How do I work this thing?

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05-10-2007, 08:52 AM
Natedogg

How do I work this thing?

I'm sure I'm gonna get flamed for this post, but D-SLRs are freakin' complicated. I just got a Canon 20D, and have borrowed a Rebel XT from the local camera shop in the past. From the limited photos I've taken, and the limited tinkering I've done with the settings, I have even more respect for a lot of you photogs on here (not that I didn't think a lot of your guys' shit was... well, the shit). I came from shooting slides, which is so WYSIWYG it gives a false sense of the ease of photography.

So the gigantic 'meaning-of-life' question I have is--where do I start? I'm reading through the instruction manual now, but do you guys have any advice on what I should be tinkering with? The photos I've taken so far are kinda fuzzy, the colors are bland or washed out, the exposure seems waaayy more sensitive than transparency (ie., the sky gets washed out much easier, which is frustrating as hell), etc. Any quick-snippet suggestions? I'm blown away by the sharp, saturated photos a lot of you guys post. FKNA awesome.

Post-processing: don't want to touch it with a 10-foot pole right now. APax's thread left me dizzy.
05-10-2007, 08:54 AM
bklyn

Post an example pic of something you felt went wrong. We can help you better from there.
05-10-2007, 12:33 PM
PearlJam09

I'm pretty new to it too, but some bland colors, especially in the sky can be fixed using a polarizing filter. Between 20 and 40 bucks depending on the size of the lens you're using. Try googling it, you'll see some examples
05-10-2007, 12:36 PM
Natedogg

I'm not that much of a jong. I've been shooting slides for awhile--it's more the digital fudge factor I need to figure out.

BTW, will do T. I just gotta get home and find the photos I'm talking about.
05-10-2007, 01:24 PM
truth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natedogg

I'm not that much of a jong. I've been shooting slides for awhile--it's more the digital fudge factor I need to figure out.

BTW, will do T. I just gotta get home and find the photos I'm talking about.

Probably the biggest change from film will be ISO and the way you use it. Since there is no film to warrant a specific ISO setting, think of it as a an adjustment that allows you to achieve the f stop and speed you want to shoot at. Ideally you're shooting at ISO 100 because that will yield the lowest noise levels in an image. As available light decreases you'll bump the ISO up to maintain any given f stop / speed combo. There's also the nifty trick of exposure compensation but I'm not sure how detailed you want me to get. The 20d and other modern dSLR's have great light meters and auto white balance especially if you're shooting RAW. As far as metering any given scene, always adjust for the highlights and bring the shadows back in RAW conversion. A blown out highlight contains no data to recover, but a shadow that's too dark can most often be brought back as there is data being recorded by the sensor. I ONLY shoot RAW. Shoot jpg and you might as well use a point and shoot camera. I alos tend to shoot in full manual mode as the auto settings never really give me the image I want. Only exception is when I'm panning or moving in and out of shadows so uch that manual gets impossible to manage.

Once you get the images out of the camera and onto a computer then you'll really see the upside to digital. That's another conversation that depends on the software you'll be using.
05-10-2007, 06:36 PM
AstroPax

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natedogg

So the gigantic 'meaning-of-life' question I have is--where do I start?

http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/20d/users-guide.htm

-Astro
05-10-2007, 07:56 PM
Pura Vida

Quote:

Originally Posted by AstroPax

http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/20d/users-guide.htm

-Astro

That should be an automatic link for all forums frequented by the "I just spent a lot of money on a DSLR, but my images look worse than my dig point and shoot, WTF?" people. As he says, "it's written so my mom can understand," but it does provide a lot of useful info to get to know the camera w/ out a lot of work and frustration (and also some things I don't agree with).

Yep, Natedogg the switch to DSLR takes some adapting, but you will be stoked on it in the long run. Thankfully it sounds like you have been shooting w/ SLR cameras for a while, so I'm sure it won't be long till you get it wired. As mentioned earlier posting pics/exif metadata would help here with working out specific issues w/ your recent images.
05-10-2007, 09:21 PM
Natedogg

Cool guys, thanks for all the replies. I'll have to check out that users guide.

Here are photos from when I borrowed the local shop owner's Rebel XT a few years ago (I took a bunch of RAW photos with the new 20D and have yet to figure out how to convert them. I guess I'm being a little naieve thinking that I don't want to deal with post-processing yet, huh?). Unfortunately, I don't have the metadata (I don't think). I think most were shot with the XT and the 17-40L f/4.

One of the first shots: I was really bummed with the result, but didn't think much of it and figured I could mess with settings to get it dialed in.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/9...arridgeqw4.jpg

We had a shit ton of fun screwing with everything at night. I never did this with the film SLR since I can't afford to spend $$$$ on film, developing, etc, and I was never real dilligent about recording settings for each photo.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3...iiiiikefv4.jpg

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/1817/silashl8.jpg

Conditions weren't the best for great photos, but again, I was super disappointed. The colors (especially the greens) weren't popping, the sky/clouds were getting blown out over what seemed to me not much of a large exposure range.

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/9/tmanbowlzf0.jpg

On the way down I had a little better luck, but that's all it was--luck. Late-day lighting was a big help. I still felt like the camera just wasn't picking up the amazing light at this time of day. I felt that a slide of this same composition would have been amazing (not that the composition is very good, but the light was sick).

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/8162/ridgecl1.jpg

Once again, night time was fun, playing with ISO (for grain), shutter speeds, etc...

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9773/firesl5.jpg

Once again, blown out sky, boring colors. I have a whole series of the falls below, different shutter speeds, aperatures, etc, and not one good photo. I'm probably more into color saturation than most people, and this just isn't doing anything for me. I love E100VS (vivid saturation)--I have photos of botanic gardens in NZ where red roses blow you away against the deep blue sky, deep blue sky with sharp textured rock outcrops in the Big Horns WY, bright neon pink climbing rope against forest green packs, yellow shirt, etc, but the photos I've gotten with these DSLRs have not come close to matching that. I'm really feeling humbled, knowing that a lot of my good photos are less skill and more due to ease and forgiveness of tranparency film.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/5033/fallsfo4.jpg

So then I got the bright idea to cut down on the blown out portions of photos by using a ND filter. This is just a Cokin filter held in front of the lens.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6651/dbathsndah5.jpg

With the meh results, I just kept screwing with things--mostly shutter speeds, ISO, and aperature.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/695/dbathsyp2.jpg
05-10-2007, 09:49 PM
Natedogg

Colors, sharpness, etc just don't seem the same as these slides (some are pretty shyte scans):

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/271/averilles2.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3026/dnotchkl2.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4223/chchrosefw0.jpg

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9185/pingorarf1.jpg

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1173/warriorsol5.jpg

BennyWA

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3...rutreesrt0.jpg
05-10-2007, 10:02 PM
The Jackamo

Quote:

Originally Posted by truth

Probably the biggest change from film will be ISO and the way you use it. Since there is no film to warrant a specific ISO setting, think of it as a an adjustment that allows you to achieve the f stop and speed you want to shoot at. Ideally you're shooting at ISO 100 because that will yield the lowest noise levels in an image. As available light decreases you'll bump the ISO up to maintain any given f stop / speed combo. There's also the nifty trick of exposure compensation but I'm not sure how detailed you want me to get. The 20d and other modern dSLR's have great light meters and auto white balance especially if you're shooting RAW. As far as metering any given scene, always adjust for the highlights and bring the shadows back in RAW conversion. A blown out highlight contains no data to recover, but a shadow that's too dark can most often be brought back as there is data being recorded by the sensor. I ONLY shoot RAW. Shoot jpg and you might as well use a point and shoot camera. I alos tend to shoot in full manual mode as the auto settings never really give me the image I want. Only exception is when I'm panning or moving in and out of shadows so uch that manual gets impossible to manage.

Once you get the images out of the camera and onto a computer then you'll really see the upside to digital. That's another conversation that depends on the software you'll be using.

i'm a little late to this thread, but this assessment is spot on.

i personally shoot mostly in aperture-priority mode most of the time, though (as opposed to full manual) and let the shutter speed figure itself out (or bracket it if i'm so inclined).
05-16-2007, 08:21 PM
PearlJam09

Do you by any chance have the software that is supposed to come with the 20D. I got one off craigslist and it didn't come with the CDs with the canon crap on it. I was able to get the drivers, but I can't get my hands on the software. Any chance you can burn me some CDs?
05-17-2007, 10:30 AM
Tippster

ZoombrowserEX, and any other Canon software, is downloadable.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...&modelid=10464
05-17-2007, 11:15 AM
PearlJam09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tippster

ZoombrowserEX, and any other Canon software, is downloadable.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...&modelid=10464

No Dice. The only executables i could find were updates, and they wont let you update without the original product. Already tried it. Thanks. If anyone has the CD or wants to Email me the file (if its smaller than 10Mb), I'd greatly appreciate it.
05-17-2007, 11:42 AM
Tippster

I'll send you what I have via Yousendit when I get home.
05-17-2007, 12:51 PM
PearlJam09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tippster

I'll send you what I have via Yousendit when I get home.

Cool. Just let me know what I have to do.
05-17-2007, 02:46 PM
Natedogg

Quote:

Originally Posted by PearlJam09

Cool. Just let me know what I have to do.

If that doesnt work, I can try to get you something...

So............ I go through the trouble of posting all those shitty photos and no one says a damn thing?? :confused: Any help? Suggs? Anything? At this point Im just messing with ISO, shutter speed, and aperature... I need some more suggs on what to play with.
05-17-2007, 03:08 PM
Shepherd Wong

What metering mode were you using? You might want to check your color space to see if you are in sRGB mode. Turn up in camera saturation if you don't think there is enough color?
05-17-2007, 06:02 PM
dipstik

A couple things...

Most of those first few shots are way overexposed. What settings are you shooting at?

My suggestion: Learn to shoot in manual. For the standard mountain/sky shot on a sunny day, try this: select ISO 200, set the aperture to f/8, point the meter toward whatever you want exposed correctly (the sky or the light that falls on the trees) and adjust shutter speed until it indicates a correct exposure. Then, if you metered off the trees, meter of the sky and repeat. Thanks to digital, you can see which exposure works best for the given situation, and if you want you can further adjust the shutter speed to something in the middle of the previous two exposures that creates a good exposure. However, metering off the trees should be fine.

Also, the ND filter isn't going to do anything except reduce the amount of light reaching the sensor; it won't add color to the sky, etc.

For that, get yourself a polarizer! You will be amazed at how much it will affect your photos.

Lastly, buy and read this book:

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/...9L._SS500_.jpg

It's only $15 on Amazon.com, and is worth much much more. Just read the reviews.

Edit: one more thing - while you are learning to create a good exposure, cut down the variables for yourself. Set the ISO to 400 and forget about it. Pick an aperture like f/8 for outside, and f/4 or f/2.8, depending on lens, for inside, and just mess around with shutter speeds until you get desirable exposures. This will help simplify things for you, and will quicken the learning curve.
05-17-2007, 10:19 PM
The Jackamo

Quote:

Originally Posted by dipstik

A couple things...

Most of those first few shots are way overexposed. What settings are you shooting at?

My suggestion: Learn to shoot in manual. For the standard mountain/sky shot on a sunny day, try this: select ISO 200, set the aperture to f/8, point the meter toward whatever you want exposed correctly (the sky or the light that falls on the trees) and adjust shutter speed until it indicates a correct exposure. Then, if you metered off the trees, meter of the sky and repeat. Thanks to digital, you can see which exposure works best for the given situation, and if you want you can further adjust the shutter speed to something in the middle of the previous two exposures that creates a good exposure. However, metering off the trees should be fine.

Also, the ND filter isn't going to do anything except reduce the amount of light reaching the sensor; it won't add color to the sky, etc.

For that, get yourself a polarizer! You will be amazed at how much it will affect your photos.

Edit: one more thing - while you are learning to create a good exposure, cut down the variables for yourself. Set the ISO to 400 and forget about it. Pick an aperture like f/8 for outside, and f/4 or f/2.8, depending on lens, for inside, and just mess around with shutter speeds until you get desirable exposures. This will help simplify things for you, and will quicken the learning curve.

for exposure lock, you can also meter off of your source in, say, Av mode and, while holding the shutter halfway down, hit the * button (2nd from the outside) with your thumb. this will lock the exposure values from that metering and allow you to use them in the shot. don't know if it's quicker than manually adjusting, but just another idea to throw out there.

i've actually been tending to stick to the sunny 16 and loony 11 (for astronomy shooting) rules lately, which i have never really done before.
05-18-2007, 07:59 AM
Tippster

Quote:

Originally Posted by PearlJam09

Cool. Just let me know what I have to do.

Couldn't find the disc last night (I was pretty fucked up from the Son Volt show.) I'll try locating it again tonight. PM me your address - I'll copy it and mail it to you.
05-18-2007, 08:31 AM
PearlJam09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tippster

Couldn't find the disc last night (I was pretty fucked up from the Son Volt show.) I'll try locating it again tonight. PM me your address - I'll copy it and mail it to you.

I found a friend with a digital rebel who's gonna hook me up with the CD. I think its probably the same software. If it's not, I'll let you know.

Cheers
05-18-2007, 01:54 PM
Natedogg

Come on, guys, Im not a total noob! :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shepherd Wong

What metering mode were you using? You might want to check your color space to see if you are in sRGB mode. Turn up in camera saturation if you don't think there is enough color?

To be honest, I dont even really know what a metering mode is.
Yup, in sRGB.
Aha, I started reading about the saturation, etc adjustments in the manual, although the selection interface is odd on the 20D. Ill have to play with this more... thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by dipstik

Most of those first few shots are way overexposed. What settings are you shooting at?

No shit! :biggrin: ;) The foregrounds are exposed decent, its the sky that gets totally blown out. See above--it seems like the range of exposure is much much tighter with digital than with transparency film. Ie., I could meter off a neutral object when shooting slides and the sky and landscape would look great with very little fuss on my end. Using the same approach with digital gets me into deep trouble. And I think Ive read that somewhere--transparency film is much more lenient when it comes to the 'correct' exposure.

Not sure what settings I was shooting at--that was about a year and a half ago...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dipstik

My suggestion: Learn to shoot in manual. For the standard mountain/sky shot on a sunny day, try this: select ISO 200, set the aperture to f/8, point the meter toward whatever you want exposed correctly (the sky or the light that falls on the trees) and adjust shutter speed until it indicates a correct exposure. Then, if you metered off the trees, meter of the sky and repeat.

I shoot exclusively in manual. Ill give your approach a go...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dipstik

Also, the ND filter isn't going to do anything except reduce the amount of light reaching the sensor; it won't add color to the sky, etc. For that, get yourself a polarizer! You will be amazed at how much it will affect your photos.

Yep, the graduated ND filter reduces the light by a few stops (I forget which one I bought, specifically) for the top half, and is clear for the bottom half. So what I was hoping to achieve by using it was to cancel the blown-out sky effect I was getting in my photographs.

Most, if not all of the photographs above were shot with a circular polarizer. You can see it especially in the film photos--the Vermont lake and the New Zealand rose photos.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dipstik

Lastly, buy and read this book: It's only $15 on Amazon.com, and is worth much much more. Just read the reviews..

Cool beans. Just picked it up at Barnes and Noble--$25, but fuck it. I was there--it was there--we were a match. :biggrin:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Jackamo

for exposure lock, you can also meter off of your source in, say, Av mode and, while holding the shutter halfway down, hit the * button (2nd from the outside) with your thumb. this will lock the exposure values from that metering and allow you to use them in the shot. don't know if it's quicker than manually adjusting, but just another idea to throw out there.

Cool. I may not use it, but I definitely like hearing different ways different people do things. Thanks! Keep em coming. And thanks everyone for the replies--keep em coming. :)
05-21-2007, 11:56 AM
smalls

out of curiosity, what are your parameters set at?

i was fiddling around with mine this week and found marked improvements.
05-21-2007, 07:12 PM
fool

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natedogg

To be honest, I dont even really know what a metering mode is.

Nate, this (http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glos...etering_01.htm ) explains a little. Though I still don't completely understand it.

On that note, what determines what you "meter" off of? Is it usually spot/partial metering? Does matrix/evaluative metering exist on DSLR's (20D, 30D, etc.)?

Thanks.
05-23-2007, 07:56 AM
Natedogg

Quote:

Originally Posted by smalls

out of curiosity, what are your parameters set at? i was fiddling around with mine this week and found marked improvements.

Cool link. Yeah, Ive been playing with them half-heartedly (mostly cuz I have been working like a dog lately), and havent seen much difference. I dont like the menu selection for parameters--it confuses me. This link should help... thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fool

Nate, this (http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glos...etering_01.htm ) explains a little. Though I still don't completely understand it.

Nice, thanks. Im gonna have to delve into this a bit more... This is definitely something I know absolutely nothing about.
06-01-2007, 01:12 PM
Natedogg

Ive been reading a little here and there... could some of my washed out'ed ness be a result of a narrow dynamic range?? Is DR something I can change on the camera, or is it a constant 8 stops or whatever it happens to be for the 20D?

(BTW: in looking at a few of the photos I first posted [namely the Silas photo and the second river photo] look super dark on this computer screen. They looked significantly lighter on my Sony VAIO screen at home... to the point where you could see Silas finishing his name in that photo. Not sure if anyone else is having that problem...)
06-03-2007, 06:36 PM
MeatPuppet

[QUOTE=Natedogg;1297180]

Quote:

Ive been reading a little here and there... could some of my washed out'ed ness be a result of a narrow dynamic range??

The washed out skies with properly exposed foreground, very well could be. The tonal qualities of the properly exposed areas are more a matter of camera settings and post processing.

Quote:

Is DR something I can change on the camera, or is it a constant 8 stops or whatever it happens to be for the 20D?

No changing the DR on the 20D. It's a fixed capability of the sensor. The only camera I know of with a variable DR is the Fujifilm s3 an s5 pro.

I sold my Nikon D200 a couple of months ago and bought a S5 Pro for this reason. So far it's been fantastic.
06-08-2007, 09:06 AM
backpack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natedogg

(BTW: in looking at a few of the photos I first posted [namely the Silas photo and the second river photo] look super dark on this computer screen. They looked significantly lighter on my Sony VAIO screen at home... to the point where you could see Silas finishing his name in that photo. Not sure if anyone else is having that problem...)

You do realize that they'll look different depending on what screen you view them on, right? Using an uncalibrated monitor to edit photos for printing is just asking for weird shit.

Note: I use shitty lab monitors for most of my photoshopping because I do it at work to kill time. I don't recommend that path if you want prints to look perfect.

Also: RAW files really do help.