Has the cheap season pass degraded the mountain experience?

This quote from the Alpine or Squaw season pass thread got me thinking:

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Originally Posted by onehotchili

My point is that the very reason why we keep our pass
prices high is to make sure that the people who ride Squaw don't have to
deal with traffic, parking issues, long lift lines, and all the other
inconveniences that come with a super cheap pass. We like the fact that
you can come to Squaw on the busiest day of the season and park no more
than a 2 min walk from the lifts and never wait in long lift lines, or
wait in lines to hit features in our park. We could have pass prices
that weren't, in your eyes, such a joke but then there would be a whole
lot of other nuisances that most people probably wouldn't be laughing
about. That said, I do value your opinion. I'm not going to try to
convince you to buy a Squaw pass, but I can tell you that that pass
price is probably not going to get any cheaper any time soon and that's
no joke."

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I will agree with this statement refering to cheap passes greatly diminishing the mountain experience. Ever since Mt Rose lowered its pass price and especialy since they added a high speed lift to the Slide side the mountain has been very popular with "look at me" crowd, California tranplants no doubt ;). I would love to see them add $200 to their pass price or even charge an annual fee to park on the Slide side. On some weekends both parking lots will fill up and there is a slow, 20-30 mph, line of cars heading up from Reno. Sunny powder days are no longer any fun, thank god for storm days. Prior to the high speed on the Slide side there was never any traffic and certainly no parking issues.In either 2007/2008 or 2008/2009 a new lodge is going to open on the Slide side. The crowds will no doubt increase even more. I'm sure the resort owners will be quite happy but those old crumrudgrons like me do not like the change :mad: .

Maybe then I'll buy a Squaw Valley pass to avoid the crowds

Way to make this sport more elitist and cloistered than it already is.

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Originally Posted by Dug

Way to make this sport more elitist and cloistered than it already is.

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No shit. And Squaw Valley is crowded.

How would you like to pay $660 for a season pass to ski 600' of vert?

( www.skiliberty.com )

:mad:

http://www.theyellowstoneclub.com/ is exclusively for rich old crumrudgrons such as yourself. Join up and you'll never have to ski with us common folk again.

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Originally Posted by Dug

Way to make this sport more elitist and cloistered than it already is.

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I spent less on skiing in 2006 than I spent in 1990 and I ski more now.

Good Gawd, don't tell me you had to wait more than 10 minutes for the valet to park your car too. What is this sport coming to.

I don't buy their argument that more expensive pass = less crowds. That's BS. Every morning driving 89 to Alpine I pass the Squaw turn off, and their are usually cars lined up all the way back to the Alpine turn off, waiting to head up the road and park @ Squaw. And on busy winter weekends, the majority of bay area peeps head to Squaw, with about equal amounts hitting N'Star and Alpine (more families at N'Star). Is it really true that you can always park witin 2 minutes of walking to the village/gondola @ Squaw, even on the busiest days? Just curious....

Rose on a sunny pow day gets as crowded as I've ever seen any resort.

I talked to a mountain ops guy on the lift. He said they sold 10,000 value passes last year and expect to sell 15,000 this year :eek:

I'm guessing that's why they jacked up the price by $50...the parking lot fills up so often that there's no point in selling more passes.

I think it's Floyd Landis's fault. Or the french. Or the rich. Or the poor. Where's my twin tipped helmet when I need to feel Rad, even if she doesn't want to be felt?

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Originally Posted by Spats

Rose on a sunny pow day gets as crowded as I've ever seen any resort.

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Unfortunately true.

But mid-week powder days there (like any other place I guess) are still worth the pass $.

I paid 330 for a pass last season and i had fun every day i skied. suck on that, richie rich.

Isn't that Bodhi's avatar?

Squaw is doing what they do for more reasons than reducing inconveniences to passholders. Revenue is price versus quantity. I'm sure Squaw has figured out that they can keep their revenues high enough from passes given a high price and lower volume. The resort has limited capacity. Less passholders on the lifts means more capacity for ticket buyers and all of the dollars that they bring.

I obviously do not have the revenue breakdowns for Squaw, but I don't find it's a stretch to say that ticket buyers are the real moneymakers for the resorts.

So I pose, why do ski resorts even offer a season pass? I would say it reduces the monetary risk by having cash paid before the season in the event of a poor snow year. Plus, one could also view it as a free source of financing.

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Originally Posted by robokill1981

http://www.theyellowstoneclub.com/ is exclusively for rich old crumrudgrons such as yourself. Join up and you'll never have to ski with us common folk again.

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Originally Posted by Squatch

I paid 330 for a pass last season and i had fun every day i skied. suck on that, richie rich.

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This has nothing to do with being rich or an elitist. It's about how much a resort has changed after lowering the season pass price. In the past 3 years the crowds have probably tripled on weekends and close to doubled midweek, sorry El Chup, mid week powder days are just as bad as weekend pow days. I've been skiing Mt Rose for 20 plus years, the past 2 seasons have seen a dramatic rise in skier visits. When a place changes as drastically as Mt Rose has in the past 2-3 years it is hard for a long time skier to adjust.

People who ski to ski won't mind paying a couple of hundred extra bucks per season. Those who show up to be seen might not.

Now it's time to drink Johnnie Walker Blue Label on my yacht at the Lake :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Dug

Way to make this sport more elitist and cloistered than it already is.

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No shit. Unless you're loaded you should never be able to ski more than 2 days a year. If you did that might inconvenience someone else. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by tarkman1

So I pose, why do ski resorts even offer a season pass? I would say it reduces the monetary risk by having cash paid before the season in the event of a poor snow year. Plus, one could also view it as a free source of financing.

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Supposedly, a decent number of passbuyers never show up once during the season.

It's all about the profit maximization.

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Originally Posted by gageyk

This has nothing to do with being rich or an elitist. It's about how much a resort has changed after lowering the season pass price. In the past 3 years the crowds have probably tripled on weekends and close to doubled midweek, sorry El Chup, mid week powder days are just as bad as weekend pow days. I've been skiing Mt Rose for 20 plus years, the past 2 seasons have seen a dramatic rise in skier visits. When a place changes as drastically as Mt Rose has in the past 2-3 years it is hard for a long time skier to adjust.

People who ski to ski won't mind paying a couple of hundred extra bucks per season. Those who show up to be seen might not.

Now it's time to drink Johnnie Walker Blue Label on my yacht at the Lake :tongue:

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Hey do you think the low Pass price has caused the increase at Mt. Rose? I think it has to do with opening the Chutes. And to some degree the high speed 6 on the east side.

I still notice that even if there is a line for the 8:30 start on a powder day, by the time I get to the bottom for my second run there is no line.

We both know what a powder day is like at Mt. Rose and for that reason I suspect it will just get woorse and woorse.

I think they could charge for for the pass but I don't think its gonna change the number of riders in the Eastbowl parking lot early on a powder day.

BTW gageyk, I always had you pegged as part of the SEE ME crowd.:tongue:

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Originally Posted by gageyk

People who ski to ski won't mind paying a couple of hundred extra bucks per season.

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You're a moron.

Well, when ASC came out with the A41 pass two seasons ago, K-mart had earned a reputation for being overly crowded, but regulars knew where to go to avoid the crowds. People complained that with A41, the crowds would be crazy.

What is it like today, after two years of A41?

K-mart still deserves a reputation for being overly crowded, but regulars know where to go to avoid the crowds.

(and I, for one, appreciate that I pay just $400 for a season pass)

Cheap Passes aren’t “ruining” powder days. It’s fat skis.

P.S. If you want to spend some extra $$$, buy some AT clamps and wide skins. That will set you back $500 or so.

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Originally Posted by Greydon Clark

Cheap Passes aren’t “ruining” powder days. It’s fat skis.

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Ouch...Truth hurts. Everybody's a good skier now.

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Originally Posted by skiing-in-jackson

Ouch...Truth hurts. Everybody's a good skier now.

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Don't worry. I'm still terrible. But just you wait until the AK/big mountain snowlerblades come out, I'm gonna kick everyone's ass.

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Originally Posted by Squatch

Don't worry. I'm still terrible.

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1000+ posts and you're still terrible? I thought lots of posts here made one a true shredder. Misanthropic post make you land bigger air...:rolleyes: :D

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But just you wait until the AK/big mountain snowlerblades come out, I'm gonna kick everyone's ass.

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I'm sure this is already on the horizon.

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Originally Posted by skiing-in-jackson

Everybody's a good skier now.

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No. But these days everybody "skis the blacks".

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Originally Posted by Greydon Clark

No. But these days everybody "skis the blacks".

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Well, in the east, I don't think that had much to do with fat skis. Unfortunately. Maybe a little bit when it comes to glades.

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Originally Posted by Dromond

Well, in the east, I don't think that had much to do with fat skis. Unfortunately. Maybe a little bit when it comes to glades.

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Indirectly. Moreso with the advent of midfats, the average advanced skier started looking towards off-piste terrain, whereas before it was more about bumps or going fast. With off-piste becoming popular with the advanced skiers, it wasn't long before the masses were hopping in the glades with "everybody's doing it" as their reason.

I think the internet might be a big reason too. The amount of info (true or not) that I get from the internet is staggering. Nothing is secret anymore.

Another possible reason (for the east) is the weather. Drastic is not a word the northeast is unfamiliar with, but it seems like it's getting worse and worse. Feast or famine. With 20 shitty days and 2 good days, the crowds come out in droves.

Lastly, I think the pass has to have skier-visits up some. Sure, I know some people that bought passes and didn't even get their money's worth (myself included last year), but I know a lot of people, that went 20 or 30 times; people I just can't see going that many times if they were buying that many full-price or even discounted lift tickets.

shmerham, i agree with you. i have however just one comment: skiing in powder has always been the big thing, the best way to prove you're a skier. the highest grade was reserved for those who could link tight turns in powder, with skinny skis (because there were no shaped skis in the 80's and early 90's).

at least that was my experience as a teenager, that's what we strived for...

Hmmm....I really think this question has different answers depending on how close to major population centers a given resort is. If there is no large population base, low price season passes don't make much of a difference, however where there are hoards of skiers to accomodate, making the pass a really good deal might tip the scales and allow many to purchase a pass who otherwise would ski much less and pick their days with tickets.

Another factor is how far the resorts are from the population they serve, especially with gas prices skyrocketing. If I had to drive a 150 miles per ski day, I would ski a lot less than I do with a 25 mile round trip, not withstanding the price I paid for the pass, because time is an element too.

Ski resorts charge money to make money. Like they give a fuck if it's crowded or not. More people mean more people in the resorts hotels, ski shops and restaurants. They make way more money when more people are there. Don't be fooled.

Kirkwood has had cheap passes and no crowds for years. It's changed. CHP are out at the entrance often and last year was record attendance They also have a fast growing asian population, at least it seems to me.

:cussing:

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Originally Posted by gageyk

I spent less on skiing in 2006 than I spent in 1990 and I ski more now

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Ditto. I paid ~$550-600 for a pass at Alpental in 1990. I'll pay $279 for that same pass this year. Alot more people buy the cheap pass now and its not just a reflection of a general population increase due to all you damn Californians infiltrating the PNW. ;)

For me the cheap season pass has messed with my "resort" pow skiing experience, because now when I skip out for a pow day during the week it can be just as crowded as the weekend. On weekends arriving after 9:30am can mean no parking at all. WTF?


Ok, so I'm a confessed elitist-poachaholic, and while the extra people don't tend to get my powder on most days, they clog the damn lifts so that when it should take ~30 minutes to lap the goods it usually takes over an hour.:mad:


And they ALL have fat skis and I know they are secretely sniggering at me because I don't have fat skis ever since they helped my then 50-something overweight father ski effortless pow instead of sacking up and losing the wieght like I've been after him to do since his first pair of Chubbs back in 1996 so I've always thought fat skis = fat people and I'm really just an elitist snob who has issues with "fat things".:nonono2:


Carry on then.

Well it seems that if I save $1000 on a yearly pass that the benefits of having the extra money to spend on equipment and travel to other resorts benefits me more than an uncrowded parking lot. The goods have always gotten tracked out if you don't get there early or have a secret stash.

Every resort is trying to increase skier visits. Don't tell me that an expensive season pass is anything but a different strategy to run a mountain. If enough mountains find that it helps their bottom line, they will all do it.

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Originally Posted by f2f

shmerham, i agree with you. i have however just one comment: skiing in powder has always been the big thing, the best way to prove you're a skier. the highest grade was reserved for those who could link tight turns in powder, with skinny skis (because there were no shaped skis in the 80's and early 90's).

at least that was my experience as a teenager, that's what we strived for...

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yeah...but skiing pow now is a joke. i'm not saying it's not fun...but it's not challenging. skiing in fresh is easy (wasn't so back in the day), and fat skis reduce the barrier to entry.

now...give me chalky, grippy snow on a 50* face... :)

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Originally Posted by freshies

I don't buy their argument that more expensive pass = less crowds. That's BS. Every morning driving 89 to Alpine I pass the Squaw turn off, and their are usually cars lined up all the way back to the Alpine turn off, waiting to head up the road and park @ Squaw.

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that's sorta not far b/c you're coming from the north and cars heading north have to make the left for the squaw access road.

folks heading north on 89 could just as easily say "whoa...access to alpine is backed up all the way to the 7-11.

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Originally Posted by freshies

And on busy winter weekends, the majority of bay area peeps head to Squaw, with about equal amounts hitting N'Star and Alpine (more families at N'Star). Is it really true that you can always park witin 2 minutes of walking to the village/gondola @ Squaw, even on the busiest days? Just curious....

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no, that's not a true statement... although there ARE essentially two areas to park that give you access to kt/red dog/the funi.

what may be a true statement is that you are more likely to be able to park 2 minutes from A lift @ squaw, even on a busy day. that lift may very well be far east (which was always my favorite for getting player parking), but it might not be 2 minutes from KT-22.

either way, both get crowded (like any resort) if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Originally Posted by upallnight

folks heading north on 89 could just as easily say "whoa...access to alpine is backed up all the way to the 7-11.

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except there isn't a backup to the 7-11.

the people I see "skiing the blacks" (and double blacks) look like a good match to the age profile of maggots - peak 25-35, bell curve trailing off each way.

tarkman's analysis sounds on the money

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yeah...but skiing pow now is a joke. i'm not saying it's not fun...but it's not challenging. skiing in fresh is easy (wasn't so back in the day), and fat skis reduce the barrier to entry.

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upallnight, even if people can "hack it" in powder, meaning that it's possible for them to go down a slope in a foot of fresh without falling (much), they still can't do it with style. how many amateur videos have you seen, even on this board, where you think 'wtf is this guy doing?'

they're having fun though, so more pow(d)er to them. truth is: there's only a limited number of people that will not be afraid to steal our line at any one time, just as there's only a limited number of people that will go in the backcountry for turns. for all i know, those are not my enemies, they are my friends. i don't care if they cheat...

... i think :)

ps: one of the few lines we captured last year (southwest had it bad for snow) has me skiing on a 176cm twin-tip skis with 78cm waist. and i'm not a very light guy, not at all:

http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtc...s/mvi-3203.avi

i'm proud of it not because it's an achievement of any sort for this board, but because i can "hack it" slightly better than i did 10 years ago. always learning :)

pps: i did buy fat skis last year

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Originally Posted by cj001f

except there isn't a backup to the 7-11.

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well, if you're heading to AM from the north, you're gonna be backed up in squaw traffic, no?

i've definitely had plenty of slow rides on the AM access road...and anyone who has shown up just *after* they close the road for avy control knows how long that can take.

any crawl on squaw's access road (in my opinion) is negated by the extra mileage to AM + the ride down AM's access road. park @ far east @ squaw + you can be riding faster. (again, in my opinion/experience when i was living there....though i wasn't there as long as many other folks.)

Over the last 2 years, I noticed fearless day ticket gapers were wandering and douching *everywhere*, good and bad, including into stashes (including those outside the ski area boundry) and following locals tracks to get their stashes. I think that had to do primarily with:
1. Industry/Media wholesale promotion of "backcountry" and "extreme" to gapers rather than a niche market
2. From the above, rental and gaper level retail pushing of fat skis
3. The good snow made it less risky to explore

It compounded as less aware locals then caught on ("If the Nebraskans are going there, what am I missing out on?"). Before I knew it, stashes that had been staying good for a few days after a storm were only safe for a few hours.

My home area Bogus was one of the first resorts to do a cheap pass. It was in 98/99 or so. The year before they sold a season pass for $450 (not too bad) and sold something like 7,000 passes for the year. Then, in '98, they sold them for $200 and sold 29,000. They've sold between 20 and 30,000 every year since. You can't tell me it's about hooking the locals up. They made $2.5 mil more that first year. That mountain is a f***in circus now. The only redeeming factor and reason I get a pass is they spin the chairs until 10 every night. Weekends are now for bc.

One cool thing they are doing is offering a deal for $250 for new skiers. For that, you get 4 lessons and the season worth of rentals and the season pass. The catch is you have to complete the 4 lessons before you are able to use your pass and you can't get rental equipment for free skiing until the 4 lessons are done. These classes are geared towards teaching skier ettiquette and skiing within your ability. It's been a successful program so far.

Screw the cheap passes but I do like the lesson, rental, pass program.