Trailbuilder/resort mngmnt. Q!!! (help!)

Well, I am trying to calculate a somewhat accurate budget for a VERY comprehensive trail project, and I am a little stumped. We are talking about varying terrain, 4-6 (four to six man) full time summer crew. Mechanized vehicle rentals, (sweco's, walking excavators, motorized wheelbarrels, explosives, the works). We have a limited window of build time, the trail conditions vary from easy, cuttable soils (1/5- 1/4) of a mile per day in some places) all the way to blasting into shale to make switchbacks, retaining walls, and bench cuts. I don't know how to begin to calculate!
Any advice?
Costs:
Crew
Machines
hand tools
materiels, flagging, etc
explosives
any others?

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Originally Posted by ja_surf

http://www.ctgilles.net/images/picta...on_dollars.jpg

My guess would be one million dollars

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A little bit more than that, actually.
Funny, though!

Mcleods and pulaskis for tools. Mcleods especially........best trenching/singletrack toy made.

You probably knew that already though.

If this is the same project I know of, Jed was planning on being out there for a few weeks to help.

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Originally Posted by kidwoo

Mcleods and pulaskis for tools. Mcleods especially........best trenching/singletrack toy made.

You probably knew that already though.

If this is the same project I know of, Jed was planning on being out there for a few weeks to help.

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No, totally different project. This is building a 27 mile trail system for Grand Targhee, with climbing grades, 'all mountain' DH, intermediate DH, Freeride DH, and gobs and gobs of CC. A lot of the upper mountain is one big pile of rock and shale, so machinery and explosives come into play. It is actually going to be a very technical project, especially if we are trying to minimize any footprint of it for winter operations. What I really am looking for are some resort contacts...but I will see everybody in the biz. next week in Whistler for the IMBA summit.
Jed (Harlan's) project is way cool, too! just private and 'teensie weensie' in comparison. They do amazing work, though, as we know.

Gravity Logic people are the best to ask. Speak to Tom Pro, Dave Kelly, Rob McSkimming or Jeremy Roche when you're in Whistler next week. The IMBA TCC might know but they don't do lift-access things much.

I'll be there for the last day but wont be guiding rides as I blew up my knee.

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

Gravity Logic people are the best to ask. Speak to Tom Pro, Dave Kelly, Rob McSkimming or Jeremy Roche when you're in Whistler next week. The IMBA TCC might know but they don't do lift-access things much.

I'll be there for the last day but wont be guiding rides as I blew up my knee.

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Will do. Sorry to hear about your knee. It wont affect your liver abuse capabilities, will it?

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Originally Posted by rideit

Will do. Sorry to hear about your knee. It wont affect your liver abuse capabilities, will it?

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Problem is - I don't drink!

Too bad you don't fit a Large Norco Fluid or I'd just lend you mine

Um, you should have someone with experience do the blasting, and if you're doing blasting, you'll need a coring rig.

As a civil engineer, I'll say be careful with the retaining wall design and construction, it can be very tricky depending on materials. I don't know the parameters of where this is going in, so I'll stop there.

I do a lot of preliminary estimating for roadway projects in excess of 50 mil, and have a lot of experience running smaller 5-10 mil projects in construction. A few things to look into as well is overhead, ie. planning, mapping, possibly picking up a gps to get a rough sketch of the system. You'll also be able to get some rough grades this way too. Time walking the sites seeing if it makes sense helps me when I'm planning.

No clue on budgeting, but I'm more than happy to help with the blowing shit up part of this. You won't even have to pay me. Just tell me when and where.

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Originally Posted by grskier

Um, you should have someone with experience do the blasting, and if you're doing blasting, you'll need a coring rig.

As a civil engineer, I'll say be careful with the retaining wall design and construction, it can be very tricky depending on materials. I don't know the parameters of where this is going in, so I'll stop there.

I do a lot of preliminary estimating for roadway projects in excess of 50 mil, and have a lot of experience running smaller 5-10 mil projects in construction. A few things to look into as well is overhead, ie. planning, mapping, possibly picking up a gps to get a rough sketch of the system. You'll also be able to get some rough grades this way too. Time walking the sites seeing if it makes sense helps me when I'm planning.

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I'm already way up to speed on layout, GPS, autocad overlay mapping, grade projections, avoidance of any sort of retaining element if possible. I really am just looking for ballpark operational costs. Sweco rental or purchase fees, walking excavators, licensed operators, licensed explosives operators, etc.
Nuts n' bolts.

I have the technical and layout elements down cold for hand crews. Just the mechanized stuff. Thanks.

I'm a civil engineer and will gladly give you a cost estimate.

But I bill out at $95/hour.

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Originally Posted by homerjay

I'm a civil engineer and will gladly give you a cost estimate.

But I bill out at $95/hour.

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Trail building is far from civil. I am afraid you are underqualified.

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Originally Posted by rideit

Trail building is far from civil. I am afraid you are underqualified.

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Seriously, get quotes from equipment rental outfits and/or excavation subcontractors. Same goes for the blasting, that will need to be contracted out. Keeping your retaining walls under 4' high will make them non-structural (at least here, not sure what your codes are up there) and you don't have to engineer them, just throw some big boulders in, embedded 1' deep and you're set. Boulders should be very easy to come by if anyone is doing any foundation excavation on the valley floor. Trucking is $65-70/hr.

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Originally Posted by grskier

Um, you should have someone with experience do the blasting, and if you're doing blasting, you'll need a coring rig.

As a civil engineer, I'll say be careful with the retaining wall design and construction, it can be very tricky depending on materials. I don't know the parameters of where this is going in, so I'll stop there.

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How many years of experience do you have? If the answer is 2-ish, and you want to move up to the hills, pm me.

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Originally Posted by homerjay

Seriously, get quotes from equipment rental outfits and/or excavation subcontractors. Same goes for the blasting, that will need to be contracted out. Keeping your retaining walls under 4' high will make them non-structural (at least here, not sure what your codes are up there) and you don't have to engineer them, just throw some big boulders in, embedded 1' deep and you're set. Boulders should be very easy to come by if anyone is doing any foundation excavation on the valley floor. Trucking is $65+70/hr.

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we are working on 40% grades, with no wider than a 30" bed. There will be no 'boulder-trucking'. ( no access to site possible) The entire upper mountain is a big pile of shale, and the trail has to be virtually invisible to winter operations, so basically no retaining walls at all, unless I can hide them deep in the trees. This is actually going to be a very technically challenging project. There are very, very few excavation crews that have any experience with these parameters, and those that do are booked. It is up to me to become that expert. Stealth, Pro, sustainable, and world class in terms of trail flow is what I am looking to accomplish... It is a specialized skillset, and very specialized (and hard to rent) equipment. Should be a learning experience...

I'd just like to add, that from my perspective of being interested in mtn biking but not having a clue about engineering, this is a very interesting post to read through. Continue.

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Originally Posted by homerjay

I'm a civil engineer and will gladly give you a cost estimate.

But I bill out at $95/hour.

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You're cheap... lol:smile:

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Originally Posted by rideit

Trail building is far from civil. I am afraid you are underqualified.

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I'd say you need to expand your idea of civil.;)

not that I love it, but it encompasses what I'm saying:
"The profession of Civil Engineering is the art of directing the great sources of the power of Nature for the use and convenience of Human Kind."
from wikidpedia

Now down to business:
I don't know what metro areas you have around you, but walk behinds can be rented from a lot of places. Any decent equipment rental place should (I guess it is a should condition) carry them.

Also, depending on the extent of the use, it might be cheaper to buy one.

one of the local bobcat dealers: http://www.bobcatoftherockies.com/pd...ule_02-062.pdf


What type of labor are you talking about?

Rates can vary, hopefully you don't have to pay davis bacon wages. I think it depends on where the $ comes from for the project (the more I learn about what our EEO officer does, the more I don't want to know). As far as equipment operators are concerned, if you are looking for minimal impact as far as a footprint, I doubt you'll need many, as you won't be able to get that type of machinery in there. Even a skidsteer is ~5' wide if not more
(actually, edit that:
http://www.unitedrentals.com/index.p...-Steers&id=150 ) .
This is ~ 4' wide:
http://www.unitedrentals.com/index.p...specifications

It sounds like you understand the computer side as well. A few things, flagging is cheap, use it, use plenty of it, and come up with your own system for something like this.

How many miles of trail are you planning on constructing? For every mile @ 3 foot wide, you're disturbing 0.36 acre of land. If water from the project will enter state waters, you may need a stormwater permit (for Colorado, the limit is one acre).

Remember, a lot of this is done with good ol' elbow grease man. A walk behind could save you guys a lot of aching backs (literally) and they get expensive to rent.

Other stuff:
Will you be felling trees?
Chainsaw and a stumpcutter : http://www.unitedrentals.com/index.p...&id=445&page=1


This site:
http://www.rentalsite.com/
could be of use finding what you need man.

or this one:
http://www.rentalhq.com

Also might be of use is a whacker if you want to get any compaction.

And now we are finally talking turkey! (maybe i came across as a bit less savvy, but I have lots of this stuff already factored...'keep it simple' can generate lots more possible contact info!)
Yup, this is a MoFo of a complicated directive. Boss wants unreal results, with unbelievably micro footprint. (as does the FS, of course)
Curious thing is that budget volume is not an issue, really, so experimental techniques can(and will) be employed in order to achieve desired results.
The problem?
I can only recieve what I am asking for, and I really don't know what to ask for, as the impending construction techniques will be unique, and experimental! (connundrum)
We NEED to keep the tread minute, but we also need to maximize available build time with mechanized techniques. if I could get a crew of 25 hard, prison labor workers, that would be the ticket.
If I were anywhere near a 'major urban area', that would alleviate the problem.
Fact is I have neither option available to me...finding a 6 man crew will be near to impossible, as it is.
So there we (sort of) have it...I am looking to build the tightest, best ST, with a tiny footprint, in the least amount of time, with budget $$$ not being as important as projected budget accuracy.
I hope any of that made sense at all.

Sounds like your best bet for use of mechanized equipment is to disturb a larger area than 30" and restore/regrade it. I really don't see any way to use mechanized equip on a 30" platform other than those ditch witch trail builder things. Doubt those will go through shale. Something else to consider is that the smaller the piece, the lower the power and the less likely it is to be able to move the rock, etc. Larger excavators can work on very steep (2:1?) sidehills with an experienced operator.

This is obviously a job for illegal immigrants, which I'm sure are plentiful up there for construction day labor.

Are you building trails on those cliffs below the Sac. chair?

Is that a penta-post? I don't think I've ever seen that before.

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Originally Posted by Ski Monkey

Is that a penta-post? I don't think I've ever seen that before.

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I feel like I can retire now.


fixed it

Well, remember that a lot of these rental places will deliver, I don't know what radius though. Or just get a buddy with a pickup and trailer and go for a day trip. You can do a lot with 6 people, it's more than you think. think about tasks for each one for 8 hours, a lot of the time it's not as easy as it sounds.

http://www.butlerequipmentsales.com/images/scoppy2.jpg
800mm or so track width...

sub three feet, should be great, if you can find one.

As I've been thinking about this and my experiences when I was younger building trails back east, one of the best tools we had was a dirt bike. Seriously, a buddy would come out and ride with us (sounds weird now) but he could ride something a few times and we'd have a tail blazed in no time. We'd kick some of the downed branches out of the way, and we'd have some nice ST.

Just another thought.

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Originally Posted by grskier

As I've been thinking about this and my experiences when I was younger building trails back east, one of the best tools we had was a dirt bike. Just another thought.

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I use a dirt bike for finish work and berming. Even a trials bike (Gas gas, anyone?) would be hard pressed to even go ten yards on this upper 40 degree shale/rock pile. I have tried.

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

Problem is - I don't drink!

Too bad you don't fit a Large Norco Fluid or I'd just lend you mine

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Hmmm...I certainly would be willing to trade you a fat meal for a day on it, if it fits better that I imagined. I am bringing the Titus, but it is more of a trail bike...

40 degree or 40%?

Big difference....

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Originally Posted by grskier

40 degree or 40%?

Big difference....

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40% slope angle, hoping for a max. 10 degree trail, with 5 outslope....

Shouldn't be too bad, you're only cutting 8ish degrees out of the slope.
;)

I'm guessing the resort will be paying wages, does your budget have to take into account the overhead for hiring and any bennies they might get?

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Originally Posted by rideit

Hmmm...I certainly would be willing to trade you a fat meal for a day on it, if it fits better that I imagined. I am bringing the Titus, but it is more of a trail bike...

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It's the same geometry as the current Fluids which you said didn't fit you. Like i said - Im 5/ 11", 32 cm inseam. Bike looks like this. Lots of standover

http://www.leelau.net/2002/disney/leeawesome.jpg

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

It's the same geometry as the current Fluids which you said didn't fit you. Like i said - Im 5/ 11", 32 cm inseam. Bike looks like this. Lots of standover

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I am building up a Large Fluid tonight for the shop I am affiliated with, I will check it out. I think I threw a leg over an XL. What did you do to your knee, If I might ask?

I had a controlled crash on a trail here and grabbed my bike to stop it from cartwheeling into rocks - planted my knee and torqued it hard - i think its sprained MCL.