Cat Skiing compared to Heli Skiing: Suggestions for both?

Ok, I know there truly IS no comparison, but I am thinking that my group of 4 may have a MUCH easier time affording a cat trip of four days up in BC vs a heli-trip of 4 days in the same areas of BC.

I have looked into TLH and Mica Heli, and they look amazing...but also anywhere between 4K-8K....ouch....

I have looked at Bald Face Cat Skiing, and another one outside of Whistler that the name is now slipping my mind, and they are in the range of 1.5K to 2K, which is MUCH more manageable...

I guess what I am asking is that if any mags that have done both (and not just one day cat skiing at Keystone, for example) could give me examples of each, and the measurable difference between the two. I am getting the impression through my research that cat skiing is MUCH better than some people know or give it credit for, and heli skiing can be a nightmare based upon others in your group, down days, etc....

I have searched for both on this forum, but have had no luck finding something comparing the two directly (relative terrain, vert, etc)

This is my first trip to BC, so wouldn't be bad to combine it with Whistler, etc, but not necessary...

Thanks for all advice in advance, as I am a Heli-JONG....:)

Never skied from a heli, and it was a dream for a long time, but after a few cat trips with different operators I can't see paying the extra cash for a heli unless it's in Ak.
Seems like any pictures I see of heli trips show a lot of low angle powder farming, whereas my cat experiences have always involved steep terrain with lots of cliffs and features.
Although, if anyone wants to put up a wad of cash, I'd be happy to spend a few days in a heli for research purposes.

I dunno,i've heard mixed reviews. I flew with CPG's last month,i scheduled a day in the cat after a day in the bird. On my way back to the lodge,after the first day flyin, i was makin small talk with some guys next to me,told em i was goin on the cat the next day. They told me that i should cancel and try to get on the heli instead cause it would be such a huge disappointment. I took their advice and cancelled-got on the heli instead,luckily someone backed out. So i guess i cant really comment on what its like to cat-ski. But for what its worth,my guide was telling me that cat-skiing sucks. He said your usually with weak groups and its a very slow pace,and that the terrain was pretty mild. We flew over their cat terrain on day two and it DID look a lot less rowdy. This was at CPG's,terrain varies. I dunno though,sounds like you wanna fill the cat with your friends-thats prolly the way to go. I could think of worse things than cat skiin in BC. Shit,just go for the HELI!! Its only debt. You'll be glad you did,just ask girlski or that JimS dude.

You could also try and fly for single days like i did,i spent 850 a day instead of a 4-5k package. But your kinda taking a gamble with weather. Just don't think about it or you'll jinx yourself,worked for me. That package does include some nice meals and lodging though,FWIW.

Edit: i can vouch that there was NO farming of powder where i flew. And it was far from low angle. Your heli experience may vary

yeah, it sounds like it depends on the operations involved. I know what you are saying about the low-angle, mild Cat stuff, but I have also seen some outfits that the terrain rivals heli shit....

on the flipside, I have also seen some heli photos of REALLY low angle, Harvested pow....just don't want to be disappointed in my "dream trip"...:(

Thanks for the advice, and anyone else can keep it coming...perhaps more examples of outfits would help out a lot!

For the price of one day of Heli at say CMH you can get 3 days at Valhalla Powcats. Sure you don't get as much vertical. But on a storm day you'll ski. And ski well. Plus, their terrain is for realz.

Heli hands down. Of course it depends on the operation, weather, guides, clients, etc, etc.

But if it all comes together in a heli, cats don't even come close.

Good cat ops to which I've been:

Mt. Bailey - easily the sleeper among cat ops. Tons of snow and steeps and up to 20k/day of vert. In Oregon!

Monashee Powder Adventures - I went the second year of the operation run by Nic and Ali (Holmes-Smith?). It absolutely kicked ass, 25k vert days, ridiculously deep snow and Nic let us jump cliffs. They're running a different operation now (Wildhorse?).

Retallack - Amazing potential, great tree skiing, but had some bad experiences with the owners who were not skiers who charged us full price for a day when the cat broke and we got 2 hours of skiing in.

Only heli I've been in was flying up to the saddle between the Lyskamm and the Marguerite on the Monte Rosa. I've omitted the BC heli ops because the $1000/day makes my Scottish soul writhe.

First off. I've skitoured the terrain that TLH, CMH and Mica use/ I've also skitoured the old Baldface tenure (but not the new one, and also ski toured the Powder Mtn Cat skiing ops (near Whistler)

So my perspective is that of a ski tourer so i can't speak to how they run their ops or the amount of vertical you get, all I can speak to is terrain.

TLH's terrain is pretty amazing. It runs from the southern Chilcotin to down near pemberton. The tracks i saw were in low-angle powder and were very much powder-farming. I have been told that if you book a heli with pretty much your own group and are capable skiers and will listen to the guide then they will let you go a little more aggressive on the terrain. So the potential there is great but it kind of depends on who you get stuck with. Lots of treeskiing possibities. their birds are both big and small so you get a bit of variety with groups. Tends to be a bit better weather then the rest of the coast mountains.

Mica's tenure is amazing. It basically covers off a bit of the western Selkirks and a bit of the north monashees. I don;'t quite know how far south you can go but the potential there is unreal. they run smaller birds so you get a bit more of a private experience. the lines I saw were in trees and they were quite aggressive - unusual for me as I'm used to seeing heli skiers get herded along in mellow bowls like sheep. It's very easy to get downtime there as the weather can be brutal in that area.

anyways its a bit of unspoken thing with BC heliskiing but there is an assload of downtime. Its quite possible to book a week trip and ski just a few days.

Baldface and Powder Mountain.

well catskiing ops tend to run a lot more regularly then heli ski ops

Baldface has great potential. Powder Mountain's terrain is a tad more limited.

The good part about both is that if you get shutdown you can book out to a town or a resort just to play in the trees. The issue is that they rarely get shutdown as both tenures have a ton of terrain.

Baldface attracts a slightly more skilled crowd. In my three times seeing a powder mountain group ski I've seen gapers in the group all three times. It's just the nature of running a cat ski op near a big resort. You get all kinds of clietns and not all people who want to try cat skiing know how to ski powder. Unbelievable but true - I've seen snowplows down beautiful pow slops.

As with heli ski - if you book out a big group and get a cat and if you're good skiers who will listen to the guide then they will tend to let you run a lot more rowdy lines.

like I said it's just my opinion

I agree with Lee, your experience with heli or cat will only be as good as the group you are with. That is if you get stuck with lame skiers or boarders, or ones who don't follow the guides' instructions, you will ski intermediate runs all day whether it's by heli or cat.

Playharder has organized our group for cat skiing the past couple of years and it has been awesome each time. We had almost enough people to fill a cat, and then spoke to the owners at the appropriate time to request they fill out our group with similarly accomplished skiers.

Last year at Monashee that left the other cat filled with a mix of experts to beginners, and in talking with some of them later they had a frustrating couple of days. This year at Mustang Powder (Nick and Ali's new place), the other group actually had a few people who were planning to try snowboarding for the first time ever in powder during one of their days. I can only imagine how well that worked out for the group.

Basically I would never do either cat or heli if we only had a few people because your odds of getting stuck with lamos is way too high. But get together a good group, tell the guides you are willing to follow their instructions to a T, and you will be given all the leeway that the snow conditions allow.

One thing to consider with heli, which I have not experienced but have heard from people who were lucky enough to do it quite a bit, is that some people are all about the vertical. Their sole purpose is to rack up as much vertical as possible and that often means doing endless laps of intermediate slopes where they can make the best time.

They both suck ass. Get a sled and ride heli/cat terrain at your own leisure. Guarantee you will get waaaayyyy more vertical in a day by riding a sled than a cat or helio.

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Originally Posted by Eldo

I agree with Lee, your experience with heli or cat will only be as good as the group you are with. That is if you get stuck with lame skiers or boarders, or ones who don't follow the guides' instructions, you will ski intermediate runs all day whether it's by heli or cat.

Playharder has organized our group for cat skiing the past couple of years and it has been awesome each time. We had almost enough people to fill a cat, and then spoke to the owners at the appropriate time to request they fill out our group with similarly accomplished skiers.

Last year at Monashee that left the other cat filled with a mix of experts to beginners, and in talking with some of them later they had a frustrating couple of days. This year at Mustang Powder (Nick and Ali's new place), the other group actually had a few people who were planning to try snowboarding for the first time ever in powder during one of their days. I can only imagine how well that worked out for the group.

Basically I would never do either cat or heli if we only had a few people because your odds of getting stuck with lamos is way too high. But get together a good group, tell the guides you are willing to follow their instructions to a T, and you will be given all the leeway that the snow conditions allow.

One thing to consider with heli, which I have not experienced but have heard from people who were lucky enough to do it quite a bit, is that some people are all about the vertical. Their sole purpose is to rack up as much vertical as possible and that often means doing endless laps of intermediate slopes where they can make the best time.

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I had the same problems at Monashee and we had a group of 8. Two slow, weak skiers was enough to make the guide cater to them. Four is a small group. If you luck out though and get a strong group they have awesome terrain there.

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Originally Posted by sledneckripper

They both suck ass. Get a sled and ride heli/cat terrain at your own leisure. Guarantee you will get waaaayyyy more vertical in a day by riding a sled than a cat or helio.

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I know you're just trying to stir the pot and i know you're not from around these parts but i guarantee that this would not go down well with local sledders or tour operators in any of the places this guy is planning to go.

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Originally Posted by gearjunkie1

I had the same problems at Monashee and we had a group of 8. Two slow, weak skiers was enough to make the guide cater to them. Four is a small group. If you luck out though and get a strong group they have awesome terrain there.

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yeah, this is a major fear of mine. But, I am very confident in my group of four to have a good time, so that is why I was thinking of Mica heli (groups of four). That being said, it seems as though Bald Face and Monashee cat tours are pretty damn good, and as mentioned before they are closer to resorts, so we could always check them out a day or two as well...and MUCH cheaper...

Decisions, decisions...

A friend of mine guides both modes, and says that if you are into it for the skiing - then go CAT! If You want the thrills of the heli. then pony up the bucks, and expect ski a lot of wind affected snow...

Regardless of which operation you choose. They will always cater to the weakest link in the group.

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

I know you're just trying to stir the pot and i know you're not from around these parts but i guarantee that this would not go down well with local sledders or tour operators in any of the places this guy is planning to go.

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No, I'm not from B.C. and don't really know the terrain all the much, but was mostly talking from experience and riding in other states and countries. A sled is always faster and more efficient than a heli or cat. You don't have to deal with gapers, guides, overpriced meals, etc. You go out on your own and slay the terrain you want to slay.

Why woldn't this work in B.C.?

bring your doobies:

http://www.alaskagold.com/rastacat/#

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Originally Posted by sledneckripper

No, I'm not from B.C. and don't really know the terrain all the much, but was mostly talking from experience and riding in other states and countries. A sled is always faster and more efficient than a heli or cat. You don't have to deal with gapers, guides, overpriced meals, etc. You go out on your own and slay the terrain you want to slay.

Why woldn't this work in B.C.?

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The heli and cat ops employ locals and bring in a lot of money to the local community. Most of the sledders are locals. There is so much terrain in BC (even the crowded coast but especially the kootenays and selkirks) that there's an unwritten understanding between the local sledders to stay out of the local commercial terrain. It's basically just not done.

i can think of one exception where it got ugly - near Meadow creek cat ops there were alberta sledders who kept poaching the Drury's terrain. after some other local sledders "gently" reminded the albertans that you just don't do those kind of things in the kootenays, the albertans moved their schtick far far away.

i don't know how crowded or how heated it is in the states but here sledders, skitouring hippies, sled-skiers, commercial ops basically get along fine for the most part

anyway sorry to derail powtrons thread.

I am seriously looking into Monashee Cat tours, as the info and the terrain look great...cannot be the price of $1699 for a 3 day trip in us dollars for prime season on that terrain. Would also give us a chance to do Whistler, etc for a couple of days after, before flying home...

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Originally Posted by PowTron

I am seriously looking into Monashee Cat tours, as the info and the terrain look great...cannot be the price of $1699 for a 3 day trip in us dollars for prime season on that terrain. Would also give us a chance to do Whistler, etc for a couple of days after, before flying home...

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If you're looking at Monashee, it's good but I'd suggest looking over to Mustang instead. A little more accesible, better (imo) terrain and the staff/owners are awesome people.
Mustang is what Buster was trying to remember above (Nic & Ali). Nic is a blast, scouting drops for us and just generally making sure you're getting the most out of it.

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Originally Posted by PowTron

I am seriously looking into Monashee Cat tours, as the info and the terrain look great...cannot be the price of $1699 for a 3 day trip in us dollars for prime season on that terrain. Would also give us a chance to do Whistler, etc for a couple of days after, before flying home...

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They do have totally wicked terrain if you get a strong group. I have only been there twice though. The snow seems to be pretty good for getting freshies too, especially this year. Snow packs are above normal this year. The food is very good and as well the lodging is comfy. We did have one of the weak skiers opt out of a run or two here and there so we could get steeper stuff on those runs.

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

The heli and cat ops employ locals and bring in a lot of money to the local community. Most of the sledders are locals. There is so much terrain in BC (even the crowded coast but especially the kootenays and selkirks) that there's an unwritten understanding between the local sledders to stay out of the local commercial terrain. It's basically just not done.

i can think of one exception where it got ugly - near Meadow creek cat ops there were alberta sledders who kept poaching the Drury's terrain. after some other local sledders "gently" reminded the albertans that you just don't do those kind of things in the kootenays, the albertans moved their schtick far far away.

i don't know how crowded or how heated it is in the states but here sledders, skitouring hippies, sled-skiers, commercial ops basically get along fine for the most part

anyway sorry to derail powtrons thread.

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Cool. Thanks. I had no idea. Sounds like things work out for you up there. Unfortunately, us sled skiers bang heads with the free heelin' hippies and the guides all the time.

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Originally Posted by PlayHarder

Mustang is what Buster was trying to remember above (Nic & Ali). Nic is a blast, scouting drops for us and just generally making sure you're getting the most out of it.

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I should remember. Wasn't it Mustang K. Snarfer who was able to find a decomposition of the invariant Poincare' group, thereby winning two free beers. But his real claim to fame was the acquisition of the "Silver Snout", the prize given to that self absorbed member of the group who always took the first turns.

ive done both and its really no fun if the bird cannot fly. Baldface has great terrain and an amazine staff.

Heli sking is more of a high energy go go go kinda vibe while cat skiing due to the longer and quieter ride up has a different vibe, more conversation, more social than heli skiing in general.

Terrain is alway gonna be dictated by what they have and what nature lets you on.

Cats go when you cannot fly, one big advantage there.

Helis enable you to get probably two top three times the skiing in the same time.

In general cat runs are about 1500-2000 ft while an average heli run is about 3-4000ft.

Helis can access terrain the cats simply cannot get to.

Cats are a lot cheaper, but nothing beats riding around in the big mountains
in a heli.....nothing.

You can get a sucky group that holds you back on either but in an A-star with 4 buddies you can play that card by yourselves. Now a 212 with 10-12 people in BC is the same as a cat....random draw if you don't fill it yourself.

They both deliver a positive experience, cost difference is relative to the amount of skiing you'll get and how much cooler the heli is.

Heli experience at Wigglies, Diamond Peaks. Panarama and lots w/CPG
Cat at CPG only..... I've had some very good days there when we couldn't fly.

They both can deliver the day of your life....just depends on the day.

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Originally Posted by wstdeep

Heli sking is more of a high energy go go go kinda vibe while cat skiing due to the longer and quieter ride up has a different vibe, more conversation, more social than heli skiing in general.

Terrain is alway gonna be dictated by what they have and what nature lets you on.

Cats go when you cannot fly, one big advantage there.

Helis enable you to get probably two top three times the skiing in the same time.

In general cat runs are about 1500-2000 ft while an average heli run is about 3-4000ft.

Helis can access terrain the cats simply cannot get to.

Cats are a lot cheaper, but nothing beats riding around in the big mountains
in a heli.....nothing.

You can get a sucky group that holds you back on either but in an A-star with 4 buddies you can play that card by yourselves. Now a 212 with 10-12 people in BC is the same as a cat....random draw if you don't fill it yourself.

They both deliver a positive experience, cost difference is relative to the amount of skiing you'll get and how much cooler the heli is.

Heli experience at Wigglies, Diamond Peaks. Panarama and lots w/CPG
Cat at CPG only..... I've had some very good days there when we couldn't fly.

They both can deliver the day of your life....just depends on the day.

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We are still throwing around the heli idea, but we are seriously considering Mustang or Monshee for cat trips....Mustang's terrain looks SICK...

I've skied with both baldface and valhalla. Both can ski their terrain in any kind of winter weather. This December with Valhalla we had a gaper snowboarder who kept complaining that the terrain wasn't open enough for him. The rest of our crew, luckily, were locals who could rip. We skied amazing terrain the whole time. Pillows, cliffs, aprons, glades, bowls, you name it.



But I am no way near an expert when it comes to knowing about heli-skiing as I've never done it. Its kind of pricey on a teacher's salary. As is cat skiing but Catskiing is a little more doable. So you'll never see me on a Heli unless someone wants to be my benefactor.

the ONLY place to pay for heli in my opinion is AK. the scale of AK skiing is bigger than anywhere in the world. they fly you to places that are extremely hard to access, so you wont find a bunch of smelly hippies tracking out the hill before you get there as most lower 48 and BC heli ops farm pow and fly in places you can easily skin to on your own. the disadvantage to heli are down days. you could fly all the way to AK for a 5 day heli ski and only get in 2 or 3 days, but they'll be the best 2 or 3 days of your life.

cat skiing depends on the terrain accessed and the adventurous nature of the operators. Ive heard amazing things about chatter creek cat skiing in BC as far as sick terrain. the advantage to cat skiing is no down days for weather.

Shoot, I haven't done cat or heli. Just me and my skins for backcountry type terrain.

It seems as if heli skiing has turned into some all inclusive package deal rather than a 'show up and pay for a single ride' type of deal. Business-wise, that makes sense. Personally, I'd rather just plunk down cash for a lift to single big-ass scary line that I couldn't get myself when I know the conditions are right.

I guess it all comes down to knowing what you want and what you are willing to accept for terrain.

Yeah,i'd suggest you save your pennies and your heli-virginity until AK. Its only right.

I hate to say it but I agree with sledneck, I have alot of time in the helis and they are an expensive thirsty beast of a machine. For the price of travel, food, accomadation, and one day of heli skiing, you could purchase a decent sled and get many days of use out of it. Also you get to go wherever you want and don't have to worry about having a guide telling you where to ski(I hate snowfarming!). (disclaimer: If you have no avy experience and want to be safe go with a guide, they can take you to the goods and get you down safely.They are a great thing to have in unfamiliar territory)

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Originally Posted by powder11

they fly you to places that are extremely hard to access, so you wont find a bunch of smelly hippies tracking out the hill before you get there as most lower 48 and BC heli ops farm pow and fly in places you can easily skin to on your own.

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:eek: :eek: :) :)

I haven't done either but have been seriously contemplating doing either a heli or cat trip. In reading the comments of those who have done it, I'm a bit surprised to hear that there are a lot of gapers on the helis. What's the deal?Rich folks with too much money and time on corduroy at Deer Valley or Beaver Creek?

$$$ per vert is, or can be better on heli.

large, fast cat day = 15-20K ft

large fast heli day = 30-50K ft.

the terrain, speed, snow etc, will all be about the same, in the same terrain, same day.

you can only ski as fast as the slowest skier, and a steep as the guide thinks is safe for the group and the snow.

heli just gets you to the top faster for another round.

heli day = $600-1000/day

cat = $300-600/day

if you do standby it will be the low end of the price, and if you do acc'm food etc it will be the upper end

I'd add that you need time with an outfit before they'll take you into the shit... depends on their philosophy, the guide's impression of your abilities, and avy status. If you can only spring for a couple of days, might as well go wherever is getting good snow that year... Heli vs. Cat is not going to be the issue day one.

I've heli'd Chugach, Bugaboos, Rockies & Coast Range. Greatest diff was relationship I'd built with the outfit.

I 2nd the issue of slowest skiier; think hard about who you're with, and try and fill at least your lift with similar abilities.

Ask the outfit if they'll leapfrog you if you start catching up with the lift in front of you. Some will, some won't. I've spent a fair amount of time watching the group in front of us boarding their chopper... not optimal.

That said, it's sooooo much fun. You'll dig it the most.

I wouldn't necessarily say they cater to the weakest person. My guide was Jim Conway and we routinely went on stuff that was def testing the guy in the one piece. The guide always went down first and then we'd follow one by one in whatever order we wished,so you could ski as fast as you wanted,and absolutely NO farming at CPG's. There are so many variables though(weather,guide,company,terrain,group dynamics,etc)and its almost best not to think about. These factors will come into play WHEREVER you choose. You almost have to leave it up to the heli/cat powers that be. Oh,and they ask you beforehand what level skier you are and pair you accordingly. But there def is an element of, uh...filthy rich dudes. I wouldn't call em ALL gapers,alot of them could rip for being wealthy,older fellas. A lot of these guys only ski once a season and this is how they do it. A heli package.

But,i would never go to a place that made us farm pow. Who would wanna pay for that? Sounds like the cat may be the way you wanna go for this particular trip.

FWIW,I spent 850 and got the best day of my life. Soo good that i cancelled my cat trip the next day for the heli=the 2nd best day of my life.

I have been considering checking out this place.

A freind of mine got back from a week at Points North a few weeks ago. Due to weather she only got to ski one day out of the week. She said it was the best day ever, but she didn't exactly like spending a few Gs for one day of skiing and five days of dodgeball.

I've never been to Island Lake Lodge, but I would imagine that anyplace Scot Schmidt is part of the ownership has some gnar terrain.

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Originally Posted by Plakespear

A freind of mine got back from a week at Points North a few weeks ago. Due to weather she only got to ski one day out of the week. She said it was the best day ever, but she didn't exactly like spending a few Gs for one day of skiing and five days of dodgeball.

I've never been to Island Lake Lodge, but I would imagine that anyplace Scot Schmidt is part of the ownership has some gnar terrain.

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Well Island Lake owns Powder Cowboy, and I wasn't really impressed with the latter. Terrain was modest in elevation, and therefore vulnerable to the weather issues that plague nearby Fernie. The steeps were fun, but short. A relatively low % of the terrain faced within 45 degrees of due N.

As much as I didn't like their co-owner at the time, Valhalla was way, way better. Now that Lindsay is (I think) gone and Martin is still there, I'd be psyched to return. Even better, they are now teamed with a heli-op so you can get in a day on the heli if the conditions are right - low risk, high reward.