Dropping in on top of Groups/Booting up behind another group

Reading CAIC reports today and what I saw in person this weekend was pretty wild out there even for summit county standards.

I thought this was basic backcountry etiquette if someone is already booting in the line you wanted to ski you pivot to a new objective or go home??

I know these are all super popular zones but still something needs to change or there will be a large scale accident on one of the classics.


Example: https://avalanche.state.co.us/observ...c-0b0dce6a1e21 (How many people are in that one picture)

Example: Quandary North Couloir 4/21 A group got dropped in on by another party knowingly cut a wind slab an flushed a different groups member down 1,000 ft.


I watched three separate groups all attempting shit for brains at the same time on Friday? one nearing the top another group in the choke and another group just starting to boot!

Reckless behavior? Is terrain avoidance the only thing being taught in AVY 1?

Resource scarcity, ignorance and selfishness




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I count between 20 and 17.


Not schmart.

I don't disagree with you but if that is your expectation don't ski trade routes in Colorado on the first fresh snow forecast low hazard nice ish weather spring day.

Reality is many to most backcountry skiers around here pretty much suck at backcountry skiing (and skiing generally for that matter.)

I DPd BP Saturday AM as I saw it coming. By the time I left at 9 the shit show was on!

The Green Means Go mentality was on full display this weekend and in both my opinion and supported by the obs, people got caught with their pants don't.

I'll let others speak to the AAIRE curriculum but avalanche education is to comprehensive backcountry safety or ettiquite.

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https://avalanche.state.co.us/observ...d-d12ac979fbf4

Quandary Report. Seems pretty selfish to me if you didn't like how they were skiing it or taking too long you should have gotten up earlier.

triggering an avalanche that takes someone for a ride, and just skiing away? no attempt to assist in the rescue?




this is a different level. them snowboarders what set off that slide a few years back were prosecuted for much less…

That's pretty fucked up to ski away.

You have to also wonder about this by the first group though

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"Assesed conditions"

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Sounds like they were fairly lucky to have not set it off themselves even if skiing it one at a time.

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Originally Posted by gmorgg

https://avalanche.state.co.us/observ...d-d12ac979fbf4

Quandary Report. Seems pretty selfish to me if you didn't like how they were skiing it or taking too long you should have gotten up earlier.

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As described that's messed up.

Seems pretty normal from my observations of people in the backcountry


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Wow. That's cold.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

As described that's messed up.

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I can only guess we’ll hear more about it from other parties

Gatekeeping, localism, and trailhead beat-downs all need to come back into fashion.

I almost died twenty years ago
Sketch wind loading. We were survival descending (should have hiked back up)
Dude dropped in to the bowl (we descended the ridge one at a time)
Ripped half the bowl. Two thirds of the group got blasted by the staunch wall air blast and lightly buried. As we were collecting lost poles a three party dropped into the undslid bowl and we booked as fast as we could to get out of the zone.

Long story short. Don’t trust anyone above you

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

I can only guess we’ll hear more about it from other parties

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Why do you think that? I'd think they'd hightail their flatbrims, wildcats and mustaches back to the Tacoma and keep it too themselves.

Something is fucked, but don't be so quick to just make shit up and bring the pitchforks. And before you ask, no it wasn't me or anyone I know. So I'll just ask these questions generically. Here is the forecast for the day https://avalanche.state.co.us/?lat=3...ate=2024-04-21

Under what conditions is it acceptable to expose more than one person to the hazard?

How do you break a line into multiple pitches?

When is it good form to allow faster moving groups to play through?

Does a novice junkshow that gets up early have to right to cockblock the line all morning as the temp warms up and the hazard level increases?

Maybe the offending party were total asshats, came down saw homie was breathing, sprayed him and peaced out.

Maybe group one was taking an exorbitant amount of time, looked to be eddied out in an island of safety, group 2 dropped and then a slow moving sluff knocked somebody of their feet?

We all have an obligation to not be an asshole? Part of that, when skiing in busy avalanche terrain, is to have your shit together and move swifty and predictably through terrain.

Personally, I avoid these type of scenes because I don't have any faith in the skills and being on the same wavelength in the punters. Thankfully the backcounty is a big place and seeing nobody all day is pretty easy.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

Why do you think that? I'd think they'd hightail their flatbrims, wildcats and mustaches back to the Tacoma and keep it too themselves.

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Multiple parties at the event - only one perspective given. Nothing more than that.

Not pretending to attribute blame or judge from my faraway uninformed position. I wouldn’t know about whose mustache did what.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

Why do you think that? I'd think they'd hightail their flatbrims, wildcats and mustaches back to the Tacoma and keep it too themselves.

Something is fucked, but don't be so quick to just make shit up and bring the pitchforks. And before you ask, no it wasn't me or anyone I know. So I'll just ask these questions generically. Here is the forecast for the day https://avalanche.state.co.us/?lat=3...ate=2024-04-21

Under what conditions is it acceptable to expose more than one person to the hazard?

How do you break a line into multiple pitches?

When is it good form to allow faster moving groups to play through?

Does a novice junkshow that gets up early have to right to cockblock the line all morning as the temp warms up and the hazard level increases?

Maybe the offending party were total asshats, came down saw homie was breathing, sprayed him and peaced out.

Maybe group one was taking an exorbitant amount of time, looked to be eddied out in an island of safety, group 2 dropped and then a slow moving sluff knocked somebody of their feet?

We all have an obligation to not be an asshole? Part of that, when skiing in busy avalanche terrain, is to have your shit together and move swifty and predictably through terrain.

Personally, I avoid these type of scenes because I don't have any faith in the skills and being on the same wavelength in the punters. Thankfully the backcounty is a big place and seeing nobody all day is pretty easy.

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If I see too many cars at a TH I’ll usually go elsewhere. If I see a well used skin track I’ll go the other direction. It’s the unknown ability and behavior of random people in the backcountry that I try and avoid.

I certainly wouldn’t drop in on someone moving slowly down a line with potential for some sort of snow movement. I’m not sure about anyone else though. It should be a given if someone has any sort of avalanche awareness.


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I certainly wouldn’t drop in on someone moving slowly down a line with potential for some sort of snow movement. I’m not sure about anyone else though. It should be a given if someone has any sort of avalanche awareness.

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My experience is that behavior expectation is far for universal in Cham, La Grave, Colorado 14rs, Wasatch Couloirs, JH sidecountry and so on.

To me, its less about right and wrong on more about understanding that other people are part of the risk profile we need to manage.

Dramarado. Never a dull moment.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

My experience is that behavior expectation is far for universal in Cham, La Grave, Colorado 14rs, Wasatch Couloirs, JH sidecountry and so on.

To me, its less about right and wrong on more about understanding that other people are part of the risk profile we need to manage.

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For me it’s not about my desire to get down the line but about not killing another person.

I’m sure it’s common practice in some places. I try and avoid others because managing my risk is hard enough


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There will be different opinions on this, but I think we all agree that sluffing (or certainly flushing) a person or group and not stopping to help, check in, etc is just wrong. Period. Full stop.
In terms of "dropping in" on people, its tough in CO and other popular/high population areas (yes wasatch, tetons, etc). I think if you follow another group up, you have to expect you'll get dropped on - and therefore you have to be very comfortable on the conditions (ideally, post-consolidation). These can be long vert lines (2-3k' on popular 13-14er lines like Quandry, Torreys emperor) where there could be multiple groups in front or behind the group you see... and probably some you can't see. Standing on the top of these lines, there's often a few groups coming up (some visible, some not) that could be an hour+ from topping out. I'll wait for a group near the top, and will ski a safe distance from climbers, but I'm not waiting 1, 2, 3 hours for the last person up. Wet slide risk is likely rising as you wait.
Other etiquette issues come up too... like putting in a 2k' bootpack and then a group passing you in the last few hundred feet, transitioning fast and dropping in. Generally kinda bogus.
I've found radios super helpful to make sure skiers are through a line, or to a safe zone. Getting down is usually pretty quick, so one-at-a-time is safe, smart and easy - as long as you can see the exit and/or have some comms.
But mostly 1) wait for solid spring consolidation, 2) know you're taking some risk if you're following others up and 3) always help a brother/sister out in any situation.

Bottom up booters have different protocols for sure.

Radios are awesome comms tools but bring another required skill set. People that struggle with their beacons, bindings and skins don't have the bandwidth to manage a radio generally. I'm not sure we've talked about this https://legaladdictions-photography....front-range-v1

As mentioned, I think this last storm produced slide activity that neither the forecasters nor many skiers were expecting although by lunch time Saturday it was pretty evident.

The hypothetical is an experienced courteous users group.

Reality is more like driving a car. You job is to avoid an accident regardless of who has the right of way.

Blame is a limiting concept. It may allow you to gain the moral high ground but that's about it. If group one had either moved swiftly through the exposure or regrouped at an island of safety once that noticed the first skier of group two was on the slope, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

To me, its less about right and wrong on more about understanding that other people are part of the risk profile we need to manage.

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These are wise words from someone who's spent a lot of time in the backcountry. Thanks for that

In Avalanche 1, I certainly discuss courtesy, ettiquette, and protocol in managing multiple groups in my class including giving examples of accidents and lawsuits. I encourage people to be proactively communicative and courteous, that a radio is a must-have device, and avoiding crowds is key.

Collaborative skiing is a tough thing on trade routes.

This is the most obvious use case for Radio Community Channels:
https://rockytalkie.com/pages/communitychannels

That way you can raise a group on the radio that you didn't talk to face-to-face first. Unfortunately, I don't think this is widespread, nor that radio carraige is ubiquitous, nor that the most problematic groups are likely to have them and use the community channels.

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Originally Posted by gmorgg

https://avalanche.state.co.us/observ...d-d12ac979fbf4

Quandary Report. Seems pretty selfish to me if you didn't like how they were skiing it or taking too long you should have gotten up earlier.

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The rumor is this avalanche incident involving two groups lead to an altercation at the trailhead when Group 1 caught up to Group 2.

^^^ Yes, community channels are great. Would be great to add RMNP, Indian Peaks and Elks. But yes, also need 1) more people to carry them and 2) to know/use the comm channels. San Juans are well covered

5 yrs ago I was on a guided trip at Sunrise hut/ GAH, the party at the next hut up the valley was poaching the Sunrise area and then sent shit down from above, the guide and the assistant get on the radio and asked wtf? The assistant said yeah I can tell from coms that group is unguided Americans, GAH head office got on the line and told then you fuck up one more time and yer out

A month later somebody was whining about it here on TGR and I recognised the incident, called em on it and never hear another word

Until GMRS radios enable dual frequency monitoring and a coordinated education/outreach campaign is organized, community radio frequencies will be of limited benefit.

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While it's not always feasible, I always try and have conversations at trailheads and on skin tracks with other groups - what are your plans for the day? Approaching bottom up or top down? Here's my radio channel if you want to get in touch. Tends to avoid a lot of headache.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

To me, its less about right and wrong on more about understanding that other people are part of the risk profile we need to manage.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

Reality is more like driving a car. You job is to avoid an accident regardless of who has the right of way.

Blame is a limiting concept. It may allow you to gain the moral high ground but that's about it. If group one had either moved swiftly through the exposure or regrouped at an island of safety once that noticed the first skier of group two was on the slope, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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These are both quality posts.

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Originally Posted by SKIP IN7RO

Gatekeeping, localism, and trailhead beat-downs all need to come back into fashion.

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Bring back 80's surf culture

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

5 yrs ago I was on a guided trip at Sunrise hut/ GAH, the party at the next hut up the valley was poaching the Sunrise area and then sent shit down from above, the guide and the assistant get on the radio and asked wtf? The assistant said yeah I can tell from coms that group is unguided Americans, GAH head office got on the line and told then you fuck up one more time and yer out

A month later somebody was whining about it here on TGR and I recognised the incident, called em on it and never hear another word

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Nice flex. I didn't feel the need to get into it at the time but I'll bite. Apologies in advance for threadrift.

Here's the thread: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...-etiquette-etc

My "whining", and your "callout" included.

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Originally Posted by North

What are people's thoughts on terrain etiquette for areas with multiple adjacent huts?

On my last trip my group got slapped on the wrist and then threatened with removal from the hut for skiing in adjacent drainages.

In our case, at the start of our trip it had been about 10
days since the last snowfall. We had a fit and ambitious group that was interested and capable of big days and poking around for leftovers.

One of our neighboring huts didn't seem to mind sharing ridges and areas at the edges of "their" zone. Our other neighbor was a guided party and after watching the guide take his party down boilerplate solar aspects on day 1, we found out he complained to the operator about us skiing the shaded aspects at the edge of "their" zone that same day.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

I wonder if that was the GAH trip last january/ Feb ?

. We got there and sleds were poaching the area around the hut so the assistant went out and said " hey man we are trying to run a hut trip here could you please respect that ? " So they left but he got pictures of everyone.

Then the party up the drainage poached the area twice, on the 3rd time they kicked off a size 3 with a big crown to ground which dropped 700 meters into our tenure ( a truly impressive aviy ! ) we were in that drainage looking for pow, fortunately we were not under it at the time.

That was the last straw for the lead guide who wasn't expecting and seemed to think incoming from above was dangerous so he got on the horn, the assistant commented the other party sounded American from how they talk about what they were doing.

So even if it wasn't you that is what tenure poaching looks like to the poachee who is trying to run a guiding business

I think there was an abscessed tooth in that other hut so they were on the horn for medical help ( we had 2 doctors and a pharmacist ) and after much discussion amongst the pro's about what can happen
I seem to remember they recommended buddy evac and eventually I believe he did

IME there is at least 1 md on every hut trip and usually at least one Deadhead

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Our group was indeed (gasp) "unguided Americans." If it matters, the group included 4 professional guides, and 1 professional avalanche forecaster.

Members of my party (not me) skied northerlys on the edge of "your" tenure on day 1. We were then contacted by GAH who told us we could not ski outside of our "hut tenure." This was the first time we'd heard of hut tenure and the invisible boundary between the huts.

Later in the trip, members of my party (not me) triggered a D3(!?) from an alpine ridge that separates the two huts. I was told there was no intention to drop to the Sunrise side, and that the slide was triggered when one of them stepped off the ridge to take a leak. Maybe that was a BS cya story, but I believed them given that in my recollection the Sunrise side was a solar aspect (those were skiing poorly) and the Meadow side was more northerly.

A member of my party did develop an abscessed tooth. He asked for medical advice over the radio, looked at the price of the heli evac, and toured out to the road solo.

GAH did threaten to fly in the RCMP and remove us from the hut (!) if we continued to ski outside of "our tenure". We continued to ski well outside of "our tenure," but stopped visiting the edge of the Sunrise zone, given the active guard (guide).

You call it "poaching," I call it backcountry skiing. The GAH trip was the first and only time I've encountered this scenario. I could understand your guide's annoyance if we were skiing out your front door. We felt the edges were in play, and based on our interactions with other adjacent groups (or lack thereof), the conflict with your group seemed to be an outlier.

I believe the traditional way to settle this is with a ski off. I'm in America, but will travel to compete. If we compete in your country, you'll have to let me know which slopes are approved for backcountry skiing.

a 5 year old grudge match skioff? subscribed!


fact.

Canadian huts in the tenure system do not work like the huts on USFS land in the US.

Unguided groups not knowing the rules, not following rules, or being perceived to take too high of risks make it harder and harder to get an unguided booking in Canada, which is frustrating for other unguided groups who really really really don't want to have to be guided.

Of course, that problem set has very little to do with the main topic of this thread.

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Originally Posted by SKIP IN7RO

Gatekeeping, localism, and trailhead beat-downs all need to come back into fashion.

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YES. and the lines around a basin could be regulated by the "dick eaters". Wearing matching Outfits like in hawaii at Pipeline

Huh...I sure do my best to never drop in on anyone. Even in ski areas like Engelberg. It is hard on the Laub sometimes.


If someone is far ahead I don't go to the same objective. If someone dropped in on me after I dropped in first and was visible, I'd teach them some manners.
If people crawled up after me I'd grudgeingly wait another hour at the top, hopefully in the sun. Without wind. [emoji3]


More interesting in Europe is: many people on the same slope. Avoidable while touring( if you're not skiing the boring Standard Autobahn routes).

Not so much if you're first in the Rotair tram [emoji3]

@North thread drift is one of the few thinks we've got left

Canada...where they do most thinks better including the extremes of calling the cops on BC skiers and Totally Fuckin' Cowboy. Us Americans really need to step it up in the latter and minimize the former.

...and Scandos in Engleburg is also a worthy topic.

Sent from a 6 m/s face melting thermal

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Originally Posted by North

Nice flex. I didn't feel the need to get into it at the time but I'll bite. Apologies in advance for threadrift.

Here's the thread: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...-etiquette-etc

My "whining", and your "callout" included.





Our group was indeed (gasp) "unguided Americans." If it matters, the group included 4 professional guides, and 1 professional avalanche forecaster.

Members of my party (not me) skied northerlys on the edge of "your" tenure on day 1. We were then contacted by GAH who told us we could not ski outside of our "hut tenure." This was the first time we'd heard of hut tenure and the invisible boundary between the huts.

Later in the trip, members of my party (not me) triggered a D3(!?) from an alpine ridge that separates the two huts. I was told there was no intention to drop to the Sunrise side, and that the slide was triggered when one of them stepped off the ridge to take a leak. Maybe that was a BS cya story, but I believed them given that in my recollection the Sunrise side was a solar aspect (those were skiing poorly) and the Meadow side was more northerly.

A member of my party did develop an abscessed tooth. He asked for medical advice over the radio, looked at the price of the heli evac, and toured out to the road solo.

GAH did threaten to fly in the RCMP and remove us from the hut (!) if we continued to ski outside of "our tenure". We continued to ski well outside of "our tenure," but stopped visiting the edge of the Sunrise zone, given the active guard (guide).

You call it "poaching," I call it backcountry skiing. The GAH trip was the first and only time I've encountered this scenario. I could understand your guide's annoyance if we were skiing out your front door. We felt the edges were in play, and based on our interactions with other adjacent groups (or lack thereof), the conflict with your group seemed to be an outlier.

I believe the traditional way to settle this is with a ski off. I'm in America, but will travel to compete. If we compete in your country, you'll have to let me know which slopes are approved for backcountry skiing.

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This is not thread drift cuz this is totally skiing/ being above another group in addition to being where you were told not to be

The guide and his assistant are pro's who run trips into GAH all the time and they were really good, they booked the hut, they paid the bill and they were calling the shots, for some reason it seemed relevant to the assistant who said " those are unguided americans " which is probaly neither here nor there but one would think if you had that many " pros " you would know better

You can't say you didnt know cuz this was not the middle of nowhere, you booked a hut in the GAH tenure a valley which will have 60+ skiers stacked up in it all winter long and you knew this cuz changover was a gong show, there are 4 huts with 4 areas stacked on top of one another, the maps have clear lines of the 4 area's attached to the 4 huts so you were told once not to ski outside your area and then you go outside your area a 2nd time and kick off a big slide , not only were you skiing above another party you were not suposed to be there and were told not to go there

there was no intention to ski the sunrise side cuz it was impossible due to the the big fucking sheer cliff
I was in the bottom of that valley when they kicked off the top and it was more than someone taking a pee over the edge, we could see a boot pack around the peak, the guide said they must have went around the peak where they were not suposed to be in hopes of a better line for the ski down and kicked it off

Your " back country skiing " had the guides pissed at you and GAH pissed at you enough to threaten bringing in the federales which is pretty serious shit as BC huts in BC goes

So we doing the ski off, or what?

Will all the brofessional guides from both parties be participating as well?

well include the hut keeper who was big guy and the cook who was a hot weightlifting gal I duno if they stand a chance, in any case they certianly didnt look very good or sound real smart on the radio, the duh factor was heavy

I feel Unguided American is redundant . I'll wear that badge with pride.

Can you please call them Mounties, it fits the vibe better

Tomorrow in the anniversary of the only actually TGR winner takes all ski off ever at Corn Harvest

well they are Canada's federal police so they all go thru the 26 week paramilitary training in Regina, i could just see them marching off the chopper wearing the red serge to kick North out of the GAH tenure for tresspassing and kicking off an aviy from overhead which was kind of cool but only cuz i wasn't under it