lipitor which I'm not going to do. I just small a big fucking rat in all this shit. I'm 6' and weigh 180 and I'm not in bad shape....

Woah, okay 200 for ldl is pretty high I guess…. ;)

The few times I've fasted I was specifically told nothing besides plain water for 12hrs, which is pretty easy to do, pound the last Hammy at 8pm, drink water, blood test at 8am, 8:04am crack into the thermos of coffee in the truck :D

Try a back to back test just with pulling out the coffee?

I also wonder how elastic some of the tests are and if they can be gamed at all, not that I would necessarily but…I'm curious.

Think I've got the hyperthyroiditisism in my future. Metabolism becoming increasingly humming bird like as I get old(er).

Generally triglycerides are the most affected type of cholesterol as far as eating before the test goes. I tell patients they can have anything without calories before the test, which generally includes black coffee (no cream or sugar). Never heard anything else about coffee affecting the results otherwise, but of course that doesn't mean it can't happen. As LemonBoy suggested, a large part of cholesterol is genetic, so just because your fit doesn't mean you can't have high cholesterol. If you have hypothyroidism, it might be reasonable to get that under control (and work on diet and exercise if there is room for improvement there) then recheck your cholesterol. Hypothyroidism also seems to elevate triglycerides more in my experience, but can be a cause of elevated LDL.

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Originally Posted by wilcox510

Generally triglycerides are the most affected type of cholesterol as far as eating before the test goes. I tell patients they can have anything without calories before the test, which generally includes black coffee (no cream or sugar). Never heard anything else about coffee affecting the results otherwise, but of course that doesn't mean it can't happen.

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Google "coffee cholesterol" and read the Johns Hopkins findings. Unfiltered coffee drinkers have higher cholesterol. And I know how to lie with statistics.

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As LemonBoy suggested, a large part of cholesterol is genetic, so just because your fit doesn't mean you can't have high cholesterol.

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I know.

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If you have hypothyroidism? it might be reasonable to get that under control (and work on diet and exercise if there is room for improvement there) then recheck your cholesterol. Hypothyroidism also seems to elevate triglycerides more in my experience, but can be a cause of elevated LDL.

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So what if I have hypothyroidism. What are the symptoms? What's the concern? I've read the basic stuff and I don't have the symptoms specified, except fatigue sometimes, and there're other reasons for that.

Be forewarned, I'm very, very suspicious of the medical, insurance and drug industries. I'm not impugning your character or sincerity personally, but more often than not, doctors don't know what the fuck they'res really talking about.

B- Have you thought about finding yourself a hippy doctor (if you don't have one already)? Of course, I have one that often flips me shit about not eating so much meat and stuff but I generally really like the style at that office.

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Originally Posted by lemon boy

B- Have you thought about finding yourself a hippy doctor (if you don't have one already)? Of course, I have one that often flips me shit about not eating so much meat and stuff but I generally really like the style at that office.

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Not really...I try to complement my basic essense of patchouli, birkenstocks and macrame' with the opposing camps views.

We've gone the naturopaths way with one of the nubs allergies and the $500 initial test is a bit daunting for we of scottish soul.

Wow, that's not natural…that's parasitic! :)

Mine isn't all natural or anything the group is just big on fusing traditional/natural with modern medical often in different/effective ways. Doesn't smell like patchouli at all.

Normally, I'd just blow this shit off and write it off as another smarmketing ploy by the medinsurdrug cartels. But I've got some reasons I need to resolve whether or not this is a real issue.

So the first assumption is that the unfiltered coffee may have skewed the test. So I have another one scheduled in 7 weeks. I'm going to stay on this diet, eat fruit for dinner the afternoon before the test, consume absolutely nothing between 4 pm and the time of the test. Then I'll take stock again.

I am stopping the unfiltered coffee, kind of a bummer, because the shit is tasty.

Dude, what do you have against Lipitor? Probably one of the most successful and relatively safe drugs on the market.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Man, I must be flipping my bits today. I meant that my "bad" chol is 200. Maybe I meant ldl of 200

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Point of clarification. Your "Total Cholesterol" is not your LDL + your HDL. Total also includes triglycerides... and it isn't a simple calculation like LDL + HDL + TG = TC there are other variables in play (of which I'm not too keen on).

Just for the sake of it, here is a recent lipid panel of a patient in one of my lipid studies (pre-treatment):

Plasma Cholesterol (TC): 265 mg/dL
Triglycerides (TG): 139 mg/dL
HDL: 68 mg/dL
LDL: 169 mg/dL

So just make sure you have your numbers correct... don't look at TC in and of itself... a good number to look at is "non-HDL cholesterol" or just LDL. Generally, an LDL >180 is bad for anybody, >160 is bad for somebody with 1 to 2 risk factors (hypertension, smoking, old age, family history of heart disease, etc), and so on...

Take with it what you want. I work for the evil conglomerate of pharma companies hoping to make money off of athersclerosis medications like the aforementioned Lipitor. In fact, my company developed the first of many "Lipitors"... so I'm probably the least trustworthy!! ;)

Information HERE.

Road trip- what does your evil pharma-marketing brain say about the Framingham risk assessment tool?

It seems to be to be betterer than merely talking about LDL in relation to risk factors.

Thanks for finding the full report.

Stymie- obviously I'm not buster but the idea of taking some kind of maintenance drug all the time to reduce something that maybe could contribute to you having a heart attack that might happen especially if as the Framingham thing suggests it only gets you a potential benefit of 1 or 2 % pts on your 10 year risk of heart attack, depending on your situation…not too into that really.

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Originally Posted by Stymie

Dude, what do you have against Lipitor? Probably one of the most successful and relatively safe drugs on the market.

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From : lipitor.com:

Muscle problems. LIPITOR can cause serious muscle problems that may lead to kidney problems, including kidney failure. You have a higher chance of muscle problems if you are taking certain other medicines with LIPITOR.

Liver problems. LIPITOR can cause liver problems. Your doctor may do blood tests to check your liver before you start taking LIPITOR, and while you take it. Symptoms of muscle or liver problems include:
Unexplained muscle weakness or pain, especially if you have a fever or feel very tired
Nausea, vomiting, or stomach pain
Brown or dark-colored urine
Feeling more tired than usual
Your skin and the whites of your eyes turn yellow
If you have any of these symptoms, call your doctor right away.
The most common side effects of LIPITOR are:
Headache
Constipation
Diarrhea
Gas
Upset stomach and stomach pain
Rash
Muscle and joint pain
Side effects are usually mild and may go away by themselves. In clinical studies of 2,502 patients, 98% of LIPITOR users did not have side effects that stopped them from taking their medication.

When there's big money to be made, I don't trust the corporate medium.

As for RT: my hdl+ldl = 274. Too big a number, but I'm really not convinced that it means what everyone says, particularly in light of my low thyroid and unfiltered coffee.

If I have to take that shit, I will, but I'm not going to if I can lower the numbers by changing my diet and habits.

When you really give something a close look, there's more smoke and mirrors and marketing bullshit than anyone wants to believe.
Besides, my maxim has always been that "the only drugs I consume are of the recreational sort".

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

From : lipitor.com:

Muscle problems. LIPITOR can cause serious muscle problems that may lead to kidney problems, including kidney failure. You have a higher chance of muscle problems if you are taking certain other medicines with LIPITOR.

Liver problems. LIPITOR can cause liver problems. Your doctor may do blood tests to check your liver before you start taking LIPITOR, and while you take it. Symptoms of muscle or liver problems include:
Unexplained muscle weakness or pain, especially if you have a fever or feel very tired
Nausea, vomiting, or stomach pain
Brown or dark-colored urine
Feeling more tired than usual
Your skin and the whites of your eyes turn yellow
If you have any of these symptoms, call your doctor right away.
The most common side effects of LIPITOR are:
Headache
Constipation
Diarrhea
Gas
Upset stomach and stomach pain
Rash
Muscle and joint pain
Side effects are usually mild and may go away by themselves. In clinical studies of 2,502 patients, 98% of LIPITOR users did not have side effects that stopped them from taking their medication.

When there's big money to be made, I don't trust the corporate medium.

As for RT: my hdl+ldl = 274. Too big a number, but I'm really not convinced that it means what everyone says, particularly in light of my low thyroid and unfiltered coffee.

If I have to take that shit, I will, but I'm not going to if I can lower the numbers by changing my diet and habits.

When you really give something a close look, there's more smoke and mirrors and marketing bullshit than anyone wants to believe.
Besides, my maxim has always been that "the only drugs I consume are of the recreational sort".

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Re-take the cholesterol test... if it comes back as high as before... you should listen closely to your doctor about statins. I agree with you somewhat about the way drugs are marketed. However, just be an educated patient- read all you can and ask questions. Most of the time the benefits outweigh the risks- lipitor is relatively safe (your descriptions above nonwithstanding). Listen, no drug is a silver bullet... medicinal chemistry is still very much a imprecise science- we do the best we can, though.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Constipation
Diarrhea

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AWESOME!

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Originally Posted by Stymie

Re-take the cholesterol test... if it comes back as high as before... you should listen closely to your doctor about statins. I agree with you somewhat about the way drugs are marketed. However, just be an educated patient- read all you can and ask questions. Most of the time the benefits outweigh the risks- lipitor is relatively safe (your descriptions above nonwithstanding). Listen, no drug is a silver bullet... medicinal chemistry is still very much a imprecise science- we do the best we can, though.

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The last 3 tests went like this for LDL+HDL numbers:
310
208
274

Imagine my suspicion!

Safe?

Statin Drug Side Effects
Like all medications, statin's have potential side effects. The most common side effects include:

Nausea
Diarrhea
Constipation
Muscle Aching
In addition to the side effects listed above there are two serious side effects such as rhabdomyolysis (which may be fatal) associated with statin medications:

Rhabdomyolysis. Rhabdomyolysis is the breakdown of muscle fibers resulting in the release of muscle fiber contents into the circulation. Some of these are toxic to the kidney and frequenty result in kidney damage. Crestor, Liptior, Zocor, Mevacor, Pravachol, and Lescol are beleived to increase the risk of rhabdomyolysis.

Elevated liver enzymes. Occasionally, statin use causes an increase in liver enzymes. If the increase is only mild, you can continue to take the drug. If the increase is severe, you may need to stop taking it, which usually reverses the problem. Certain other cholesterol-lowering drugs, such as gemfibrozil (Lopid) and niacin, increase the risk of liver problems in people who take statins. Because liver problems may develop without symptoms, people who take statins should have their liver function tested periodically.


Statin myopathy. Statins may cause muscle pain and tenderness (statin myopathy). In severe cases, muscle cells can break down (rhabdomyolysis) and release a protein called myoglobin into the bloodstream. Myoglobin can impair kidney function and lead to kidney failure. Certain drugs when taken with statins can increase the risk of rhabdomyolysis. These include gemfibrozil, erythromycin (Erythrocin), anti fungal medications, nefazodone (Serzone), cyclosporine and niacin. If you take statins and have new muscle aching or tenderness, consult with your doctor.
The serious side effects of statin medications have been known for some time. On August 8, 2001 Bayer recalled their statin drug called Baycol as a result of 31 deaths that were linked to Baycol.

Recently an FDA associate director of drug safety gave a Crestor warning which recommended a Crestor recall due to the prevalence of serious Crestor side effects like rhabdomyolysis. Many exoerts beleive the same serious side effects shared by Baycol and Crestor are associated with all statin drugs.. Over the last few years experts have learned more about the serious side effects of statin drugs such as Crestor and have issued several warnings in order to help educate the public and doctors about side effects. Due to the seriousness of Crestor side effects many experts agree that the FDA should initiate a Crestor recall.

Statin drugs have a history of serious side effects. If you or a loved one have taken Crestor, Lipitor, Zocor, Mevacor, Pravachol, or Lescol and have been injured as a result of the side effects or if you have questions about statin drug side effects contact the statin drug attorneys of Ennis & Ennis, P.A. today. The statin drug lawyers of Ennis & Ennis specialize in statin drug lawsuits resulting from Crestor side effects, Lipitor side effects, Zocor side effects, Mevacor side effects, and Pravachol side effects. Ennis & Ennis, P.A. is a national mass tort litigation / drug litigation law firm with offices in Washington DC and throughout Florida. Contact us today for your free, confidential case evaluation.

If you are currently taking Crestor, Lipitor, Zocor, Mevacor, or Pravachol and have concerns about its safety, you should consult with your doctor regarding your treatment options. Under no circumstances should you discontinue taking any medication, including Crestor, Lipitor, Zocor, Mevacor, or Pravachol without first consulting with your doctor.


Tell me again why we can't get red yeast rice? Why hasn't policosinol been studied?

I'm not that well read, but I'm not iggurunt neether. It's probubly jest all that lsd I ate 30 or so years ago.

buster trusts trial lawyers more than drug congloms?

who knew :D

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Originally Posted by lemon boy

buster trusts trial lawyers more than drug congloms?

who knew :D

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Spin it how you want citron garcon, but the fact that there are trial lawyers trawling for cases does indicate something. My first thought is that they would be paid by the drug companies to intercept these cases before they came to trial.

Probably they have a deal with the class action lawyers to hand over the class list so they can send them free samples of new drugs :)

Are you high cholesterol boys sucking down the fish oil supplements?

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Originally Posted by Stikki

Are you high cholesterol boys sucking down the fish oil supplements?

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Smells like fish.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Spin it how you want citron garcon, but the fact that there are trial lawyers trawling for cases does indicate something. My first thought is that they would be paid by the drug companies to intercept these cases before they came to trial.

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Basically client sign up numbers allow maneuvering closer toward the case management committee or similar and bigger billable hours = deep end of the trough.

Most of those cases are generated more by looking at drug conglom's stock price than any actual side effects anyone might suffer let alone attempting to win injured party real damage awards.

Don't tell anyone how I know this ;)

coffee did raise my total chol 50 points.
statins can cause muscle pain. i got it with lipitor but no problem with zocor. the serious muscle side effects are very rare.
if you read the pdr for aspirin or anything else you would never take any pill and your life expectancy would be 50 like it was in 1900.

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Originally Posted by haydukelives

if you read the pdr for aspirin or anything else you would never take any pill and your life expectancy would be 50 like it was in 1900.

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Evidently, Hayduke is dead.

I had 2 beers before I fasted for 12 hours. My cholesterol was 244, with my LDL and triglycerides very elevated. I knew it wasn't correct and I went back and re-tested and by some amazing feat, my cholesterol had dropped to 172. Just keep that in mind as well, they usually don't tell you about that before or after the tests.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...=&pagewanted=1

Also: put the following two articles together and get the hypothesis that polyunsaturated fat (found in vegetable oils, most particularly corn and soybean) can induce a temporary state of low effective thyroid. Cut down the fried foods and peanut butter.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...&dopt=Abstract
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic2277.htm

Got my numbers this morning:

Cholesterol = 189
Triglyceride = 181
HDL = 49
LDL calculated = 104

The lab slip is kind enough to tell me that these are all within normal range as set by one boundary (<239, <199, >40, <129), but don't tell me what the other end of the normal range is. So I have no basis to know whether I'm just squeaking under the warning range or good to go. Badly-designed lab slip, imho.

ldl <100 is "optimal" so you're really close to optimal.

The lab slip is supposed to give you poor info so that you need a Dr. to interpret it for you.

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Originally Posted by lemon boy

ldl <100 is "optimal" so you're really close to optimal.

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New custom user title!

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by alpinedad

Got my numbers this morning:

Cholesterol = 189
Triglyceride = 181
HDL = 49
LDL calculated = 104

The lab slip is kind enough to tell me that these are all within normal range as set by one boundary (<239, <199, >40, <129), but don't tell me what the other end of the normal range is. So I have no basis to know whether I'm just squeaking under the warning range or good to go. Badly-designed lab slip, imho.

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I like your lab target numbers a lot better than mine.

What really bugs me about the numbers is knowing what the target is. My doc used to say 240 was borderline, then 220, then 200, now 180. My latest was:

Total = 173, <180 okay
Hdl = 40, =40 okay
ldl = 101, > 100, borderline
Tri's = 158 > 150, high

The drug companies, through 'studies' keep changing the target. The lower the target, the more potential patients. I really question the sense of taking the tests when the answers are so nebulous.

Fug it! Ben and Jerry's anyone?

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Originally Posted by GoldMember

The drug companies, through 'studies' keep changing the target. The lower the target, the more potential patients. I really question the sense of taking the tests when the answers are so nebulous.

Fug it! Ben and Jerry's anyone?

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The consistency of my results is another thing. HDL+LDL varying from 310 to 208?

I smell a well financed rat.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

The consistency of my results is another thing. HDL+LDL varying from 310 to 208?

I smell a well financed rat.

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I don't think it's as easy as adding the two numbers together. I think there are other factors (MDL's?) that play into the total. The two (HDL+LDL) have never totaled to the total on my tests. "I'm no doctor but I play one on TV.." so I don't know how the lab rats calculate any of this. What I know though is that on one hand, my GP says that some 50 yr. olds are physically about 70 and some are physically about 35 and that I'm fortunate to be one of the latter. My cardiologist friend though keeps trying to tell me I'm going to die tomorrow if I don't hit those ridiculously lowering target numbers. I like my GP better :D

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Originally Posted by GoldMember

I don't think it's as easy as adding the two numbers together. I think there are other factors (MDL's?) that play into the total. The two (HDL+LDL) have never totaled to the total on my tests. "I'm no doctor but I play one on TV.." so I don't know how the lab rats calculate any of this. What I know though is that on one hand, my GP says that some 50 yr. olds are physically about 70 and some are physically about 35 and that I'm fortunate to be one of the latter. My cardiologist friend though keeps trying to tell me I'm going to die tomorrow if I don't hit those ridiculously lowering target numbers. I like my GP better :D

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It is that easy if one defines it that way. If I have transgressed some divine protectorate of the Holy Naming Convention, then fine.

So, let HDL+LDL be defined to be the Wadsome Pinduxtter Summation Index.

My Wadsome Pinduxtter Summation Index has vacillated along a gaussian distribution integrated over a sheaf of wavelets from 310 to 208 and now 274.

Does that clarify things?

Perfectly.

so........my results (first ever)...

Cholesterol =197
HDL = 34
LDL = 112
Triglycerides = 289 :eek:

I do believe that I'm at risk of genetic high triglycerides, given that my stupid dad and bitchass aunt are on lipitor

going in tomorrow, they are going to run another blood test that takes 2 weeks to get results from, then we talk therapies.......

tell them the protocol you want to control your high tri's is:

bi weekely hot-nurse-stroke-off-or-hummer. I hear it's really popular.

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Originally Posted by Tap

so........my results (first ever)...

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I just had mine tested for the first time ever a couple weeks ago, too.

total = 182
HDL = 80
Triglycerides = 63

I guess something will kill me, but looks like it's (probably) not going to be heart diease.

Speaking as someone who works in drug discovery and development I want to make a point that drives me up the wall. It's not specific to cholesterol or any other drug treatment.

Caffeine is a drug. Lipitor is also a drug. I understand how it's easy to say, "Oh but one is natural and comes from the ground" and blah blah blah and "One is synthetic and man made and dangerous" and blah blah blah.

Caffeine has just as many side effects as lipitor, without the benefit of physician oversight. Caffeine can cause hypertension, sleep disorders, irregular/rapid heart beat, nervousness, involuntary muscle twitching, headaches, and respirtory problems, just off the top of my head.

Just beacuse something is marketed by big bad evil pharma companies, doesn't mean it's any less safe than the herbal supplements, naturpathic remedies, or other chemicals you may be ingesting on a day to day basis.

Next time you want to make a case for something natural being a-ok to ingest, keep in mind that psychadelic mushrooms come straight from the ground, and are decidedly more dangerous than advil.

As a parting shot, look at these two pictures. One is caffeine and one is lipitor. You can probably guess which is which, but when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter where it comes from, a molecule is a molecule, some are natural and some are synthetic, neither of which are guaranteed to be safe.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ffeine.svg.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...px-Lipitor.png

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Originally Posted by GoldMember

I don't think it's as easy as adding the two numbers together. I think there are other factors (MDL's?) that play into the total. The two (HDL+LDL) have never totaled to the total on my tests. "I'm no doctor but I play one on TV.." so I don't know how the lab rats calculate any of this.

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Yeah, mine don't add up like that either:

Cholesterol = 171
HDL = 68
LDL = 91
Triglycerides = 60
Cholesterol Ratio (?) = 2.5&#37;

And my total cholesterol has always been close to the same. I remember it being 167 like 10 years ago, then 174 at one point, now 171. And this test was monday morning after our trip to Big Sky where I ate bacon cheeseburgers and drank tons of beer all weekend. That seems bizarre to get wildly varying numbers. I'd definitely get re-tested and talk to a few more doctors/experts before going on medication when it's jumping around like that.