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Was about to link that.
3 years in jail? WTF?
Interesting, I wonder what the intent of the article is. Just a human interest piece? It’s certainly not aimed at this audience
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My understanding is that in Europe avalanche deaths are considered acts of man rather than acts of god. I've read about skiers being prosecuted for setting off avys that hit other people. If such an event happened in the US--an avy death on a school outing there would be liability but probably not a criminal case. The article mentioned they don't have punitve damages in Switzerland. Maybe the criminal liability is in lieu of that.
I don't really see any evidence of negligence. Backcountry skiing is risky, and Emily and her parents willingly took on that risk when they signed her up for that school. Sad story though. She sounds like a really cool young woman. RIP
ripped in half by an avalanche… jesus.
I know someone that was killed in an avalanche, he had his leg torn off at the hip joint and eviscerated through the wound
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I know, right? That's brutal. Can't imagine how that must compound a parent's grief. I really feel for those people, even though I don't want to see the trip leaders blamed. I mean they've been leading successful bc trips with this school for decades without serious incident. Is it really a crime to make an error in judgment on which slope to ski, on one trip after all those years? Seems like a weird way to look at it. Curious to see how it turns out.Quote:
Originally Posted by m2711c
Even though some of the technical aspects and nomenclature were a bit off, as a father of an only-child teenage daughter, that article's intent seemed to be aimed straight at my gut.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
(I also happened to start reading it immediately before taking our aforementioned only-child teenage daughter to her hip hop dance class. On the drive there, she started complaining about the temperature in the 40s F then praised Savannah where a friend of hers lives. Instead of responding with advocacy for outdoor activities in the backcountry amidst cold weather climates, I shrugged and thought to myself, just as well I suppose.)
In the U.S., no, not a crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahman
But grounds for a big civil lawsuit.
According to the article though, over there it's exactly the other way around.
Her parents were avid backcountry skiers according to the article, her father was a ski patroller and trauma doc. That something like this happened shouldn’t be surprising, sure it’s terrible and I can’t imagine one of my daughters dying this way but there seems to be some cognitive dissonance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan S.
Emily was an adult legally and responsible for her decisions. It’s a horrible tragedy and I really don’t see a need to place blame. That’s why I wondered what the intent was? Foment outrage, sensationalize the death of an American? I don’t know.
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Another reminder that the mountains want to eat you. RIP
Nobody in the media didn't notice all the attention the NYT got for "Snowfall." This wasn't that or anything even close to it, but I think they saw a tragic avalanche story with a human angle and thought it was worthy of the general public's attention.
What a tragedy
I'll play Devil's advocate here:Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahman
It was a major mistake for IFMGA-certified guides to put students on a 40-degree slope above fatal exposure. Backcountry skiing is inherently risky, but this was an avoidable risk, especially for professionals.
I can't speak to whether that mistake justifies the guides potentially spending three years in prison. But, it was certainly a major mistake and it doesn't seem completely out of line for the Swiss legal system to potentially consider it criminal negligence.
I could see that, although they did ski the same slope above the exposure prior just didn’t hit the trigger. Personally I don’t think I would be comfortable skiing above that exposure, any avalanche or fall would be fatal. Too fine a line. In the end, the students agreed when asked to ski it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
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I wonder if any of them had concerns that they never spoke up about. Sounds like a textbook example of the Expert Halo.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
That does seem like a questionable call, but to me it seems this Wellhorn climb was their last bc tour of the year and they were probably pushing the envelope a bit in more advanced terrain. I also think a factor not mentioned could have been that Emily herself was unable to complete the ascent and ski the first run. When deciding whether to make another run, how much did they factor in her likely desire to participate after her knee was feeling better? If not for the fact that she didn't ski the first run--and she by all accounts was a very popular and well-liked member of the group--they may not have had any real motivation to ski another run. But as to why they skied a different part of the face on the second run, that is probably where the error in judgment occurred. I'm not sure how much being above exposure factors into it. You wouldn't want to get caught in a slide regardless.
That's the 2nd incident I've heard of recently involving trauma that was previously unimaginable to me. Blunt force...yep got it makes sense. For whatever reason, getting ripped apart was not something I had conceptualized as an outcome until very recently. Awful. Message received.
See my post above. Changed my perspective about avalanche trauma and most of the people in our small community of backcountry skiers.Quote:
Originally Posted by North
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Not bagging on anyone, OK?Quote:
Originally Posted by North
Most people think getting caught in a slide means getting entrained in a bunch of fluffy snow and maybe getting buried until your group does a well executed beacon search and then digs you out, blue but alive.
The statistics tell a different story. What really opened my eyes was the Bay Street accident and a presentation by the investigator who talked some about finding one of the victims in more than one piece.
The forces in a big slide just don't register with a lot of people. This was a pretty big slide and a 600' cliff.
Exposure should be a huge factor in BC decision making. Overall avalanche risk = likelihood of a slide x consequenses of a slide. While you never want to get caught in a slide, setting off a small windslab could be considered a low risk hazard if you're skiing a long planar slope with no terrain traps--a full burial is extremely unlikely and at worst you might lose a ski and have a shitty slog back to the car. That same slide above exposure is certain death.Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahman
Big slides can snap whole stands of mature trees like toothpicks. It's amazing that meatbags like us survive as often as we do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
^^^ That is the crazy thing. Saw the aftermath of a guy that triggered a 80' x 4' deep hard slab in a tight, rocky, early season chute that narrowed way down to mabye 15' wide, he and his dog must have been going 60 mph when they came out the bottom and then way across a cat road. Big boulders everywhere cause it was late October.
He and the dog were totally fine.
There are enough of those kind of stories that it gives us mortals a thread to cling to.
My reading comprehension sucks but I didn't see anything in the article about a pit getting dug, just a mention of the group leader pushing a ski pole into the snow
Yeah because you don't dig pits in Europe. That's what the slf does for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by skuff
The problem here is the typical lower risk high consequence deep pwl layer thing. And guides should act accordingly. That's why there is an investigation.
So no cliffs below, ski one by one and so on.
The 40 degree thing per se is not a problem in avie danger 2. You can get munter reduction down to below 1 in that scenario.
It's really interesting that everybody focuses on the stomping and the Pole. We do that but it's not what people usually base decisions on. It's if that feels weird / or more dangerous we don't go. You wouldn't make a go decision on that. you normally do that with the Reduction method. Guides tend to push it a bit if the avie level feels onnthe safe side, which it should never be with a pwl. New snow, surface slabs...sure you can see and navigate that.
So basically the guide made two mistakes. Terrain Management/ Tour planning and 4 people on slope.
Edit: the Tour planning is actually ok in avie 2, just not with a pwl.
Edit: the Standard wellhorn approach is flat but exposed. The peak is very serious alpinism. So the pic indicates they wanted to ski a rather boring but dangerous approach below the North face.
Strange Tour planning. And you can't really ski it from the top so I don't know why they actually Toured there?
Hiking in LeConte Canyon on the Muir Trail in the Sierra in June one year. The slope opposite us had slid during the winter--2000 vertical ft, hundreds of yards across, a forest of mature timber completely leveled, top to bottom, wall to wall. On our side we were scrambling over 3-4 ft diameter trees stacked 3-4 trees high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
In the Revelstoke avalanche that killed 6 some years ago sticking a pole in the snow was the guide's method of risk assessment. Which did not even include reading the local forecast.Quote:
Originally Posted by skuff
The thing that struck me--and I likely know less about slides than anyone else reading this--was skiing 30 seconds apart rather than one at a time to a safe zone. When more than one is caught isn't that pretty much always a mistake?
^ re multiple burials, I recently listened to this while skinning (just closed ski areas) and driving about:
https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Darke...ook/B0CGK2XLN1
As a book, I found it somewhere between mediocre and dreadful, more towards the latter if you don't care at all about so-called "pro" snowboarders.
Once the narrative switched to the SME multi, it became far more compelling.
That information might have been based almost entirely on Ken Wylie's book, but since that book sounds even worse, a retelling of his account might be better than the original source material.
So, a limited endorsement: if you're interested in how such a scenario could unfold, with two fully certified professional guides (i.e., not just bro guides), then definitely read (or listen) to this.
A good friend of ours died in the La Traviata slide. So did 5 other people besides Kelly and our friend.
If you live at Donner Lake you have the late Kathy Poluch Kessler to thank, along with others.
I thought Wylie's book was good, considering the genre.
Funny, I really enjoyed that book. Having not been a skier until later in my life I wasn't ever aware of Craig Kelly while he was still around. I thought the book did a good job in showing the evolution of his career and snowboarding in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan S.