Fritchi's, Ramp Angle, and ACL's, oh my!

Random question for people with experience with Fritchi's...

My GF just found out this morning that the pop she heard on Saturday at Squaw was indeed her ACL, not sure to what degree, but it is definitely f'd. It really sucks, she is my favorite person to ski with...

This is a roundabout way to find a reason for this happening, however... hear me out.

How many folks use fritchi's with a heel plate, and do you think that the relatively flat ramp sans plate would ever increase the likelyhood of an ACL injury by throwing one in the back seat? I guess question 2 is for those of you that do use some sort of plate, do you recommend it?

This whole thing just blows either way, and I want to see if for next year we should both get something thrown under the heel either way...

At least it was Saturday afternoon, so we were able to have a sick day prior to the pop lapping broken arrow...

I definitely feel like Fritchis push me into the backseat - which is not something I ever feel with normal bindings. I took the toe shim out, but they still feel... off. Like I'm fighting for my balance instead of just skiing. I think I'm going to try adding some heel shims next, but haven't tried it yet.

a.g. i bet that your feeling is more from being high off the ski rather than the ramp angle in that case.

i had a 'oh lord no please' moment on my freerides this past week though. jumped 20 ft to flat and in the back seat a bit, blew up, felt the knee tingle. luckily it's just a cartiledge bruise, but after that and other stories from this year....i'm not skiing my freerides every day anymore, just too risky.

Very sorry to hear this news; I hope hers is indeed a quick recovery. :(

In short, no the Fritschi is not responsible. As far as ramp angles go, it (the lack of) is pretty slight (1-2 degrees?) that I don't think this would be a serious contributing factor. There are so many things that could cause a change in balance to a much greater degree (sudden terrain change, for one).

On a related note: Rather than add something under the heel, some folks remove the insert under the toe piece to add some ramp angle. Are you using AT or alpine boots? If AT, you could also grind the sole under the toe a bit to increase the angle as well as (a) ensure that your forward lean is set to the max forward position and (b) add a spoiler.

Many ACLs have been torn before Fritschis were ever a gleam in their inventor's eye.

This probably has more to do with style and overall "aggressiveness" (getting in the front seat on any terrain/any condition) than the binding factor.

Scheisse, so you think that Freerides arent a great everyday binder? She has them on her pow boards for AT and inbounds pow days...

Fritschis are flat, with no ramp angle, and I agree that they put you in the backseat more than normal downhill bindings. I recalled a post by dude-le about a heel lift he was manufacturing, but not sure whateve came of it???

http://tetongravity.com/forums/showt...ride+heel+lift

edit: removing the front toe piece, although done by some, was reviewed from an engineering/physics aspect by someone - forget whom - and not recommended. I forget the details.

Also, I'd like to add that my perspective may be skewed in that I do ride either Fritschis or Dynafits every single day...so it could certainly be that I am more used to them than one who switches up between alpine & AT.

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Originally Posted by ulty_guy

a.g. i bet that your feeling is more from being high off the ski rather than the ramp angle in that case. .

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I have a pair of Atomic SX-9's with riser plates and demo bindings which are pretty damn high and I don't feel off balance at all with those. And certainly not in the backseat. But the Fritchis feel like they're pushing me backwards on every ski I've tried them on. Personally, there's no way in hell I'd use Fritchis unless I'm touring.

Yeah, good point upallnight...

Either way nothing can be done now, just sucks. Thanks for the help.

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Originally Posted by Evmo

Scheisse, so you think that Freerides arent a great everyday binder? She has them on her pow boards for AT and inbounds pow days...

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With (conservatively) 500+ days on Fritschis over the years, I have to say that I don't think the equipment is to blame.

(Errr....I'm riding my Dynafits today just to be safe. ;-))

By themselves, I don't have much of a problem with the bindings, but when combined with AT boots, I was often driving from the backseat. When skiing this setup primarily lift-served sidecountry, I use aggressive alpine boots (130 flex Nordica Hot Rod), and for touring use the G Adrenalin set to maximum forward lean, a heel shim and Boosters. This has solved a lot of the backseat problems. There are some good heel shim solutions in Tech Talk. May be interesting to hear feedback from maggots that have tried that solution.

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Originally Posted by upallnight

With (conservatively) 500+ days on Fritschis over the years, I have to say that I don't think the equipment is to blame.

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Seconded.

I use my fritschis inbounds even here as my everyday binder in the east. I just have learned to alter my forward lean and body positioning to account for the "backseat" feel the fritschis provide.

Just thought of another factor -- people who use alpine boots on Fritschis may notice this issue a bit more as there is genrally less ankle flex (though they do have more ramp angle than AT boots). That could make the feeling of being in the backseat harder to deal with as it's harder to actually flex into a neutral position. What I mean is that such ankle flex to get out of the "backseat" with an alpine boot would pressure the tip of the ski, whereas an AT boot might allow one to flex a touch to get out of the back seat before engaging the tip of the ski.

Just a thought; not sure that it holds any water...trying to pose a theory as to why people have extreme differing opinions here ("I would never ever trust this binding every day" vs. plenty of folks I know who ski you-fall-you-die terrain with them...people who we all would acknowledge as some top skiers in the world). I mean, I'm an OK skier, but if Fritschis can be trusted by some who are arguably the best in the world....then I think they should be good enough for us mortals.

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Originally Posted by peterslovo

Seconded.

I use my fritschis inbounds even here as my everyday binder in the east. I just have learned to alter my forward lean and body positioning to account for the "backseat" feel the fritschis provide.

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Yeah...."hips forward". It's easier, cheaper, and less work to try than adding shims.

All good points, and she does use alpine boots, so who knows.

I guess at the end of the day the binders aren't at fault (I didnt think they were, just figured I would ask if anyone has seen similar stuff)...

Here's to her getting out there next season... Thanks guys

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Originally Posted by upallnight

Yeah...."hips forward". It's easier, cheaper, and less work to try than adding shims.

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All that said, I'd still try shims if available!

And Evmo, best of luck to your gfriend.

I dont know if you can blame the binding for what happened. I do know from my own experience skiing on freerides, I feel lots of lateral play and a general lack of response when I lay into a turn. I really dont have much confidence in them. that being said, freerides are pretty heavy for walking uphill compared to other touring bindings. imo, crappy downhill performance doesnt justify the weight gain for going uphill.

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Originally Posted by upallnight

Just thought of another factor -- people who use alpine boots on Fritschis may notice this issue a bit more as there is genrally less ankle flex (though they do have more ramp angle than AT boots). That could make the feeling of being in the backseat harder to deal with as it's harder to actually flex into a neutral position. What I mean is that such ankle flex to get out of the "backseat" with an alpine boot would pressure the tip of the ski, whereas an AT boot might allow one to flex a touch to get out of the back seat before engaging the tip of the ski.

Just a thought; not sure that it holds any water...trying to pose a theory as to why people have extreme differing opinions here ("I would never ever trust this binding every day" vs. plenty of folks I know who ski you-fall-you-die terrain with them...people who we all would acknowledge as some top skiers in the world). I mean, I'm an OK skier, but if Fritschis can be trusted by some who are arguably the best in the world....then I think they should be good enough for us mortals.

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Maybe... I do use alpine boots FWIW. But Lynx uses Freerides pretty much every day with alpine boots and says she doesn't notice them. Who knows. Could be mounting point too though, maybe?

It's not that I can't ski well in them. Just that it's more difficult. And I think removing the toe shims helped some - just not enough to fix the problem. I just need to make some more adjustments, I think. I'm getting my knee scoped in a few hours so I won't be on them for at least a month or so anyway. But I'm definitely going to try figuring something out to add to the heels.

And it's not that I dont TRUST the binding for every day (I did break a pair, but it wasn't catastrophic and they warranted it). It's that I hate the way the feel. So for lift served skiing, I'm going to ski on bindings that I love. I think if I wanted to get used to compensating for the zero ramp angle I should ski them all the time. But I guess I figure it's better to try and modify them to ski more like regular bindings, where I'm already balanced.

I'm not saying that I think they're dangerous, or cause knee problems, etc. Just that I wish they skied more like regular bindings.

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Originally Posted by altagirl

So for lift served skiing, I'm going to ski on bindings that I love.

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Yes...I think it's all about what we feel most comfortable with (and love!!).

Good luck with the 'scope. Hope you're back on snow soon.

Slices of time, jumbled chunklets, osterized with ostrich ostricized eunichs. Flatulent ramp rangles titillate teetering triumvirates if trilliums topple. Topless Toppenish ta-tas tickling tall buildings in a single sound. Shaken, not stirred, not bruised, but titrated at the full moon so as to gently trickle the consequences into the alembic.

Oh the songs of the binding, sung far off on the roiling seas. Great sagas of slogging, releasing and stepping in with a background chorus of wine, technoblather and innuendo, but not Menudo with or without Ricky. Slopes, angles, radii, degrees, percentages, incentives, retentives, calliope music with demonic leers from the merry-g-round horses.

But anyway, for the zillionth time, no. I have never had a problem with my Fritsche I's, II's or Freerides except possibly a few times in egg carton, Dolly Parton bumps.

But when asked about the Dali museum, my parents were surprised when the retort involved country music.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Slices of time, jumbled chunklets, osterized with ostrich ostricized eunichs. Flatulent ramp rangles titillate teetering triumvirates if trilliums topple. Topless Toppenish ta-tas tickling tall buildings in a single sound. Shaken, not stirred, not bruised, but titrated at the full moon so as to gently trickle the consequences into the alembic.

Oh the songs of the binding, sung far off on the roiling seas. Great sagas of slogging, releasing and stepping in with a background chorus of wine, technoblather and innuendo, but not Menudo with or without Ricky. Slopes, angles, radii, degrees, percentages, incentives, retentives, calliope music with demonic leers from the merry-g-round horses.

But anyway, for the zillionth time, no. I have never had a problem with my Fritsche I's, II's or Freerides except possibly a few times in egg carton, Dolly Parton bumps.

But when asked about the Dali museum, my parents were surprised when the retort involved country music.

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can i have some of whatever you're smoking buster?

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Originally Posted by peterslovo

can i have some of whatever you're smoking buster?

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Same, I imagine it would be better than whatever they offer pre-surgery...

dude! serious bummer. very sorry to hear this.

see you this weekend still?

Mos def, parents arrive Thurs PM, will prob do Squaw on Sat (going to get the rents up to high camp...)

Annie is not a happy camper...

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Originally Posted by ulty_guy

i had a 'oh lord no please' moment on my freerides this past week though. jumped 20 ft to flat and in the back seat a bit, blew up, felt the knee tingle. luckily it's just a cartiledge bruise, but after that and other stories from this year....i'm not skiing my freerides every day anymore, just too risky.

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20ft to flat in the backseat... that'll do it no matter WHAT binder you're strapped into.

My freerides have never failed me in the 3yrs of very hard skiing on em inbounds/and OB. I even raced on them for a season cause it was my only set up at the time (cleaned up and really pissed off some HC racer types). I don't feel don't push me into the backseat anymore than my atomic GS11's w/412's, but I do have the freerides mounted 1cm forward.

Don't blame the bindings- blame technique / judgement. I unfortunately have done both ACL's skiing (2nd in 1996-last time I skied on 207's) and both times was the result poor judgement on my part not equipment.

so like i was trying to get parts for cheap to build those shimmies but i never could. i have a set. they work, basically you get a similar feel then on your regular alpines, i find... I ride evereyday with alpine touring buindings and boots. i just got used to it. my touring boots fit almost like a race boot though. i like this set-up because it always work the same, i don't have a different feel when i am riding in or out.

but eh, is there any long term users of the few shimmies i sent out ??

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Originally Posted by Highway Star

Yeah, freerides are awesome. I can't see how anybody could have a problem with how they ski.....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Seriously, I think they suck.

Very few modern alpine bindings have (near) zero ramp, but some do, specifically Atomic Race and I believe Look P18's, or are at least close. Do these bindings ski funny vs. regular stepins? Yes. Is the (lack of) ramp noticeable? Yes. Do these bindings and freerides ski funny because of the zero ramp. NO! All these bindings ski differently because various design choices. Atomics use a sliding track for the toepiece which is connected to and anchored at the heel, for a free flexing arrangement. P18's use a turntable heel, which lets the tail of the ski flex easier.

If you take a standard pair of salomons, and add lift to the toe until you have zero ramp, they will not ski like looks, atomics or freerides - they will ski like salomons with zero ramp. I have done this on multiple pairs of skis over the years, and regularly adjust binding delta to suit the feel of the ski, it's mounting point, and intended use. I also adjust boot forward lean of my boots sometimes - I find that the change to your forward lean of the boot caused by the change in ramp is much more noticeable than the actual change at you foot sole. If you change binding ramp, and compensate for the change with a forward lean adjustment, the actual change to the angle of your foot is hard to notice. Typically, I find that a zero ramp works best on carving skis (or skis that I carve alot on) and on forward mounted newschool skis where the "sweet spot" tends to be in the back seat. Older style skis that may not be as carving biased or have a rearward mount point tend to work better with with some more forward lean or ramp angle. So yes, having zero ramp angle translates into a "back seat" feeling, but there is something else going on...

So why do freerides SUCK? Why do they ski funny? Well, it's because the heel is free floating, and the toe pivots. Got that? Your boot is attached to a rail. The front of the rail is attached at a single pivot, and rear of the rail is secured only from moving vertically and laterally - it sildes back and forth as much as it wants. You pick up a certain amount of support from the red plastic bumpers under the heel, but these are limited in their effect as the ski flexes. All this translates into poor snow feel and detached feelling on the skis, and makes it hard to drive the ski off the heel while finishing the turn. How this plays out in everyone's skiing varies. Some people are ok, some aren't.

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Great first Post - welcome Highway Star :rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by Highway Star

So why do freerides SUCK? Why do they ski funny? Well, it's because the heel is free floating, and the toe pivots. Got that? Your boot is attached to a rail. The front of the rail is attached at a single pivot, and rear of the rail is secured only from moving vertically and laterally - it sildes back and forth as much as it wants. You pick up a certain amount of support from the red plastic bumpers under the heel, but these are limited in their effect as the ski flexes. All this translates into poor snow feel and detached feelling on the skis, and makes it hard to drive the ski off the heel while finishing the turn. How this plays out in everyone's skiing varies. Some people are ok, some aren't.

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Amusingly this is the same manner in which the captive plates that carvers love operate :confused:

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Originally Posted by ulty_guy

i bet that your feeling is more from being high off the ski

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This is the one thing I dislike (and have to get used to each time) about my Fritchi's. The height definitely changes the sensation of skiing as compared to normal bindings.