Question on hucking

I took avy I today, and some of my companions asked me (away from the supervision of our instructors so I only conjectured) what happens if you are alone, watching your buddy from above huck a 20-footer, and the impact triggers a slide.

We agreed the options were A) huck it into his bombhole onto an apparently recently stabilized snowpack (assuming activity is attributed to the top several inches of the snowpack as it was at Berthoud today); B) ski around the cliff, which for our purposes we will assume involves skiing a similar snowpack and aspect; C) descend your ascent, even if it delays searching A LOT.

I would probably say C (not sure, the other options seem to jeopardize your own safety, and thus the entire rescue, but if the descent of your skin route takes you significant time, is it worththe risk?) But it brought to mind the thought of hucking as a function of perceived instability. How much more stress on the snowpack does a 20 ft. huck place than making fast turns? How do you gauge the feasibility of hucking vs. just making turns?

This is a serious avy jong question, I know, but I'm still trying to figure out the connection between what your pit(s) and/or recent activity tell you and what's ok to ski/do.

What signs of the snowpack do you look for that tell you it's ok to ski a steep cliffed out line that you've been looking at but not to send the cliff on that line?

OR: is it that if you're comfortable skiing the line, you should be comfortable placing additional stress on the snowpack by hucking something in most BC enthusiasts' comfort zone (15-30ish?)?

Any hucking in the BC places a HUGE impact in the snowpack...even if it's a 5-footer. This is much more of an impact than surfing high-speed turns. In fact, high-speed turns can place less stress on the snowpack than slow bouncing turns, as the deformation under/around the skier will be less as the skier is on an upper layer of the snowpack.

Maybe there is one more option: a spotter should go down first and e in (a) a safe, (b) below the jump -- i.e., in a real position to do something without getting hurt or into further trouble -- unless there is an absolutely 100% safe way to get down to your buddy from above if that situation occurs.

This applies to mere mortals, not superstars.

Seriously...hucking in the BC is not something to be taken lightly.

(That said, it's totally possible to do it safely.)

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Originally Posted by Max Gosey

What signs of the snowpack do you look for that tell you it's ok to ski a steep cliffed out line that you've been looking at but not to send the cliff on that line?

OR: is it that if you're comfortable skiing the line, you should be comfortable placing additional stress on the snowpack by hucking something in most BC enthusiasts' comfort zone (15-30ish?)?

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Again, the decision to huck is quite separate.

Rider ability does come into play -- if you're going to stick the landing and come off with major speed, you could outrun a slide (definitely not recommended for mortals, natch)... Also depends on how big a slide could be triggered (i.e., if it's a wide-open bowl or a smaller snowfield.

I'd ski alot more lines than I would elect to huck off of. You could always carry a rope and get down to the lower snowfield with less impact -- assuming the hazard is significant.

If you're concerned about the stability, evaluate it on the way up in both places...and err on the side of caution. Your wager is your (or your friend's) life.

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Originally Posted by Max Gosey

I took avy I today, and some of my companions asked me (away from the supervision of our instructors so I only conjectured) what happens if you are alone, watching your buddy from above huck a 20-footer, and the impact triggers a slide.

We agreed the options were A) huck it into his bombhole onto an apparently recently stabilized snowpack (assuming activity is attributed to the top several inches of the snowpack as it was at Berthoud today); B) ski around the cliff, which for our purposes we will assume involves skiing a similar snowpack and aspect; C) descend your ascent, even if it delays searching A LOT.

This is a serious avy jong question, I know, but I'm still trying to figure out the connection between what your pit(s) and/or recent activity tell you and what's ok to ski/do.

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I don't fully understand what yer saying here max. So your buddy hucks, and the slope rips and buries him on impact? If this is true then all that is under you is the bed surface? If no hangfire, and you feel confident, huck to the bed surface as it is pretty safe having already slid...Especially if going around is a big delay, just hipcheck to the bed surface.....Yeah it may hurt a bit but it's yer buddies life here (the adrenaline will kill the pain). Or if you can find another patch of snow outside the slide area then huck to that, as close to the slide path as you can so you can get away if it wants to go as well. Drop to the high point you can (as in, don't boost 30 feet out) you want to be as high up on the slide as you can if it were to go.

If you are talking about hucking in general in the bc than here is my opinion....If a 10 foot huck could trigger a slide on a certain slope, but skiing the slope without hucking won't, then i don't really want to be on that slope. Know what I mean? Falling can be as big an impact as 10 feet, cartwheeling down the slope could be much worse. Yes a 50 foot bombhole puts a huge stress on the slope, and thats different. But if a slope can't take a 10-15foot smooth drop, then I don't want to ski it....


Sorta just shot that off, too much beer. Hope it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Z

I don't fully understand what yer saying here max. So your buddy hucks, and the slope rips and buries him on impact? If this is true then all that is under you is the bed surface? If no hangfire, and you feel confident, huck to the bed surface as it is pretty safe having already slid...Especially if going around is a big delay, just hipcheck to the bed surface.....Yeah it may hurt a bit but it's yer buddies life here (the adrenaline will kill the pain). Or if you can find another patch of snow outside the slide area then huck to that, as close to the slide path as you can so you can get away if it wants to go as well. Drop to the high point you can (as in, don't boost 30 feet out) you want to be as high up on the slide as you can if it were to go.

If you are talking about hucking in general in the bc than here is my opinion....If a 10 foot huck could trigger a slide on a certain slope, but skiing the slope without hucking won't, then i don't really want to be on that slope. Know what I mean? Falling can be as big an impact as 10 feet, cartwheeling down the slope could be much worse. Yes a 50 foot bombhole puts a huge stress on the slope, and thats different. But if a slope can't take a 10-15foot smooth drop, then I don't want to ski it....


Sorta just shot that off, too much beer. Hope it makes sense.

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Makes perfect sense. But my understanding (as a hucking JONG) is that the uppermost portion of the snowpack is what you want to land in, as it is usually the softest, yes? And if that goes, you've got a hard, potentially debilitating bed surface layer to land on. I don't really know what it's like to huck 30 ft, and maybe I shouldn't be asking this question until I do, but I would think that you wouldn't want to land on a bed surface due to risk of severe injury (that would not help your search) from that kind of height.

But if you say differently... then I stand corrected.

P.S. I guess what I'm beginning to realize is how incredibly circumstantial avy-related decisions in the BC are...

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Originally Posted by Max Gosey

P.S. I guess what I'm beginning to realize is how incredibly circumstantial avy-related decisions in the BC are...

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YES. Always be thinking...

Okay, 30ft to harder bed surface-not so fun. But just remember that you need to get to your buddy as quick as friggin possible. Just get there. Yeah 20 feet to hardpack will hurt a little but that's nothing for saving yer buddies life. It all depends on the situation. Take 5 seconds to think about the best/fastest possible way to get to your buddy and do it.....

Word. Word.

I debated posting in this, the what if game is el-sucko. Apologies in advance if this sounds dickish. That said, within the somewhat limited parameters of the situation:

Don't huck onto the bedsurface unless there is literally NO OTHER way down to your buddy. There is no assurance that your huck won't trigger another deeper layer and the time you spend collecting your shit after ragdolling is time your buddy spends dying, not to mention it may be hard and icy as shit. The time you spend going down the skin track is time your buddy spends dying. Use your spotter, ski around to the path and find your fucking buddy- he is dying.

Why did they ask you and not the instructor?
Why did you not ask the instructor?

You are a LONG way from dropping 20'ers to consequences in the BC.

edit- dropping stuff like that is the introduction of a huge X factor, if you break your leg (totally possible) your buddy is going to DIE

I agree with UAN here. in the backcountry you have a responsibility to stay within your means of self rescue. your buddy hucking 30 footers needs to have friends who know how to build a liter, set traction and haul his ass out if he breaks his leg. he also needs to be damn sure of the conditions before hucking. the bc isn't the type of place to learn new tricks. consequences are often overlooked when people decide drop in on a line. if you are skiing lines with mandatory airs, then you should be carrying rope for the time you get down there and find out it is a solid ice landing.

i'm kind of tired of thinking/reading what i'm typing but i will mention that not putting yourself or the group in the position to risk too much is the better approach.

I guess I need to train myself to think in terms of the absolute worst-case scenario, regardless of how improbable (and to be prepared in terms of both gear and knowledge).

Lemonboy, they asked me while we were doing a beacon drill before the mock rescue while the instructors were setting up for it. As you might imagine, we got a little preoccupied with the rescue and forgot completely about this hypothetical scenario so we never really got a chance to ask. I remembered later on and wanted to get the maggots' collective take on hucking in the BC.

Z, Blurred, Vicious, all you other CO maggots who I know go pretty big: what
kind of preparations do you undergo when you're dropping something big?

This has no direct effect on me obviously because A) I have a broken neck and B) I am a pansy and haven't hucked bigger than 10 ft, much less 20 ft. OB. Just trying to think in terms of hypotheticals (and in case I end up with some dude who wants to go really big).

APD: build a liter?

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Originally Posted by Max Gosey

Just trying to think in terms of hypotheticals (and in case I end up with some dude who wants to go really big).

APD: build a liter?

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build a sled, usually with your skis.


i chose who i tour with fairly carefully. if someone i trust tells me that they are competent or that they are atleast willing to talk thru conditions before doing something tricky, then i'll go out with them. i have walked away from tours because i didn't like how the group or an individual was acting. it only takes one person to fuck up a good tour. that person doesn't even have to be in your group. it's another reason i don't hang out too long where other people are riding. for instance, party A is out hucking on a shitty snowpack. the first to send it lands on a buried rock that he was unaware of, since he's not in that area frequently. he got a tib/fib and deformity w/ swelling in the thigh. on impact he had shooting cracks in the 30* snowpack around him. to both sides of the cliff the terrain is 35-45*, same aspect/elevation and drains into his LZ. party A has no med training but has taken a L1 avy course. party B sees what is going on and asks if they need assistance, to which the reply is "yes, get down here!". party B now has to put themselves at risk to help a group that couldn't help themselves in more ways than one. so max, hypothetically what would you expect both parties to do at this point?

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Originally Posted by Max Gosey

I Z, Blurred, Vicious, all you other CO maggots who I know go pretty big: what kind of preparations do you undergo when you're dropping something big?

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hucking in the b/c rules:

1. DON'T HUCK IN SKETCH AVY CONDITIONS
2. IF YOU CAN'T SEE OR CHECK OUT THE LANDING ZONE, DON'T DROP IT
3. DON'T ENTER OBVIOUS TERRAIN TRAPS
4. DON'T HUCK INTO SOMETHING THAT YOUR PATRNER CANNOT GET INTO TO GET YOU OUT OF
5. DON'T SKI WITH PEOPLE THAT DON'T FOLLOW THE RULES

marsh's 5 rules look pretty good.
but really it comes down to this.
repeat after me.

"I am a backcountry JONG.

I have a ton to learn about skiing in the godawefulwilderness.

I will always be learning.

If I am asking basic questions about hucking in the bc, then I should not be hucking there.

In time I will have learned enough to know when I can huck and how to do it safely.

I am a backcountry JONG".

old ma nature can and will beat you down. give her some respect and learn from her. take your time with the bc. good partners can take you a long way. and remember to listen to the little voice in your head saying "bad idea, bad idea" somehow it's usually right.

play safe, have fun.

APD
I like you question. When thinking of an answer, are you looking at it as a member of party B or as third party C to what should be done if A and B are now on scene?

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Originally Posted by miniracer

APD
I like you question. When thinking of an answer, are you looking at it as a member of party B or as third party C to what should be done if A and B are now on scene?

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more of a party C point of view, as an outsider looking in. max doesn't seem to want to reply but what i was getting at was trying to see if max can see how much is unforseen and how hard it is to get yourself out of a situation you shouldn't be in to begin with. you never know what another party is capable of and it doesn't always work to your benefit.

aside from all that, as party B there are some options to help recover the injured person. anyone have some thoughts on safe ways to reach the site?

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Originally Posted by AltaPowderDaze

aside from all that, as party B there are some options to help recover the injured person. anyone have some thoughts on safe ways to reach the site?

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I can think of a safe way but off hand I can't think of safe quick ways. You already covered some of the safe ways - rap off the launch spot down to victim; ski around and maybe back up bed surface to victim etc. Really the hypothetical puts the victim and potential rescuer in a tough spot

Sorry, I wasn't online earlier.

You have made your point, and, honestly, I really do not know what I would do at this point. I'd be fucked as an EMT for risk of abandonment (couldn't really document all that well if I felt unsafe... although I'm not sure if it applies nationally as an NREMT-B or if I'm safe because I'm not CO registered....)

I would say party B should acquire as much info as realistically possible from a distance, and if it seems the danger outweighs the potential benefits of their assistance, they should politely apologize and pray for the best. If the scenario allows for party B to help safely, that's what they should do. Assuming the weather is stable, should party B go for qualified help? What if the weather isn't stable, and everyone is subject to triggering new slides after a period of new loading on the snowpack?

What would you do, APD? What is the right answer?

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Originally Posted by Max Gosey

What would you do, APD? What is the right answer?

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that's the problem. there are no right answers, only those that are less wrong than the next.


relistically, party A might best be spotters and secondary help. they could possibly call for help or send someone that is strong (team of two w/ sketch conditions) and knows the area (provided that help is nearby. otherwise, you need all hands to drag them out). the only reasonable way out would be to boot back up and ski the uptrack and that's only valid if the conditions haven't drastically changed since the ascent. party B has their work cut out for them. their only goal at this point should be to keep the victim count at one and not make his situation worse. if he's actually bleeding into his leg, there's not much they can do but get him to definitive help quick.

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Originally Posted by marshalolson

hucking in the b/c rules:

1. DON'T HUCK IN SKETCH AVY CONDITIONS
2. IF YOU CAN'T SEE OR CHECK OUT THE LANDING ZONE, DON'T DROP IT
3. DON'T ENTER OBVIOUS TERRAIN TRAPS
4. DON'T HUCK INTO SOMETHING THAT YOUR PATRNER CANNOT GET INTO TO GET YOU OUT OF
5. DON'T SKI WITH PEOPLE THAT DON'T FOLLOW THE RULES

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6. DON'T HUCK ABOVE ANYONE ELSE. EVER.

(you may consider the slope stable, but it ain't cool to force your judgment on third parties).

One thing big hucking can do that skiing can't is penetrate deep into the snowpack to find buried weak layers.

7. Learn to walk before you even think about running.

Max - think how fucked you'd have been if your big accident had happened in the backcountry.

Correct answer to your friends question would have been "I/we are not qualified or experienced enough to be even thinking about this stuff and should be concentrating on learning the basics from our avy course"

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

7. Learn to walk before you even think about running.

Max - think how fucked you'd have been if your big accident had happened in the backcountry.

Correct answer to your friends question would have been "I/we are not qualified or experienced enough to be even thinking about this stuff and should be concentrating on learning the basics from our avy course"

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Seriously...your cart is way in front of your horse.

I will agree with that...

I'm just curious about the hypotheticals now because I'm realizing how situational avy stuff is. But you guys are right: I will focus more on the basic stuff.

Thanks for the discussion though, for sure.

There are two basic responses to avy courses/study.
1) THe wise man takes info learned and becomes more cautious in the BC as a result.

2) The fool takes his newly learned knowledge as a license to push the envelope in the BC.

Would you rather be the wise man or the fool?

Not necessarily a hypothetical situation, Max:

http://members.aol.com/snodawg/Roman/Roman.htm

As for your initial hypothetical scenario, a friend of mine was faced with a similar dilemma, (though not exactly the same). After trying several options, he was forced to go back the way he'd ascended to get to his partner, who fortunately hadn't been buried and had only minor injuries.

Just a footnote, but I would say that the majority of people on not fully prepared for a BC rescue.

A couple of years ago a buddy blew out his knee on the third pitch of difficult.
It took four strong BC skiers three hours to get him down the luge to the road.
It would normally take 10-15 minutes to ski this same area.

apd, i dig the hypothetical scenarios. I think they train you to make good decisions when something goes wrong, bc or otherwise. I also agree that there may not be a right or wrong way for that scenario, which is close to being worse case. We should start a new thread in here and come up with different situations and work them out.

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Originally Posted by flykdog

apd, i dig the hypothetical scenarios. I think they train you to make good decisions when something goes wrong, bc or otherwise. I also agree that there may not be a right or wrong way for that scenario, which is close to being worse case. We should start a new thread in here and come up with different situations and work them out.

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As a current BC JONG, I would LOVE that.

flyk, i'd be down for that too. you patrollers are a weath of knowledge on ski injuries, diagnosis and how to treat them. the cool thing about having so many people participate is that eveyone paints a different picture in their head and can add a new dimension to the scenario. it'd be interesting to just let it run and see where it goes. i'm sure lots of strange problems and solutions could come out.

that would be a good exercise flykdog.