Intuition liner pain

I baked my new-to-me Intuitions yesterday with the help of bio-smear, following directions found here and at TTips, and tried skiing in them today. These things are tight! Only lasted 2 runs before having to sit down and fully unbuckle. After many adjustments, I skied out the rest of the morning, then called it quits around 12:30.

These liners feel like skiing in a cast. I can't move my foot, but there aren't any pressure points or hot spots -- it's just very very tight all around.

These are supposed to break in/ pack out in a couple days, right? Are they going to get more comfortable?

Initial impressions:

Pro: immediate response, no slop in the boot at all, warmer than stock liners
Con: much stiffer than stock liners (hard to flex - kept feeling pushed into the back seat), not much shock absorption (crud day - every impact is transmitted straight through your foot and leg)

mine felt wierd to me also for the first 6 or so times I used them, just felt stiff and odd. then I just got used to it, don't really know what happened exactly. They will also keep molding to your foot more as you ski them. I'd recommend just pushing through for a few days. I am loving them now, no pressure points, super light and warm

I had heard that because they are not fully molded yet you end up making your boots too tight at first (or something like that). I was told this by one of the best bootfitters in the country.

All I know is that mine friggin rule....Give em a few days..

El-C are these the morrow snowboarding ones? or some others(if so, which boots are they in? [/hijack]

did you mold them with some toe caps? also ski without a footbed for the first day or so to let them pack out,

Maybe reheat with the buckles tighter (to help pack the liner thinner)

if the shells worked with the old liners the new ones will wokr, give it some time

Did you get them from Bud? He's pretty good with bootfitting, and helped me really get mine dialed in. Custom footbeds will also REALLY help maximize the fit/comfort that the Intuitions can offer. For the first few days that you use them, I reccommend keeping a couple different thickness socks in your ski bag, and change them out as necessary as the liners pack. I would estimate the break in period to be a good solid ten days of use.

Be ready for some shin bang, especially if you're using a somewhat low or freeride cut boot. They'll feel great once they're dialed in, but because they are so much thinner than stock liners they tend to be a lot less forgiving when you really tweak your legs in a wreck or landing airs wrong. They also have a tendency to keep you [me] in the toilet --- mostly because of the shin issue. I have switched to a race boot with a really high cuff to try and sidestep the shin pain as much as possible. Eliminators and/or booster straps may also help, but I haven't tried them yet.

ALSO, if you heated them and 1: didn't stand pretty much perfectly still for at least 10 min while cooling, 2: molded them with too much forward pressure, or 3: molded them while leaning back too far, they will never feel right. Take them out and remold.

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Originally Posted by mntlion

did you mold them with some toe caps? also ski without a footbed for the first day or so to let them pack out,

Maybe reheat with the buckles tighter (to help pack the liner thinner)

if the shells worked with the old liners the new ones will wokr, give it some time

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^^^^^^^^^^
I concur...... try re heating and make sure you have some toe caps ( if none are to hand, i usually chop the toes off 2 pair of old beat socks, put the toes on and then the skis socks).

When you've heated them and you're in, crank them to where you'd normally have the buckles and then take them one click more all round .... leave for 15 mins and wait for the pain to kick in.

You should be sweet after this and a couple of days packing out.

Another toe cap endorsement...

Also, rather than cranking the buckles tighter, consider molding with socks that are slightly thicker than you'd usually wear. If you wear extra-lights, consider molding with lights or mediums. Similar effect to cranking the buckles, but it'll mold them with the shell exactly where it'll be when you ski. The extra mm or so that you get makes a huge difference for things like circulation, foot expansion, etc...

FWIW - I never noticed any breaking in or packing out at all in the pair I used.

BLOODSWEAT -

Definitely get some Booster Straps. My only complaint on my Intuitions was shin bang, and it disappeared once I got some Boosters (make sure they go under the shell at the tongue).

Bunch of responses... thanks -- I'll try to answer all:

Xtr- these are the silvery looking alpine boot liners, with overlap, not the Morrow snowboard ones that have a separate tongue. The boots are Tecnica Diablo 130.

mntlion - I molded them with homemade toe caps: 2 toes off regular socks, little padding taped between big toe (& adjoining) and little toe (& adjoining). Toe space isn't the problem at all. My toes actually feel pretty comfy. It's the overall stiff feeling of being locked in a cast that's painful.

I'm going to try skiing them a few more days and see how the initial pack-out goes. If it's still too tight, I'll remold them but tighten the buckles down more this time -- I left them intentionally pretty loose.

BLOOD-- I got them used, not from Bud. I have custom footbeds that Bud made, that work pretty well. I'm using them in the Intuitions. I molded the liners with the custom footbeds taped to my feet, with toe caps on, and with a very thin liner sock over the whole foot/ cap/ footbed.

The Intuitions feel thicker than my stock liners, except for the cuff, where the stock liners were more padded. Tecnica Diablo 130 stock liners are very very thin and cold. I do have Booster straps on the boots.

When I heated them and got in the boots, I banged the heels back into the shell, then I stood still for 10 minutes, with toes of the boots up on a book about 2" tall. I stood straight up, stood still.

Sounds like you did everything pretty much right on. As far as the book method, I have heard pros and cons both ways. Personally, I don't elevate. When you molded, did you make sure to put the inside flap - inside? Did you put the toe caps over your toes AND the footbed before putting the socks on?

I'm not sure if youre are different than mine. I use the older black liners that say ALIPNE on the back. --- FWIW. :confused:

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Originally Posted by BLOODSWEATSTEEL

When you molded, did you make sure to put the inside flap - inside? Did you put the toe caps over your toes AND the footbed before putting the socks on?

I'm not sure if youre are different than mine. I use the older black liners that say ALIPNE on the back. --- FWIW. :confused:

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Mine are these -- bought them from trouble --
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...tuition+liners

The overlap is correct. Toe caps went over toes (w/ spacers stuffed between) and over footbed (taped to my bare foot), then thin sock went over toe caps & footbeds.

I'm thinking this may just be part of the break-in process. I just had no idea that heat-molded foam would end up feeling like cast concrete.

I'm also going to try softening up my boot shells by taking out 1 or 2 of the bolts in the back of the cuff. Easy to do, and easy to return to stock if it doesn't help.

Did you cook them in your home oven? Sounds like you might have overbaked or underbaked. I would really recommend getting access to a proper Thermoflex oven. I know plenty of people swear by the home method, but I think there is just too much room for error. Also, I would not recommend skiing the boots w/out the footbed as suggested above. As the liner is molded to the footbed also, the fit would not be very nice without the footbed in there.

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Originally Posted by Darkside

Did you cook them in your home oven? Sounds like you might have overbaked or underbaked. I would really recommend getting access to a proper Thermoflex oven. I know plenty of people swear by the home method, but I think there is just too much room for error. Also, I would not recommend skiing the boots w/out the footbed as suggested above. As the liner is molded to the footbed also, the fit would not be very nice without the footbed in there.

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Cooked in the home oven: heat to 300ish, turn down to 200, wait for gas flame to go off, stick liners in on cold wire shelf, wait about 8-10 minutes for it to get big & puffy.

What's an overbaked liner look like? Underbaked = not soft enough, but over?

If you're underbaked, you either need to sport for something of a higher quality, or step up the intake. If your budget necessitates the latter, I suggest 4 foot blown glass or gravity.

I really don't see any problem with being overbaked...as long as the fridge is stocked.

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Originally Posted by bagtagley

If you're underbaked, you either need to sport for something of a higher quality, or step up the intake. If your budget necessitates the latter, I suggest 4 foot blown glass or gravity.

I really don't see any problem with being overbaked...as long as the fridge is stocked.

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I was leaning towards picking up the Super Nobis edition -- think this'll be sufficient?

pardon the intrusion... I've been looking into Intuitions too... and I seem to recall them saying they can be re"baked" 2 or 3 times and then they shrink / get hard... true? and if so, could that be at work here?

[mild hijack] ... and above it was mentioned that the intuitions are thinner than "normal" liners... if I have to run my boots near last buckle notch now, will I be able to use intuitions? [/mild hijack]

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Originally Posted by Z

I had heard that because they are not fully molded yet you end up making your boots too tight at first (or something like that). I was told this by one of the best bootfitters in the country.

All I know is that mine friggin rule....Give em a few days..

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Word, I heard advice about molding them but NOT claming em down super tight...just taking them out of the oven, puttin them in your boots and LIGHTLY clamping down the bucks...

I didnt understand this concept and clamped em down like I was going skiing, so when I skied in them in just half a day they seemed to pack out even more and ended up being too loose....


so now Im gonna re-mold mine tonight with a little thicker sock and not clamped down super hard...

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Originally Posted by MOHSHSIHd

Word, I heard advice about molding them but NOT claming em down super tight...just taking them out of the oven, puttin them in your boots and LIGHTLY clamping down the bucks...

I didnt understand this concept and clamped em down like I was going skiing, so when I skied in them in just half a day they seemed to pack out even more and ended up being too loose....


so now Im gonna re-mold mine tonight with a little thicker sock and not clamped down super hard...

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I agree with this. I had mine molded by the boot pros at Snowcovers and asked how tight to clamp down the boot. I have a small instep and ankles relative to my foot size and wanted more volume there - so they said to leave the buckles at the ankles and instep loose to give the liner room to expand in the cooling down phase.

phish - just go have larry do them.

and you want them buckled significantly harder than skiing. like 2 notches tighter if you don;t want them to pack out later

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Originally Posted by marshalolson

phish - just go have larry do them.

and you want them buckled significantly harder than skiing. like 2 notches tighter.

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no shit?



In wolf creek I felt like I was skiing with Uggs glued to my skis....and they were fucking CRANKED when I molded them....

Now Im confused. The boot gods at snowcovers said to leave them buckled loose but then marshal - who knows his stuff- said to crank the boots down.

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Originally Posted by marshalolson

phish - just go have larry do them.

and you want them buckled significantly harder than skiing. like 2 notches tighter if you don;t want them to pack out later

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Say whaaaa? Talk to Larry dude. Loosely buckled, so the the liner will fill out your boot....

This is how mine were done and i couldn't be happier.

If you crank down the buckles really tight when molding, won't that create more space in your boot? And then if it packs out later, could be too loose?

On the other hand, if you leave the buckles loose (like I did), that seems to allow the foam to harden and take up more space -- so when I tighten down the boot for skiing, it feels tight, but if it packs out later, I can just tighten the buckles down a bit.

I'm confused too.

yeah when I did mine years ago they were left very loose.

it doesn't make any sense to overtighten them for the molding process IMO

chup, maybe you just don't need to crank your buckles down quite so much?

good point. the better support/fit means not as tight of buckling. i tend to barely buckle my lower 2. pretty much tight enough so they don;t open while skiing...

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Originally Posted by lemon boy

chup, maybe you just don't need to crank your buckles down quite so much?

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The lower two (on the foot) are on the first notch. Plenty tight right there, and I can open/close the buckles with my ski pole basket.

The upper two (on the leg) -- the lower of them is on the second notch (snug, not uncomfortable); the upper is on the third notch (w/ Booster directly on the liner -- also not uncomfortable).

The pain is mainly from the foot being very tight, and from the boot feeling like it doesn't flex forward like it used to. The Intuition liner is a lot stiffer flexing than I expected.

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Originally Posted by flatNshallow

pardon the intrusion... I've been looking into Intuitions too... and I seem to recall them saying they can be re"baked" 2 or 3 times and then they shrink / get hard... true? and if so, could that be at work here?

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It should be more like 5-6 times if they are the same as the snowboard ones. Here's a decent how-to on cooking/molding them (note: Alpine SB boots are basically the same as Ski Boots for this conversation - they have way more lateral flex than ski boots but that doesn't matter in this context). LINK HERE - oh, and he sells liners but only in the great white north

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[mild hijack] ... and above it was mentioned that the intuitions are thinner than "normal" liners... if I have to run my boots near last buckle notch now, will I be able to use intuitions? [/mild hijack]

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YMMV, but I've just straight swapped before. After molding, they may be a bit firmer than regular liners.

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Originally Posted by mntlion

did you mold them with some toe caps?

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YES, this is a good idea. Neoprene toe caps work best, but your method is probably fine.

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also ski without a footbed for the first day or so to let them pack out

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NO NO NO. Mold them w/ your footbed in there and ski it that way.

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Maybe reheat with the buckles tighter (to help pack the liner thinner)

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Not a good idea, IMO. You'll end up with a boot that you can't get tight enough when you want it tight.

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El Chup: There are lots of shops in the area that can do the work if you give up on the home method. The last time I had Intuition liners (then called Raichle in my Alpine SB boots) molded was at Surefoot at Squaw when I had them make me footbeds. They did a good job. They do pack out after a few days. In fact, I eventually added some padding around the heels. Since I bought footbeds from them, Surefoot did the molding in exchange for a six pack. Elite Feet at Squaw Creek also has the oven to mold them and a couple of great guys to do work (Brian and Christian are awesome).

There are loads of threads over on www.bomberonline.com forums. Over there, search for Thermoflex in addition to Intuition - they are still known as Thermoflex in the SB community for the most part (it was a Raichle TM, I think).

does anybody know if footloose in mammoth is able to mold the intuitions?

:drumroll:

...........Why don't you call them and ask?

Intuition uses the Ultralon EVA foam which is the stiffest thermo-type foam I've come across (much stiffer than the original Raichle Thermoflex stuff). Also, when heated the Ultralon foam expands a heck of a lot more and it can be tough to get them formed correctly with your foot in the boot.

A few tips:
1. Heat them for 10 minutes at 275 in your oven (on a couple layers of foil to prevent the rack from burning them).
2. You really don't need to tape your footbed to your foot and actually I recommend you don't. Why? This let's you put the footbed into the liner after you pull it from the oven and make sure that the footbed is properly lined up in the liner (seam down the center in the bottom / heel about 1" below the ankle area).
3. Definitely use some kind of toe caps to make sure you have wiggle room. If you have 6th toe issues you should cut your toe caps a bit longer to the outside of your foot so that they cover the 6th toe area.
4. DON'T bang your heel back into the pocket. This is one of the biggest mistakes. Doing this actually ends up giving you a looser heel pocket. The better method is to put your toes up on top of a 2x4, then face a wall and push against it driving your heel back and down hard. Try to hold this position for at least the first few minutes while the liner is cooling. Don't wiggle around much and don't flex too far forward.
5. Try to set your buckles at exactly the mid-point of their adjustment range. This will compress the liner enough that it will fit into the shell nicely and still leave enough adjustment to crank down the boot if necessary.

Wild4umlauts is wise....
First of all NEVER buy used intuitions, the initial new fit is critical (take a look at them out of the box). I personally thought it was pretty much a one shot deal, and you could re-cook them if you needed later refinement for the same boot/foot, but I could be wrong on that.
I would strongly recommend a good boot fitter who has experience with them. Getting them on and in the boot with the footbeds with everything sitting right is tough.
The first 7-10 days they were so increadibly tight I did not think I could deal with them, but they soon became perfect. Definitely go 1 size smaller on your liner then the shell size you have (25 liner into a 26 shell), they won't pack out as much, and go just snug (middle range) on the buckles when molding.
I banged back my heel and it still feels tight but I'll remember that in the future...

el Chucab,

I feel your pain. I have Intuitions which were shaped for me by Bud at Snowind. I have likes and dislikes with them and I posted them on a previous thread which I had bumped. I now have about 8 days on them. They do get better and break in over time but I am not totally thrilled with the discomfort or lack of comfort. Performance is very good (light and quick) and they are warmer and much stiffer than my stock Nordica Beast (05/06)liners.

I used to ski with my Beasts on the stiffest setting and now they are almost on the softest.

I may go to Elite Feet at Squaw and get refitted if they don't improve in a few days.

I'm curious if the size of the Intuition liner may have something to do with how tight they fit. I saw these liners sell over in the gear swap. You said they were a size 12 liner but you put them in a 27 or 28 shell.

If I understand these liners properly they become almost like a liquid when you heat them. They will basically take any shape you want them to. So if you stuffed a larger liner in a smaller shell wouldn't all that extra material need to go somewhere? Woudln't that cause the boot to be unbearably tight?

I'm just trying to learn everything I can about these liners before I throw down the cash for a pair.