Speeding Ticket While Passing Question

Got a ticket for 70 in a 55 while passing today. Was out in the passing zone when a car came over a hill, so I speeded up to get back into my lane within a safe amount of time and the on coming car was a state patrol. I am not too worried about it, but am wondering if there is any legal means to fight a ticket like this. I am assume the speed limit is the speed limit and thats why i got the ticket, but thought i would ask if anyone knows of special circumstances because it was safer to speed up passing. I am in washington state if that matters.

you're fucked

I have no idea in WA but I've been told that in MA your allowed to go as fast as you need (within reason) when passing.

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Originally Posted by ccwaskier

I am assume the speed limit is the speed limit and thats why i got the ticket

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yep....at no time is it legal to go over the speed limit

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Originally Posted by dfinn

I have no idea in WA but I've been told that in MA your allowed to go as fast as you need (within reason) when passing.

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I have been told that too, but since i got the ticket i am assuing thats not the case. I'll probably just pay up and not worry about it.

last time i asked about the passing thing i was basically told your only supposed to go the speed limit while passing (yeah right) and that to pass is to pass a car going slower than the speed limit (all this from a cop friend reading the rule) however obviously most poeple speed while passing and it is speeding and actually up to the ticketing officer if a ticket is warrented. Your actually not supposed ot speed up to pass if a oncoming car is coming but are supposed to slow down and fall in behind the car again. Now that is what i was told by my cop friend so if it applies to your state or whatever i dont know. Or even if it applies to my state who knows (cops do make up odd stories sometimes)

Your best bet would be to check the "im guilty but want to explain" box on the ticket and go to the judge and explain and just say you thought it was ok to speed up to pass and hope he lets you off easy

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Originally Posted by dfinn

I have no idea in WA but I've been told that in MA your allowed to go as fast as you need (within reason) when passing.

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In drivers ed they told us that you should legally never pass unless you dont have to go over the limit to do so.

But how did he get you? Radar? or Estimation? if it was estimation if you fight it the cop probly wont show up and youll be fine, but otherwise I dont know. I had a friend who got pardoned on a 90 mph ticket just because, took it to court and they basically said drive better. This is in NH though.

But I think if you fought it and said what had happened you might be ok, but I wouldnt listen to me.

ccwaskier, This is advice from my friend who is a former Oregon State Trooper. You can beat a ticket by hiring an attorney and demanding a full jury trial. If you think that you are not willing to pay (for the lawyer); Remember that if you lose by pleading any kind of guilt to the judge or just by paying the fine that your insurance rates will go up anyway. At the least you could fight the ticket yourself. I know nothing. Gary in Oregon

your allowed 15 mph over the limit in order to safely pass here in MT. I think CO has a similar law. You should look it up!!

The real question is how could even tell accurately that you were speeding, if he was coming the other direction driving a patrol car?

i think state patrol cars have forward scaning radar so they can get you head on while driving

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Originally Posted by ccwaskier

thought i would ask if anyone knows of special circumstances because it was safer to speed up passing. I am in washington state if that matters.

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Yes:

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Originally Posted by RCW 46.61.425

Minimum speed regulation — Passing slow moving vehicle.

(1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law: PROVIDED, That a person following a vehicle driving at less than the legal maximum speed and desiring to pass such vehicle may exceed the speed limit, subject to the provisions of RCW 46.61.120 on highways having only one lane of traffic in each direction, at only such a speed and for only such a distance as is necessary to complete the pass with a reasonable margin of safety.

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Reference:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.61.425

The vehicle you passed was going really slow...well below the posted speed limit, right? :)

-Astro

Washington has similar laws 15 over unless the car being passed was traveling the speed limit or more or that's what I remember :rolleyes: the last time I got pulled over going to Crystal, same as you.

If you just plan on taking the hit and dont what to spend the time fighing it. Take a look at your insurance if you have no tickets pay up or defer it, but if you defer you have to say clean for 1 year and the ticket goes away. But you can only do this once every 7 years. If you have several fight it. In WA it seems to be easy for a lawyer to get the ticket dropped with the laws the way they are. We dont have points btw.

King County I've used http://www.mucklestone.com/ kind of spendy but has not failed me or many friends yet.

WTG Astropax!

ccwaskier you gonna git off!

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Originally Posted by Summit

WTG Astropax!

ccwaskier you gonna git off!

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15MPH over posted during a pass sounds perfectly reasonable and prudent to me, provided it was a safe/legal pass to begin with.

If that's the case, I would fight it tooth and nail.

-Astro

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Originally Posted by Maier

The real question is how could even tell accurately that you were speeding, if he was coming the other direction driving a patrol car?

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Police are trained in visual estimation and it is admissible in court.

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Originally Posted by Maier

The real question is how could even tell accurately that you were speeding, if he was coming the other direction driving a patrol car?

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Modern traffic RADAR, such as the outstanding "Stalker Dual SL", is fully capable of measuring the speed of vehicles...

• In Front of the Patrol Moving the Same Direction
• In Front of the Patrol Approaching in the Opposite Direction
• Behind the Patrol Moving in the Same Direction
• Behind the Patrol Receding in the Opposite Direction

http://www.stalkerradar.com/law_dual.shtml

-Astro

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Originally Posted by 4matic

Police are trained in visual estimation and it is admissible in court.

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Not an entirely accurate statement. Law Enforcement Officer eyes are not calibrated, and it is very difficult to prove a speeding case on visual estimation alone.

As far as RADAR goes, it is generally accepted that the officer needs to establish the VAR's rule in order to make the RADAR enforced citation stick:

(V)isual - Officer VISUALLY observes a vehicle that appears to be speeding
(A)udible - Officer obtains an AUDIBLE signal (Doppler) from the RADAR unit
(R)ADAR - Officer confirms speed with the RADAR unit.

A visual speed estimation is only (1/3) of the total package, so to speak.

-Astro

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Originally Posted by AstroPax

Not an entirely accurate statement. Law Enforcement Officer eyes are not calibrated, and it is very difficult to prove a speeding case on visual estimation alone.

As far as RADAR goes, it is generally accepted that the officer needs to establish the VAR's rule in order to make the RADAR enforced citation stick:

(V)isual - Officer VISUALLY observes a vehicle that appears to be speeding
(A)udible - Officer obtains an AUDIBLE signal (Doppler) from the RADAR unit
(R)ADAR - Officer confirms speed with the RADAR unit.

A visual speed estimation is only (1/3) of the total package, so to speak.

-Astro

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And that Radar better be calibrated or it gets thrown out too.

What did the cop write on the ticket for the violation? That's what you're fighting. He might have gotten you just for speeding, or passing on a hill (was it a "no passing zone" or double yellow?).

Same thing happened to me in NV; I searched for passing laws here, but apparently it's not cool to pass at a speed greater than the limit. Gayest shit I've ever heard. So if you're passing, and someone else is behind you, getting ready to pass the slow car... and you see an oncoming car, you're supposed to brake, and get back behind the slow car?! Yeah right, like you're going to get let back in the line. IMHO, you'd be more of a danger in a situation like that, or if you pass at a slow speed; you're presenting yourself to oncoming traffic for a longer period of time.



....just another shining example of how common sense is always valued here in NV.



...fuckers. :D

Yeah, every state varies a little on the passing thing. My understanding of it was that the speed limit is the speed limit. If the guy is going 47 in a 50, you just have to suck it up and stay behind him because (technically) you're not permitted to go over the speed limit at any time. Even if your state permits you to exceed the limit in a passing situation, 15 over is probably well over the accepted limit.

Most radar are completely capable of picking up the speed of oncoming traffic. As long as the officer has a consistant speed going, which he probably did, it's easy for the radar to read an oncoming car's speed.

All the ideas of fighting is are interesting. A lot of times, fighting it just makes things worse. You really need to know what you're getting yourself into. If you're diriving record is good, you should probably just plead guilty and pay up. You might end up losing more in the end by spending all that time, money, and energy fighting it.

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Originally Posted by Skidawg

Yeah, every state varies a little on the passing thing. My understanding of it was that the speed limit is the speed limit. If the guy is going 47 in a 50, you just have to suck it up and stay behind him because (technically) you're not permitted to go over the speed limit at any time. Even if your state permits you to exceed the limit in a passing situation, 15 over is probably well over the accepted limit.

Most radar are completely capable of picking up the speed of oncoming traffic. As long as the officer has a consistant speed going, which he probably did, it's easy for the radar to read an oncoming car's speed.

All the ideas of fighting is are interesting. A lot of times, fighting it just makes things worse. You really need to know what you're getting yourself into. If you're diriving record is good, you should probably just plead guilty and pay up. You might end up losing more in the end by spending all that time, money, and energy fighting it.

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This could very well be the worst advice I've read in the thread... The law was already stated that you can speed to pass. And I don't see how fighting it could end up worse, if you somehow did lose (and they don't plea bargain), you'd just end up paying the ticket as if you plead guilty, plus a relatively small court fee.

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Originally Posted by AstroPax

Not an entirely accurate statement. Law Enforcement Officer eyes are not calibrated, and it is very difficult to prove a speeding case on visual estimation alone.

As far as RADAR goes, it is generally accepted that the officer needs to establish the VAR's rule in order to make the RADAR enforced citation stick:

(V)isual - Officer VISUALLY observes a vehicle that appears to be speeding
(A)udible - Officer obtains an AUDIBLE signal (Doppler) from the RADAR unit
(R)ADAR - Officer confirms speed with the RADAR unit.

A visual speed estimation is only (1/3) of the total package, so to speak.

-Astro

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VAR is a slam dunk. I got pulled over and asked the cop if he used radar and he said he doesn't need radar to issue a citation. Visual is enough. It is not difficult to prove.

For example. Mr. Officer is coming out of the donut shop and sees me race by at twice the speed limit. I see him and slow down. Officer makes pursuit stops me and writes a ticket. My word against his.. If he doesn't have VAR it might make it easier to fight but visual estimation is all a court needs to convict.

"A police officer’s visual estimate of the speed of a moving vehicle is alone sufficient to support a speeding conviction where the record demonstrates that the officer received proper training in visual estimations and his observations were reasonably accurate."


Urban Legend #1

“The officer refused to show me the reading on the radar gun. There is no proof of my speed so I cannot be convicted.”

There is no law in any state that requires an officer to show you the reading on the radar or laser gun. Most jurisdictions discourage this as a matter of safety. If the officer does show you, it is a courtesy only. If the officer says you were speeding that is all the proof the judge needs to find you guilty. Most courts will accept a simple visual estimate by an officer without speed detection from any device.

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Originally Posted by Dawn Patrol

This could very well be the worst advice I've read in the thread... The law was already stated that you can speed to pass. And I don't see how fighting it could end up worse, if you somehow did lose (and they don't plea bargain), you'd just end up paying the ticket as if you plead guilty, plus a relatively small court fee.

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Spending hundreds of dollars attempting to defend yourself and losing in the end is bad - period, especially when he got you "red handed". Going in front of the judge with a good driving record and admitting you screwed up is defeinately better. You're likely going to deal with less punishment. It might not even make it to your driving record.

The law states that you can speed to pass 1) if the vehicle you're passing is impeding "the normal and reasonable movement of traffic". This likely means the vehicle in question is driving WELL under the speed limit. This judgement is the officer's and clocking a guy 15 over the limit would lead any normal person to believe the car he was passing wasn't impeding "the normal and reasonable movement of traffic". And 2) "at only such a speed and for only such a distance as is necessary to complete the pass with a reasonable margin of safety." 70 MPH on a 2-lane highway is probably not considered safe.

There's no defending yourself in court here. You'll get stomped on. Hiring a lawyer that's even going to take the case is going to be expensive. Sometimes, you're just guilty.

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Originally Posted by ccwaskier

i think state patrol cars have forward scaning radar so they can get you head on while driving

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The radar used here can detect the speed of multiple cars simultaneously, meaning your speed AND the speed of the car you passed, the latter being the likely basis for your ticket if that car was going over 55 mph. The WSP also has discretion to ticket you on a subjective basis if the trooper believes your speed is unsafe for the conditions (even if you're going under the speed limit). If there was any sign of snow or ice on the road and you passed someone at 70, that might also be a basis for the ticket.

Judge may cut you a partial break, maybe 25% off. Previous speeding tix?don't waste your time.

If the ticket's expensive enough that the 'discount' will cover the time you will spend sitting in court, not working, skiing, drinking ect... have fun & good luck.

I wish the Washington State Highway Patrol would spend some time pulling people over who drive 35 MPH on the way to Stevens Pass or Crystal. Apparently, those "Delay of 5 Vehicles Illegal" signs don't mean anything.

Especially, this time of year, Mom and Pop load up the minivan and decide to take the kids and all their rental gear up for some skiing fun. Of course, dear old Pop is uncomfortable driving two lane roads. He gets even more uncomfortable when he sees the sign "Snow Removal Equipment on Road Ahead." So, he cautiously slows down to 35 MPH until he gets to a passing zone where he gooses the old minivan up to 65 MPH so that he can make up a little time and keep other drivers from passing him without speeding. After the passing zone, he slows down again and prides himself on how safely he drives.

End rant...

Sorry to hear about your speeding ticket.

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Originally Posted by cloudpeak

I wish the Washington State Highway Patrol would spend some time pulling people over who drive 35 MPH on the way to Stevens Pass or Crystal. Apparently, those "Delay of 5 Vehicles Illegal" signs don't mean anything.

Especially, this time of year, Mom and Pop load up the minivan and decide to take the kids and all their rental gear up for some skiing fun. Of course, dear old Pop is uncomfortable driving two lane roads. He gets even more uncomfortable when he sees the sign "Snow Removal Equipment on Road Ahead." So, he cautiously slows down to 35 MPH until he gets to a passing zone where he gooses the old minivan up to 65 MPH so that he can make up a little time and keep other drivers from passing him without speeding. After the passing zone, he slows down again and prides himself on how safely he drives.

End rant...

Sorry to hear about your speeding ticket.

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amen to that.

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Originally Posted by ccwaskier

Got a ticket for 70 in a 55 while passing today. Was out in the passing zone when a car came over a hill, so I speeded up to get back into my lane within a safe amount of time and the on coming car was a state patrol. I am not too worried about it, but am wondering if there is any legal means to fight a ticket like this. I am assume the speed limit is the speed limit and thats why i got the ticket, but thought i would ask if anyone knows of special circumstances because it was safer to speed up passing. I am in washington state if that matters.

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You could argue necessity, which is a doctrine by which you can sometimes avoid liability for a violation of statute; the rationale being that you can break certain laws to avoid a serious injury to person or property. Of course, in this case, the necessity to avoid injury is the result of you passing in an unsafe manner. I think you're fucked.

You're welcome. Please send me your address so I can forward an outrageous bill.