FWD in LCC?

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08-19-2006, 11:17 AM
bagtagley

FWD in LCC?

I'm seriously considering replacing the Sub in the very near future. My desire for good gas mileage is battling with my need for a vehicle w/ AWD. I realize AWD is the ideal setup for regular trips up the canyons, but I'm having trouble finding something non-Sub that isn't a mini-SUV. I'm really leaning towards a TDi Jetta.

So, what's the situation? Are snow tires sufficient, or are chains a necessity? I can only remember a small handful of times that I thought the AWD was really necessary going up, and coming down I think good snows will make more of a difference than drivetrain.
08-19-2006, 11:34 AM
stump832

I don't really know shit about how one drives vs. the other. But when the sheriff is at the mouth of the canyon stopping cars, if you don't have AWD/4WD then chains are required. JONG.

That probably doesn't help at all. Sorry Bags.
08-19-2006, 12:05 PM
bagtagley

Quote:

Originally Posted by stump832

I don't really know shit about how one drives vs. the other. But when the sheriff is at the mouth of the canyon stopping cars, if you don't have AWD/4WD then chains are required. JONG.

That probably doesn't help at all. Sorry Bags.

Yeah, I'd keep chains handy for the right situations, but I've only seen the Sheriff in place a few times...I don't think I saw him once last season.

What mean is, how capable is a FWD car w/ good snows?
08-19-2006, 12:22 PM
hemas

Quote:

Originally Posted by bagtagley

Yeah, I'd keep chains handy for the right situations, but I've only seen the Sheriff in place a few times...I don't think I saw him once last season.

What mean is, how capable is a FWD car w/ good snows?

With good tires (I mean studded winter-tires, not that shit that is rated All-Season in NA... Heck my summertires read plain and simple that for NA market they are All-Seasons... and they suck on snow), FWD will work pretty well. True, you can't drive as fast as with a 4WD/AWD (but then again you'll stop a lot faster, which infact makes it safer) on certain conditions. You prolly would have problems if you have over 2 feet of unplowed heavy snow, but then again I'm not certain the road would be open on such conditions. So while on public roads a FWD will almost always get there just as an AWD/4WD, it migth take a tad longer or a bit more skill.[/end unnecessay AWD/SUV/4WD rant]
08-19-2006, 01:34 PM
Stikki

I'd take FWD with good snows/studs over AWD with all seasons every time. In my opinion a lot of people use AWD as a crutch for poor driving skillz.

Best snow drivers I've known were old Czech guys who swore by the long wheelbase, v8, RWD, studded tires set-up, i.e. 70's station wagons and German luxury cars.
08-19-2006, 01:48 PM
Big Blue

I'd guess that where you'll notice the difference the most is on the few days a year when it dumps all day and the parking lot gets deep but they can't plow due to all the cars. In that case you could end up fuct. Actually in that case even subies will be having problems. But like I said that's a rare occurrence.
08-19-2006, 02:38 PM
Altaholic

VW golf R32 AWD, that is what I would go with, don't go w/ 2WD!!!!!!
08-19-2006, 02:55 PM
zion zig zag

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stikki

Best snow drivers I've known were old Czech guys who swore by the long wheelbase, v8, RWD, studded tires set-up, i.e. 70's station wagons and German luxury cars.

Oh yeah? Well the best snow drivers I've ever seen were little old ladies from Svalbard who had two wheeled carts pulled by oxen.

It's just a convenience thing, Bags. How much are you willing to pay for it? I drove a fwd car for years, including days that I had to be up at SB and powmow before the public, and sometimes even with snows I had to chain up. If you go with studded snows are you willing to put up with them from nov-april every year? They don't perform that well on dry roads, and you have to change them twice a year.

Figure out the yearly gas savings and see if it makes sense.
08-19-2006, 10:02 PM
bagtagley

Nevermind, VW is offering shit as far as incentives on the TDi....t'was a pipe dream anyway.

Probably stick with Sub, though I'm having a lot of trouble convincing myself to take on a car payment (stay tuned for a "should I sell my car" thread).

PS, I walked out of LHM Subaru feeling sick to my stomach. Full-on pressure buy technique from the biggest scumbag car dealer I've ever come across. I'll never step a foot anywhere near that place again.
08-20-2006, 01:52 AM
AltaPowderDaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by bagtagley

PS, I walked out of LHM Subaru feeling sick to my stomach. Full-on pressure buy technique from the biggest scumbag car dealer I've ever come across. I'll never step a foot anywhere near that place again.

i'll never go to that dealership again. larry H miller is a subaru is run poorly and far beyond reputable. my friend bought a wrx from them a month ago and nearly got screwed all over the place. they tried every trick in their standard operations book. the car was bought and paid for with the understanding that it would be in working condition within two days. 8 days later and after going thru their shop, he was told the car would cost another $1,500 for a clutch but they'd give it to him for only $700:rolleyes:. this wasn't even discussed until the sales person picked him up and brought him back to the dealership. they had been running his credit without authorization for the higher amount and had already drawn up new contracts with higher apr's. to shorten the story, he walked out with 4 contracts and agreed to pay the extra $700 but they'd give him more for his trade-in. later at the bank he noticed that they did not give him more for the trade but still charged him extra.

there were more issues that just add up to a headache that i'd just rather not type out. i've also had my own bad experiences there. bad vibes for sure.
08-20-2006, 09:23 AM
Trackhead

I have a Toyota Corolla 2003=38-42mpg. With good snowtires, it does fine. But I did get stopped by the sherriff for no chains in LCC. He made me put them on in front of him, that took a total of 4 minutes. I drove up LCC and BCC 3-4 days a week last year, put chains on twice.

Why bother getting shitting gas mileage for the 4 days out of the year convenience of having AWD? Not to mention the added cost of buying an AWD vehicle for those 4 days out of the year you might actually need AWD.

Save your money on gas and car payments, work less, ski more. Or, buy the fancy AWD car, get shitty gas mileage, higher insurance premiums, higher yearly registration costs, work more, ski less.
08-20-2006, 10:13 AM
uglymoney

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trackhead

I have a Toyota Corolla 2003=38-42mpg. With good snowtires, it does fine. But I did get stopped by the sherriff for no chains in LCC. He made me put them on in front of him, that took a total of 4 minutes. I drove up LCC and BCC 3-4 days a week last year, put chains on twice.

Why bother getting shitting gas mileage for the 4 days out of the year convenience of having AWD? Not to mention the added cost of buying an AWD vehicle for those 4 days out of the year you might actually need AWD.

Save your money on gas and car payments, work less, ski more. Or, buy the fancy AWD car, get shitty gas mileage, higher insurance premiums, higher yearly registration costs, work more, ski less.

My 02 Outback, full coverage 100/300 $1000 deduct runs $480 a year. Not exactly bank breaking insurance rates on these wagons.

I have to agree though, FWD will do the trick 99% of the time, and its cheaper. The other 1% is nice - especially in parking lots where my Outy has never been stuck whereas I found myself buried with my last FWD car several times, and I enjoy the AWD on my car every time it snows. Its simply a blast firing around in a car with 4 driven snow tires - its really a lot like driving a snowmobile, another optional accessory.

Its all about choosing the compromise that fits ones lifestyle the best. Or better yet, have a TDI and a Suby sitting in the driveway.
08-20-2006, 11:33 AM
Trackhead

Quote:

Originally Posted by uglymoney

I have to agree though, FWD will do the trick 99% of the time, and its cheaper. The other 1% is nice

AWD is nice, but clearly not necessary. I have a big ass '84 GMC truck that never get's used in the winter. Just the odd trip to the lumber store.
08-20-2006, 11:41 AM
L7

No reason to think FWD with GOOD tires won't be every bit capable. (not that my experience is based on LCC. ) I see it as convenience and a bit of assurance. The only time I really have an issue with my subie is when the unplowed snow it so deep it comes over the bumper and right over the hood. I'm sure front wheel drive with the right tires would still give you the traction to run into the ditch because you couldn't see. Lower bumper, less ground clearance those could hamper you some. As for greasy snow and ice..... again lots of traction just a little less aggressive on the juice especially in corners, not a big deal.
08-20-2006, 12:30 PM
johannus

subie...

don't know what year subie you have, but you can disable the AWD option by pulling the fuse that is located under the hood in front of the passenger side. at least that is where it is located on my 95 subie wagon. the owner's manual shows it's use to be for towing the car when a flatbed is unavailable. the car will not handle as well around corners, but you will get better gas mileage per gallon.

i value the awd option, but i also spend oct - may/june in the eastern sierras every year.
08-20-2006, 01:02 PM
L7

Quote:

Originally Posted by johannus

don't know what year subie you have, but you can disable the AWD option by pulling the fuse that is located under the hood in front of the passenger side. at least that is where it is located on my 95 subie wagon. the owner's manual shows it's use to be for towing the car when a flatbed is unavailable. the car will not handle as well around corners, but you will get better gas mileage per gallon.

i value the awd option, but i also spend oct - may/june in the eastern sierras every year.

I believe this is only an option on automatics, not manuals.
08-20-2006, 04:50 PM
uglymoney

Quote:

Originally Posted by L7

I believe this is only an option on automatics, not manuals.

Yep, the manuals are a purely mechanical system, 50-50 all the time unless something slips.
08-20-2006, 08:15 PM
TELEB

I know a guy that drove his honda accord up and down the canyon with restrictions, he only got stopped once. He took the bypass road and had no problem. I traded my truck in, when i bought my subaru from LHM subaru. My car was brand new they didn't even have it in there computer system. I got a pretty good deal on trade in and sale price. They tried to sell me the extended warranty, but i ended up getting it for free, it includes free oil changes, and other freebies.
08-20-2006, 08:59 PM
Shaggy

Quote:

Originally Posted by hemas

True, you can't drive as fast as with a 4WD/AWD (but then again you'll stop a lot faster, which infact makes it safer) on certain conditions.

I'm still trying to figure out how AWD/4WD vehicles "stop a lot faster" ... A car's brakes act on it's wheels, and not the powertrain.
08-20-2006, 09:04 PM
L7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I'm still trying to figure out how AWD/4WD vehicles "stop a lot faster" ... A car's brakes act on it's wheels, and not the powertrain.

Ummmmm I think that would be connected to the reference of not driving as fast=stop quicker. Just my guess though, maybe he thinks the powertrain helps.
08-20-2006, 09:14 PM
Shepherd Wong

I had an old Subaru that looked AWD but was just front wheel drive, allowed me to get around the check points. Had pretty crappy tires and I never had any trouble getting up LCC. You just have to be a little careful with applying the power smoothly and you shouldn't have a problem. Getting it out of the parking lot after the plow went by could be difficult at times.:eek:
08-20-2006, 09:24 PM
Shaggy

Quote:

Originally Posted by L7

Ummmmm I think that would be connected to the reference of not driving as fast=stop quicker. Just my guess though, maybe he thinks the powertrain helps.

I just re-read his post -- I guess I missed that on the first read-through. ;)
08-21-2006, 12:11 AM
hemas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I just re-read his post -- I guess I missed that on the first read-through. ;)

Guess there is some miss communication (on my part, it seems :redface:). AWD/4WD carsa don't stop quicker, in fact they take longer to stop. Has nothing to do with speed (though, greater speeds will naturally enhance the effect), but purely physics... 4WD/AWD cars are heavier than their 2WD counterparts (same model offered with AWD or 2WD) and laws of physics state that it is harder to stop.
08-21-2006, 12:19 AM
ill-advised strategy

I think the problem is this: it doesn't always come down to skill when it's busy. It's so common to get stopped in traffic in some compromising spots, like in a steep area on a banked turn or on some ice spot, and you've got people above you and below you, and there's the expectation that everyone's either 4wd or chains so they're not going to give you a lot of room to work it and get some momentum.

I think the other issue is parking. If you get into a parking lot that's in that deep-chop mode...that ain't fun.

I wouldn't want to be fucking around with a FWD car if my plan was to be commuting LCC. My $.02.
08-21-2006, 08:39 AM
Shredhead

Quote:

Originally Posted by stump832

But when the sheriff is at the mouth of the canyon stopping cars, if you don't have AWD/4WD then chains are required. JONG.

I always stayed up the canyon last year, but I was skiing with a guy that said he drove up every day in a FWD car. He claimed they weren't doing the check point anymore? Can anyone confirm?
08-21-2006, 10:24 AM
AltaPowderDaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shredhead

I always stayed up the canyon last year, but I was skiing with a guy that said he drove up every day in a FWD car. He claimed they weren't doing the check point anymore? Can anyone confirm?

they still checked on the bad days. like yetiman said, you can't always predict what other drivers will do. if that puts you in a bad spot to where your 2wd car won't make it, then you've just fucked everone behind you until the sheriff comes and hauls your ass down. if you have studded tires (not all-terrains) on your 2wd, then that shouldn't be a problem. imo, a 4wd with moderatly bad tires and a shitty driver is worse than a 2wd with all-terrains and a good driver.
08-21-2006, 12:14 PM
TELEB

there were days this winter when they weren't checking, and it really sucks when you have to be behind a 2wd car that's going 10mph.
08-21-2006, 02:16 PM
zion zig zag

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trackhead

Why bother getting shitting gas mileage for the 4 days out of the year convenience of having AWD? Not to mention the added cost of buying an AWD vehicle for those 4 days out of the year you might actually need AWD.

This surprises me, they must take better care of the roads down there then they do up north. The SB road is low angle but there are two hills that the 2wd cars are always struggling on unless they JUST plowed. Even getting out of the employee parking lot at the end of a snowy day was too much for a lot of 2wd cars and I had to give them rides home.

The other thing is summertime use. I just got back from a trip on some STEEP dirt roads where I was getting a little wheelspin on the deep dust and I was glad that the others were pulling.
08-21-2006, 02:33 PM
Trackhead

Well, APD will be working five days a week at the Bird. So I could see him wanting AWD, but for the rest of us.....................chains fucking rally on FWD.

Then we you drive down to Timp to go skiing, you don't have to complain about the 14mpg your getting in your SUV, cause you're getting 40mph and will only take a gallon of gas to get there and back.
08-21-2006, 03:09 PM
AltaPowderDaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trackhead

Then we you drive down to Timp to go skiing, you don't have to complain about the 14mpg your getting in your SUV, cause you're getting 40mph and will only take a gallon of gas to get there and back.

14mpg is highway. and i never complain about riding in your car and getting 40mpg.;)

th, hike later?

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