If you’re going to dig a pit on an exposed slope and you want to rope-up for safety, do you need to bring a harness or is there another way to attach the rope to yourself without one (safely)?
Thanks in advance. :yourock:
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If you’re going to dig a pit on an exposed slope and you want to rope-up for safety, do you need to bring a harness or is there another way to attach the rope to yourself without one (safely)?
Thanks in advance. :yourock:
I carry nylon webbing in my pack. If you have about 12 feet and know how to tie a water knot then you can make a harness in about 30 seconds.
That being said, you're not likely to need it for anything other than a quick hold if the slope rips, you could just tie it around your waist.
Thanks flyk!
The webbing is probably the way to go. I hadn’t even thought of that.
I’ve made a harness out of webbing for my son, its quick and easy (and cheap).
Tying just the rope around my waist makes me a little nervous.
Thanks again. :yourock:
For exposed pits and cornice stomping I use a simple bowline knot around the waist with a fisherman's knot backup on a 7mm static rope. Takes 10 seconds and its bomber. This works well when you are being belayed by a partner. Your partner can often just hip belay from a secure position (trees, behind rocks, from ski anchors, etc.). Avalanche pros with more experience may use different methods. Talk to ski patrollers at a resort that has a serious avalanche-control program and they may be able to share some good and hard-earned wisdom.
When tromping around and digging pits solo I use a sling, like Flykdog, for a harness and rappel out with an ATC and a locking carabiner. With knots tied in the rope to prevent taking a ride if a slope slid, I have used this method to rationalize playing on the tops of suspect slopes.
Caution: A rope would likely save you at the top of a slope but I would caution against dabbling with midslope pits thinking a rope will save you. Same goes for significantly corniced paths. You probably wouldn't do that, but I thought I'd add that for the backcountry newbies.
thanks dave,
helpful stuff! :cool:
The safest option is the webbing quicky harness that Flyk speaks of. But I frequently do the bowline rope rap. Only drawback is the possibility of the wrap ending up around your ribs if something did break.
Makes you wonder what would happen if this slope broke? In this particular case, a rope could save your life because of the cliffs below. But I wonder what kind of forces a slab would exert on the person digging this pit? I'd rather take my chances with the rope, than without.
http://fritzrips.com/Gallery/albums/...wall.sized.jpg
Any trip I suspect using a rope and belay sytem to dig a pit, I bring a harness. It only weighs an extra couple of pounds, doesn't take up much room, and will save your ribs and internal organs if a slope does go. I would much rather carry up the extra weight than have to come down with broken ribs or a collapsed lung. This is why the whole ultra light ski touring pisses me off. People start skimping on shit and end up putting themselves in more danger than before. Just my opinion, so please don't take it personal.:)
The skier in the photo above has a real harness on.Quote:
Originally Posted by iskibc
It's also very easy to tie a harness with 'leg loops' out of 7mm cord. And Flyk's harness out of webbing is equally as effective. More than one way to skin a cat.
I'm not taking it personal, well sort of.;) But as a matter of civilized discussion, what pisses you off about light weight touring? What exactly are people 'skimping' on?
I still carry a gallon of water. Yes, a gallon. I carry a beacon, headlamp, shovel, probe, puffy coat, extra food, cell phone, psuedo bivi sack.
Not taking any jabs at you TH. I just see too many people out there in the backcountry more worried about shaving off several ounces from their packs or gear than their own safety. Take a metal avy shovel for instance. Most weigh more than the lexan shovels, but in my experiences and from what I've gathered from others in the field, those lexan shovels are worthless pieces of shit when it comes to digging someone out from a hard slab slide. Lexan doesn't have the same properties as metal does. People are skimping on the amount of food and water they take into the backcountry. The lightweight craze has some people overlooking safety and thinking more about moving up mountains faster and carrying less weight in their backpacks. It's the mentality that will get them in the end, not the gear. Some of my college students in the program I work for have fallen victim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackhead
I'm with iskibc here -- those lexan shovels are crap when dealing with real avy debris. It seems that more often than not I am the only one with a metal-blade shovel...and that's distressing.
That said, I am a fan of "light-is-right" -- but I think the key issue is knowing what to go light on. I think it's a corollary to "speed=safety". For both, there is a continuum; the "right" answer does not lie at either end, but most likely it is somewhere in the middle and weighted on one side or the other depending on the circumstance.
Going light and expecting on others to risk their lives to rescue you is not "right" in my opinion. Going light and still being self-sufficient is.
By the way... iskibc -- how do you like the Iggy's? Sometimes I miss 'em! :)
-e
A rope is only going to so much. There are plenty of stories about ski cutting on "belay" and being taken for a ride.
If you have a bunch of clients coming in, sure, you might dig a pit with protection before hand. But generally, to go on belay to dig a pit ................well, that says a lot.
It says terrain consequences are red light and you'd like to evaluate snowpack to determine if it's green light giving you the window of opportunity you need to ski the slope? E.g. that photo of Trackhead's is _amazing_. I'm drooling looking at the slope below the digger, and indeed the whole bowl. It's obviously red light terrain - a deadly trap if any aspect went. But maybe it's the one opportunity all season to ski it. If all tests came back green, I'd be sorely tempted to drop in. Of course I'd feel better digging several pits all around the bowl to see what the other aspects are like first.Quote:
Originally Posted by 粉末雪
Thanks for the photo, Trackhead. Location?
I've used a rope for pit digging in the past but no longer do so or even carry a rope.
I find that, as has been mentioned, skiing lower angled slopes of similar aspect and elevation and using the up track for evaluating the snow pack by digging several pits in representative spots, provides more than enough information without going on belay.
I would wear a harness or make one out of webbing if doing belayed pit digging.
I've belayed a partner off a bowline with a skinny rope thinking if the slope actually slid, his potential for injury from the rope was at least as great as the potential of riding the slide.
Last year I posed the question of what kind of forces would be applied to a skier if a slope fractured say 2-3ft deep while digging a pit. It seems if you were down in the pit, the slab could potentially come over you and either rip out your anchor/belayer, or worse, shred you as the huge weight of the slab raked over your body.Quote:
Originally Posted by wra
I guess the variable of how far down the slope you are, how big it goes, and weather you find yourself above or below the slab is what will matter in the end.
http://www.telemarktips.com/Photopos...0/IMGP0403.JPG
I just used some webbing tied to a bowline around my waist and anchored to a large rock to dig this pit on a slope which, although hard to tell, drop about 47 degrees right below me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackhead
the question originally popped up when gramps and i were ski cutting main chute last oct 21st when the snowpack was heavy and fresh. i don't think i'd be so earger to get in a pit on a start zone with deep slab instabilities. even if the anchor held there's still too much force if you're already "in" the slab.
Its now sadly a functional "lost art" but in the days of yore folks actually climbed simply tied in and the way to do it so as to more comfortably distribute the wieght is by triple/quadruple wrapping the rope around your waist and THEN tieing the bowline with the rabbit hole up under the wraps but the belay line out (sorry, I'm not explaining it well and promise to show anyone who asks in person)
also a simple figure 8 webbing loop for rapping can be easily associated with the waist wrap if you're really paranoid about things.
you beat me to it LB
when tying in on a rope directly, you wrap three times first, then tie the bowline through a bite in the rope
also useful, the butterfly mid rope tie in
OK, but what about the anchor? Are you setting up a deadman? Belaying of a tree/rock horn? I gotta get better with this ropes shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
whatever's available that looks best. all three if need be.
Figuring it out exactly would be a pain, but based on the Avalanche Handbook and my maybe bad algebraQuote:
Originally Posted by Trackhead
Impact Force is proportional to your surface area * density of avalanche (in this case say slab density) * vertical distance down the slope
acmeclimbing has a "good" deal on a two pack of those beal ropes: http://acmeclimbing.com/index.asp?Pa...ROD&ProdID=120 two together lets you do some decent sized raps as well.
On impact forces: I'd venture to say that they should be relatively minor as you should theoretically be in the starting zone (ain't nothin gonna save your ass if you're down in the bottom of a terrain trap and get blasted by a full run) before things get really moving. Regardless, I do think that people should relatively "up anchor" from what you might otherwise do in a typical mountaineering situation.
CTarmchair: IMO a dynamic would be better all-around BC rope if only because you might use it for some dynamic situations...that said...(really lost arting now) dynamics really shine when you're talking falls loaded over a piece of gear (lead-fall) which wouldn't generally happen skiing and as long as you're body belaying you can "give" a little.
Foggy, I think you need to cut the twins off your gotamas ;)
why are you even doing snow profiles on exposed slopes that could avalanche? you should be able to dig your pit on a similar aspect and elevation in a safe location and extrapolate the information for the slope you want to ski/ride. That's how the pros do it. But if you feel that you must, i would go with iskibc's advice and use a harness for the very reasons he cited.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nesta
in theory that's how it should be done. on the other hand, if you are coming into a new area that you are unfamiliar with its history, you can't be assured uniformity in the distribution of some weak layers, such as surface hoar. knowing the layering before the next snowfall gives you most of the info you need. if you think the slope is highly suspect, then you've probably already subconsiously made the decision not to ski it and therefore no longer need to assess it.
It's all about spatial variability nowadays.
Digging pits in safe, representative slopes is not always possible.
And...
Nothing will give you more information about the slope you want to ski than the slope you want to ski.
I am fully aware that spatial variability is a huge issue
and...
for that very reason, digging one pit in an exposed location isn't going to tell you everything about that slope necessarily. I can accept some of the other points you guys have mentioned.
On our tour today, the rope was a nice thing to have.
See TR here.