Heli-based avi rescue system debut dec. 7th @ snowbird

came across this on Ski Utah...
(edit: WOW, the auto bc.com link is off the hook and makes reading that a little annoying, my aplogies, you might want to just click the link and read it there)

http://skiutah.com/media/press_room/release/888

New Heli-Based Avalanche Rescue System Debuts Dec. 7
Dec 01, 2006




Wasatch Backcountry Rescue to Demo New Transceiver Technology

Snowbird, Utah – A new helicopter-mounted avalanche transceiver technology will be unveiled for the first time in the United States Thursday, Dec. 7, in Utah’s Little Cottonwood Canyon. Members of Wasatch Backcountry Rescue, Air Med, Life Flight and the Salt Lake County Sheriff’s Office will perform a helicopter transceiver search using long-range receivers near Snowbird.


The event features Wasatch Backcountry Rescue demonstrating avalanche rescue incorporating the efficiency of a helicopter with the state-of-the-art receivers. Long-range receivers provide a wider search range that permits searching vast areas more quickly than a touring party without putting rescuers into danger.


“Avalanche rescue has traditionally been up to those in the touring party,” said Dean Cardinale, Snowbird Assistant Director of Snow Safety and Wasatch Backcountry Rescue President. “This technology will dramatically change rescue time, effort and success with the help and speed of a helicopter-mounted transceiver.”


The demonstration begins at 10 a.m. at the Wasatch Powderbird Guides heli-port with a meeting and ground presentation, followed by an 11 a.m. helicopter air search. Rescue Training Center targets will be buried across the street on Mt. Superior and helicopters will locate them using the long-range receiver.


Members of the media are invited to attend the demonstration and air search. Representatives of Wasatch Backcountry Rescue, Air Med, Life Flight and the rescue equipment manufacturer will be on hand for the demonstration and interviews. Take Little Cottonwood Canyon to Snowbird Entry 4 and follow the Bypass Road to Wasatch Powderbird Guides.


Celebrating 30 years of service, Wasatch Backcountry Rescue is a volunteer organization made up of snow safety professionals and their avalanche rescue dogs from nine Utah resorts, UDOT, the Utah Olympic Park and Wasatch Powderbird Guides working with Salt Lake, Utah and Summit county sheriff’s offices. Wasatch Backcountry Rescue member resorts are Snowbird, Alta, Brighton, Solitude, Park City, The Canyons, Deer Valley, Snowbasin and Sundance. For more information on Wasatch Backcountry Rescue visit www.wasatchbackcountryrescue.org.


For media information, contact Dean Cardinale at (801) 230-9089/dcardinale@snowbird.com or Laura Schaffer at (801) 933-2047/lschaffer@snowbird.com.

and now for the questions and comments portion of this thread.... perhaps rhetorical, or possibly no answers until the demonstration on thursday....but the gears in my brain are a-turning....

how fast can a heli get to an avy? how many people have a way to contact a heli in the backcountry? is the heli suppose to just locate the beacon and tell you where to dig? or do they plan to land for each beacon and drop someone from the rescue team to dig?

I will no longer need to tour the backcountry.com with a partner!

Instead, when I get buried, my four-antenna beacon with heart rate monitor, body motion sensor, and thermometer will notice that I am no longer moving and transmit my GPS coordinates by radio to Snowbird and request a quick extraction from the backcountry.com.

Actually, I only need two antennas - one to transmit the 457 khz beep, one to send a message to Snowbird. I don't need to be able to find another beacon, the helicopters can take care of it.

My Avalung with CO2/O2 monitor will keep me alive long enough for the helicopters to reach me. If it notices I'm dead, it will relay this information so the flight crew can schedule a more convenient body recovery time.

Since I will be traveling solo, I won't need the encumbrance of a shovel or probe (which I might have purchased from backcountry.com.) :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David Witherspoon

I will no longer need to tour the backcountry.com with a partner!

Instead, when I get buried, my four-antenna beacon with heart rate monitor, body motion sensor, and thermometer will notice that I am no longer moving and transmit my GPS coordinates by radio to Snowbird and request a quick extraction from the backcountry.com.

Actually, I only need two antennas - one to transmit the 457 khz beep, one to send a message to Snowbird. I don't need to be able to find another beacon, the helicopters can take care of it.

My Avalung with CO2/O2 monitor will keep me alive long enough for the helicopters to reach me. If it notices I'm dead, it will relay this information so the flight crew can schedule a more convenient body recovery time.

Since I will be traveling solo, I won't need the encumbrance of a shovel or probe (which I might have purchased from backcountry.com.) :D

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David,

Having been on a VERY successful avalanche rescue with Flight For Life here in Colorado, I think its great that WBR how has these capiblities.

Yes, you make a good if sarcastic point that "response time," is a problem. But, that's what I too once thought here in Colorado. In the small scale Wasatch you might find that there is a faster response time then here in vast Colorado (Clear Creek and Summit Counties, are far bigger then the SLC Wasatch). I would think and hope that the local SLC Wasatch skiing/boarding commuity would be happy/greatful to have this new capiblity available. But, then again you guys "hate" helicopters soo bad, I'm not surprised by your scarcastic comments. I guess, its a Utah thing.... :rolleyes:

Just because there might be a faster rescue team response (yes, helicopters can be grounded by weather) to avalanche accidents in the Wasatch; doesn't give folks a license to forgo their taking responsiblity for their own safety in the backcountry. In Europe there have been a number of successful avalanche rescues, via helicopter rescue teams. But, having skilled and practiced partners with you in the back country (like those guys with the recent accident in Utah) will be the best thing.

Halsted

i haven't read the whole thread but in response to a few topics i saw mentioned by previous posters:

response time will be rather quick since both life flight and air med are in line to purchase one each. the quickest response will come from the 2 that will reside onboard with each of the powderbird ships.

rather than locate a victim, the device will more often be used to clear a debris pile w/o putting rescuers in harms way. if a signal is detected the pilot will follow it much like you would with your beacon. the signal is auditory only and comes from a single capsule with two large antennas hung about a meter below the heli. after the strongest signal is observed, the pilot will then mark the site with a bean bag to allow ground units to pin point.

this is a device that is good for backcountry travelers but better for rescuers. the flaws of this are obvious:
what if they aren't wearing beacons?
what if the beacon breaks during the slide?
can it get there in time to save a life?
etc.


all things equal it is still a good tool for rescue and recovery. knock it all you want but it helps you keep rescuers from being a second or third victim.

I'm guessing it's basically the Recco? In Yurp, they have heli-based Recco receivers (can pick up the signal while in flight, apparently) that allow for fairly rapid rescue scenarios.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tri-Ungulate

I'm guessing it's basically the Recco? In Yurp, they have heli-based Recco receivers (can pick up the signal while in flight, apparently) that allow for fairly rapid rescue scenarios.

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similar principal but this is actually the same barryvox tranceiver that a lot of people carry. the difference is that this one only receives and has antennas that are two feet longer.

this device would seem to be more reliable than the recco sweeper but i don't really know much about them. summit seemed to have some info on those a while back.

If it is helicopter mounted RECCO, I don't know enough about that application of RECCO to comment much. It certainly wouldn't be a bad thing.

I know Ortovox has had a helicopter mountable 457 beacon receiver for some time. As APD stated, I think it is essentially the same as your average beacon, but has a much bigger antenna and probably more power available to amplify signal to give a much greater range. I don't have detailed knowledge on the system, but I believe it is much more intended as a way to sweep large areas and tell rescuers whether or not there are buried transceivers, perhaps giving the general area, than to pinpoint the exact location.

This is a great thing whether the victims are wearing beacons or not. In the mind of the organized rescuer, of course they'd rather a victim have a beacon on. However, knowing that there are no buried beacons is important information just is knowing that there are buried beacons. Combine that with confirmation of burials or lack thereof by other means and you have a much better handle on what type of situation you are dealing with.

Here are some of the benefits as I see it:

In unknown accidents, it allows very quick information on how many beacons are buried without risking rescuers. This allows command to quickly estimate the rescources required, speeding up the response. For example, there may be a reporting party saying that he watched two people get buried... a fast pass by the helicopter may find no beacons letting the incident commander know that he might need more dog teams and more personell for probe line operations. The sooner they know, the sooner resources can be brought to bear.

In very large depositions, it allows a quick survey without having rescuers traveling slowly on foot. The helicopter can find out the general area where to drop off a team. This could reduce burial times.

Helicopter avalanche rescues are completely dependant on weather conditions. Great idea when they can fly, useless technology when they can't. It's quite common for choppers to be "grounded..."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynx

how fast can a heli get to an avy? how many people have a way to contact a heli in the backcountry? is the heli suppose to just locate the beacon and tell you where to dig? or do they plan to land for each beacon and drop someone from the rescue team to dig?

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Top speed in an A-Star is 160 knots. Bell mediums (205, 212) clock in at around 120. In a straight line. The Wasatch seems like it probably has quite a bit of cell service (not sure, just basing that on pics I've seen posted here).

Regardless, the heli is going to get there waaay faster than the SAR teams.

Maybe not fast enough to actually save anyone though. :frown:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynx

came across this on Ski Utah...
(edit: WOW, the auto bc.com link is off the hook and makes reading that a little annoying, my aplogies, you might want to just click the link and read it there)

http://skiutah.com/media/press_room/release/888

New Heli-Based Avalanche Rescue System Debuts Dec. 7
Dec 01, 2006




Wasatch Backcountry Rescue to Demo New Transceiver Technology

Snowbird, Utah – A new helicopter-mounted avalanche transceiver technology will be unveiled for the first time in the United States Thursday, Dec. 7, in Utah’s Little Cottonwood Canyon. Members of Wasatch Backcountry Rescue, Air Med, Life Flight and the Salt Lake County Sheriff’s Office will perform a helicopter transceiver search using long-range receivers near Snowbird.


The event features Wasatch Backcountry Rescue demonstrating avalanche rescue incorporating the efficiency of a helicopter with the state-of-the-art receivers. Long-range receivers provide a wider search range that permits searching vast areas more quickly than a touring party without putting rescuers into danger.


“Avalanche rescue has traditionally been up to those in the touring party,” said Dean Cardinale, Snowbird Assistant Director of Snow Safety and Wasatch Backcountry Rescue President. “This technology will dramatically change rescue time, effort and success with the help and speed of a helicopter-mounted transceiver.”


The demonstration begins at 10 a.m. at the Wasatch Powderbird Guides heli-port with a meeting and ground presentation, followed by an 11 a.m. helicopter air search. Rescue Training Center targets will be buried across the street on Mt. Superior and helicopters will locate them using the long-range receiver.


Members of the media are invited to attend the demonstration and air search. Representatives of Wasatch Backcountry Rescue, Air Med, Life Flight and the rescue equipment manufacturer will be on hand for the demonstration and interviews. Take Little Cottonwood Canyon to Snowbird Entry 4 and follow the Bypass Road to Wasatch Powderbird Guides.


Celebrating 30 years of service, Wasatch Backcountry Rescue is a volunteer organization made up of snow safety professionals and their avalanche rescue dogs from nine Utah resorts, UDOT, the Utah Olympic Park and Wasatch Powderbird Guides working with Salt Lake, Utah and Summit county sheriff’s offices. Wasatch Backcountry Rescue member resorts are Snowbird, Alta, Brighton, Solitude, Park City, The Canyons, Deer Valley, Snowbasin and Sundance. For more information on Wasatch Backcountry Rescue visit www.wasatchbackcountryrescue.org.


For media information, contact Dean Cardinale at (801) 230-9089/dcardinale@snowbird.com or Laura Schaffer at (801) 933-2047/lschaffer@snowbird.com.

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backcountry

ok, this shits pretty annoying, you write b a c k c o u n t r y and it come out as an add for a website? the SAC thing wasn't too bad, because thats actually what people are talking about when they say SAC, but this is rediculous.

I don't want a bunch of adds in threads about avies, beacons, etc.

Anything that helps in an avi is good, but I would think this is mostly a body recovery system, and/or helps search teams stay safer. I can not imagine that a call can go out, the heli crew scrambled, get into the air, find the slide, pin-point the victim, get a crew on the ground in less than 30 minutes. The victim still has to be dug out et cetera. Bottom line ski with capable companions, and better yet stay out of avis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hutash

Anything that helps in an avi is good, but I would think this is mostly a body recovery system, and/or helps search teams stay safer. I can not imagine that a call can go out, the heli crew scrambled, get into the air, find the slide, pin-point the victim, get a crew on the ground in less than 30 minutes. The victim still has to be dug out et cetera. Bottom line ski with capable companions, and better yet stay out of avis.

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your bottom line is very true but for those resort side country skiers that don't follow protocol and end up having the full party buried might have a chance in the tri-canyon wasatch. usually there is someone watching that can call in the slide and within 10 minutes there can be a team on scene. that is best case, no heli already in the air, scenario. your first observation is most likely the reality in most cases. if you can't have an airway to them in 4-6 minutes then you are less likely to have a living person w/o permanant brain damage.

Bump.

I know it's only 2:30 in Utah, but I'm still curious how this panned out. Anybody go see the demo?

No. But here's a heaping helping of breathless bullshit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David Witherspoon

No. But here's a heaping helping of breathless bullshit.

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David- You are SAD! All of those people up there today WBR, UDOT, SHERRIFF, AIRMED, LIFEFLIGHT, AND YES WPG trying to get better at what they do- Maybe save someones life by training, investing in and adopting new technology and you have the nerve to write negative shit like that just because you don't like heliskiing? WTF did you do to help today? Or any day for that matter? Where was the money, time and effort invested in by Save our Canyons?

You've done your good deed for the day by making bricks feel proud of their intellectual achievements.

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That narrowed the search to about 10 yards. That's a lot better than what we normally start with.

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http://wowasatch.com/pictures/Avalan...rdiac-bowl.jpg

Yup.

I didn't think that was breathless at all. Facile, but not breathless.

I'm still interested to hear how this would work in practice.

Let's say I'm out on a tour, shit happens and my buddy gets buried.

Am I supposed to delay my own hasty search --> beacon search to call the chopper in? Aren't I supposed to have my phone off

So, now I'm in to my beacon search. I hope that I'll be within 30 foot radius by the time a chopper gets there, even if it takes a very short time. I'd be more than happy to have help with the recovery, but I have a feeling I'm better off searching on my own.

That said, in a multiple burial this could be much more useful to a trained BC traveler, I think.

Some logistical questions:
* how does one actually call in the chopper? Is there a central number?
* Can I communicate _directly_ with the aircrew once the heli is on the way? What about when they're close-- can they monitor the same frequencies as my Motorola GMRS/FRS radios?

Any thoughts?

Call heli? 911

Contact the heli in the air? I'm not sure about them monitoring FRS radio frequencies. I know the ships I've flown in haven't, but I would bet they could add the capability.

This is probably only going to be useful in mulitple burial scenarios or exceptionally large deposition areas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by char

Call heli? 911

Contact the heli in the air? I'm not sure about them monitoring FRS radio frequencies. I know the ships I've flown in haven't, but I would bet they could add the capability.

This is probably only going to be useful in mulitple burial scenarios or exceptionally large deposition areas.

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That's what I was thinking, too. What say the avy pros?

Just another thought I had:

In my profession, new technology is brought out and tested and is often scoffed at by "oldtimers" as being impractical, prone to break down or slower than the traditional ways. The key to thinking about new technology is not to think of it as replacing any of the ways things are done now, but as another "tool in the toolbox".

It's been suggested that you won't need to follow BC protocol, can travel alone, etc etc. Bullshit. This is just another tool that SAR has in their pocket when it come time to recover bodies.

one problem i can think of for the recco receiver in the heli- what happens if the rescuers are wearing recco mirrors too? wouldnt that mess it all up?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mtaylor

one problem i can think of for the recco receiver in the heli- what happens if the rescuers are wearing recco mirrors too? wouldnt that mess it all up?

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Isn't the internet wonderful?

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=707937

Where is the word RECCO mentioned?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David Witherspoon

No. But here's a heaping helping of breathless bullshit.

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I really don't see any breathless bullshit in that article - they even state that partner rescues are faster. I can't see how the heli search would help in most scenarios, but I'm not gonna automatically condemn it because an evil helicopter is involved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jer

I really don't see any breathless bullshit in that article - they even state that partner rescues are faster. I can't see how the heli search would help in most scenarios, but I'm not gonna automatically condemn it because an evil helicopter is involved.

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None at all?

"Helicopters are essential in avalanche rescues."

I'm not gonna condemn it either. I'm not even gonna condemn helicopters.
I don't automatically condemn anyone or anything. That would be too Godlike.

Helicopters are a vital part of organized avalanche rescue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David Witherspoon

I don't automatically condemn anyone or anything. That would be too Godlike.

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:rolleyes2 :rolleyes2 :rolleyes2 :rolleyes2

LMAOROF

All you wankers need to do is call me with your GPS waypoints, and I'll send my drone out hasty like. It flies at 80mph full GPS guided. It can fly in inclement weather, because it doesn't need retina's or an optic nerve.
http://www.rotomotion.com/images/sr200_800w.jpg

Is that the SkyNet insignia on the side? ;)

Seriously... can I have one of those?

I think I'll start to carry my RC helicopter, just to piss off all thos anti-heli folks when I go ski touring....... :p :p :p

Wow, there are a lot of misconceptions about this thing. It is essentially a beacon. it does not use the recco system. The people in the bird turn their beacons off (yes, the lifelight crews were beacons when they go into the mountains in winter). The response time for the bird is quick. The longest it would take a ship to get anywhere in the wasatch is about 15 minutes. The time is cut down dramatically when the ships are stationed outside of their home hospital. WPG is almost always within 5 minutes of anywhere in the central wasatch. The pilots will guide the ship to within 10 meters, which would drarmatically reduce the search time for the touring party. There are no gaurantees that any sort of organized search will get to the site in a livable amount of time for a buried victim. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that when the helicopter starts to hover in one place, it has gotten as close as it can.

This is not a tool to keep people from relaxing their backcountry travel skills. It is a rescue tool. That is all. It may save lives, it may not, but it certainly is a good arrow to have in your quiver.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cololi

Wow, there are a lot of misconceptions about this thing. It is essentially a beacon. it does not use the recco system. The people in the bird turn their beacons off (yes, the lifelight crews were beacons when they go into the mountains in winter). The response time for the bird is quick. The longest it would take a ship to get anywhere in the wasatch is about 15 minutes. The time is cut down dramatically when the ships are stationed outside of their home hospital. WPG is almost always within 5 minutes of anywhere in the central wasatch. The pilots will guide the ship to within 10 meters, which would drarmatically reduce the search time for the touring party. There are no gaurantees that any sort of organized search will get to the site in a livable amount of time for a buried victim. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that when the helicopter starts to hover in one place, it has gotten as close as it can.

This is not a tool to keep people from relaxing their backcountry travel skills. It is a rescue tool. That is all. It may save lives, it may not, but it certainly is a good arrow to have in your quiver.

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Nicely put.