https://www.safeback.no
Thoughts?
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https://www.safeback.no
Thoughts?
Rather have an airbag personally but one can only assume they're hoping to eventually come out with a combo unit.
Agree
Great idea "if" you survive the ride.
And you aren't buried so deep that the weight of the overlying snow is crushing your chest and preventing you from breathing at all. But, yeah, seems like a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
Mostly just posted this because I was wondering if anyone had heard of it (I hadn’t).
First I have heard of it but it does sound promising.
hmmm. Interesting. First I've heard of it as well. Thanks for posting fro. Initial thoughts after spending a full 43 seconds on their website...is that I'd rather have a big inflated bag potentially keeping me on top and possibly providing some protection against trauma.
Safeback Device– A ‘new asphyxiation delaying device during snow burial in a prone position.” It is a battery powdered rebreather device that pulls fresh air from the back of a buried patient and moves it to vents located on the shoulder straps of the pack and is activated by pulling a handle on the shoulder handle.
It was developed with/for the Norwegian Military. The idea is to extend the survival rate for patients that make it past the initial 15 mins on a burial(i.e. no truma/or occluded airway)
Attachment 488275
Well, can they put that in an airbag vest with a spine guard and Leatt neck brace and and call it good?
I still ski with my avalung. I know the guy in Telluride with the record for longest burial and still surviving. The airbag is a great tool above treeline. Unfortunately, it’s proven in treed slopes it’s usually a problem because the wearer suffers more trauma being pinballed around. I like this idea coupled with an airbag and avy education
Stoked to see this shared on here - we've been meaning to post here ourselves, but haven't been able to because of permissions issues.
We are open to take any questions you may have about our technology here, or you guys can find an AMA in the r/Skigear subreddit and throw your question in there.
Otherwise, can also recommend giving our interviews with The Avalanche Hour and Gear:30 a listen...
Fire away if you have any questions!
Powered avalung.... kinda
It doesn't protect your airway during the slide or burial. Some avalung users report they were able to keep skiing and fighting because their airway was clear.
It requires charging and activation, but doesn't require you to keep in or put in a mouth piece.
Heavier and more pricey than the avalung.
Rating from a 18 year avalung user: MEH!
Maybe you can market to ground SAR as we are more likely to be hit from above without turbulent flow where you want an airbag.
I still sometimes attach an avalung to my alpride e1
Broader appeal maybe if integrated into an electric avalanche bag: use the fan, trigger and power source so you don't have quite the weight and price penalty. Sell it to alpride or litric.... That's probably your actual business plan, no?
The next innovation will be to combine this with an airbag, but 2 activation triggers when going for a ride seems complicated.
How does it work if it doesn't go directly onto your airway like the avalung?
Why two triggers?Quote:
Originally Posted by schindlerpiste
I imagine that they'd beef up the battery and fan on the airbag and just have a second stage "low speed fan" mode that's keeping the bag full and pumping excess air towards the head.
Ummm, what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Upinsmoke
As someone who has ridden a slide, and was in the "Zero Control White Room" while "ping-ponging" off of trees for a solid 100m, I would have definitely preferred to have a big ass airbag on my back.
But that's just me. I got lucky and this is anecdotal.
Avalanches in trees... I call it the Meat Grinder. Any protection you can muster should be taken seriously. I still can't believe I walked away from that.
My biggest fear was getting stuck on a tree, and then getting ripped in half by the force of the coming snow.
Maybe the airbag would have prevented me from being able to keep my feet below me, but who knows? And, maybe I'm proof that no airbag in a forest-avi is the way to survive the game of Blind-Pong.
April 4th, 2009. I don't recommend. The snow came to a stop. My face was above the surface, everything else buried. I screamed at God. Took me a painful hour just to dig down to my skis. I hate that forest now.
I'm with you gaijin on questioning the "issue" with airbag deployment in trees. Anything that would help deflect/absorb would be a good thing getting strained through trees. There was another thread that raised questions about wearing one in the trees (some cat operator was against them or something...). I maintain it can't hurt to have this shit on in avi terrain.
I think the confusion is that airbags are less effective below treeline because of the higher risk from impact trauma and that's being conflated into being actively harmful?
I've never seen any study saying they're more dangerous in trees. It is a limitation, not a liability.
In my experience, with the airbag deployed, you are carried further in an avalanche. 2 ski partners of mine have passed away in incidents below treeline, wearing airbags. Both died from trauma, not asphyxiation. Trauma from being dragged through trees. Just my data
Airbags have been around since 2009?! Damn.
Also, no one answered my question about how this thing works when your airways are blocked by and full of snow. An Avalung makes sense because you put it in your mouth like a snorkel and if you manage to keep it there, you keep your airway clear. How does this work if it's just a fan by your shoulders? I don't buy their air circulation theory.
See my post above:Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn
The idea is to extend the survival rate for patients that make it past the initial 15 mins on a burial(i.e. no truma/or occluded airway)
So the military wanted something they could integrate into a rucksack without the negatives of an airbag, ( like accidental deployment in a helicopter, tank, etc., losing pack space for the guts) and for users with minimal training. Think of soldiers marching up a road and getting hit by a slide from above.
So it is, in fact, useless if you get a bunch of snow down your nose/mouth.
This seems like a solution looking for a problem when the Avalung already exists. Or is there something I don't know about what would happen if you accidentally deployed your Avalung in a helicopter?
All these devices have drawbacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn
I'd be curious to see the statistics on how many skiers trust they can insert the mouthpiece in time vs just always descend with it in.
The statistics would be harder to come by, but given how wildly violent avalanches can be and how often we hear about articles of clothing getting ripped from people, what is the success rate of keeping the mouthpiece in for a full slide and burial?
If one's mouth can be forced open enough to pack the throat with an ice plug, I don't see how biting down on an avalung mouthpiece will significantly change that.
Anecdotal but we just had a local dude die in a slide with an avalung, but couldn't get it in his mouth in time. I feel like it's another tool along side of the airbag that offers about an additional chance at survival, but much like an airbag is only useful if all the tangibles line up e.g you can get it in your mouth, don't have snow rammed down your throat and your airway isn't compromised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ørion
Maybe I misread the report, but I thought he survived and the other rider (who had an airbag but also failed to deploy) was the fatality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuntmonkey
Either way a tragedy admittedly.
Hey stuck, I think your information is incorrect. I believe I've had one since the early 2000's (2002 or 2003). I intergoogled and found this:Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn
https://www.snowsafe.co.uk/history-o...-have-evolved/
1996 – ABS New System
Unveiling of the first ABS system with two airbags (TwinBag). The system was also completely redesigned, with a pyrotechnic pneumatic activation unit replacing the previous Bowden cable. The backpacks were produced by Vaude.
The first bag I had was manufactured by ABS. I'm on my third bag now and am very happy with the weight, the useable volume of the pack, the rechargeability, the ability to fly with it (with minimal fuck-around).
Calling any avalanche safety devices "useless" shows how little some understand risk and mitigation. Hell, even avalanche cords were not "useless".
By useless, I mean not solving a problem any better, maybe worse, than something cheaper, lighter, and simpler than already exists. You haven't answered how it does anything better than an Avalung or even nothing at all when my face is blocked by or full of snow and ice. What I read from what you wrote is that someone said "avalanche safety device" and you just decided that automatically means it enhances safety somehow. No one has explained to me how exactly. The air just circulates around while I'm upside down in a treewell and all my head holes are stuffed and there's a hairdrier behind my head? Nope, sorry. Don't buy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
Avalanche cords aren't an analogy for this either.
I guess I was hoping for something dramatic with the helicopter.
Is there more room around you when buried than I'm thinking there is? Is the snow somehow more porous than "sets up like concrete" when it stops moving would suggest?
I'm asking honest questions, and you just decided I'm dumb and not worthy of answering them. If you really think this works, then tell me what I'm missing. Being former ski patrol for a place we all loved doesn't make you smarter or holier than everyone else, but you sure like to act like it sometimes.
If you're just gonna come with that hot shit Bozeman attitude, then eat a bag of dicks instead of trying to say anything. It's a better use or your mouth and typing fingers.
I don't understand something that I have never seen therefor it must be useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn
Google? Hear of it?Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn
Can you breathe when trapped under snow?
Most sources say that a person who is completely buried can live for about 18 minutes. Even though snow is porous and contains a lot of trapped oxygen, victims breathe their exhaled air, causing carbon dioxide poisoning.
I am sorry if that is how you took my answer. I know absolutely nothing about this product other than what we have both seen here.Quote:
I'm asking honest questions, and you just decided I'm dumb and not worthy of answering them.
Why thank you I guess.Quote:
If you really think this works, then tell me what I'm missing. Being former ski patrol for a place we all loved doesn't make you smarter or holier than everyone else, but you sure like to act like it sometimes.
If you're just gonna come with that hot shit Bozeman attitude, then eat a bag of dicks instead of trying to say anything. It's a better use or your mouth and typing fingers.
Not an avi pro, nor profess to any great knowledge of the mechanics of getting buried but my understanding is that an avi bag when properly inflated will keep you on the surface therefore you don't have the same chance of complete burial (and asphyxiation).
Edit to add I share stuck's pessimism about the tech touted by the avilung fan thing. I figured the air bag was a better tool for surviving an avalanche when I bought my first avi pack and never liked the idea of having to find the tube with my mouth while in a washing machine.
I get the airbag part. I guess I'll just have to google "how can I ever be as core as bunion". Hopefully I never will be, since I don't have it in me to switch to banging nails for a living. Pulling network cable in old buildings every once in a while is hard enough. But the CoRdZ.
Without insulting you even further, Airbags are supposed to prevent/reduce the potential for full burial.
An Avalaung and this device are supposed to reduce the poisoning effects of re-breathing the CO2 that builds up around your airway when buried and kills you. That is why the intake and exhaust in an Avalung are separated. The danger is not being able to breathe it is the CO2.
That said, there is a secondary danger in most any avalanche and that IS getting your airways filled with the fine powder that is produced by the turbulent flow.
I don't think BD still produces the Avalung, possibly because of the difficulty of getting the mouthpiece in and keeping it in during what can be a violent event.
This horse is dead. Carry on.
A clarification, excess CO2, hypercapnia, is NOT primarily what is killing people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
Hypoxia is killing people.
Hypoxia either through:
1. Asphyxia: obstructive, positional, or constrictive
or
2. Rebreathing exhausting oxygen in accessible air: Poor gas exchange with the surrounding snowpack causing rebreathing and oxygen depletion of the local airspace. In better but still insufficient diffusion, hypercapnia complicates the slower hypoxia, and long enough you get hypothermia.
This device helps only with #2
Avalung also helps with some of #1
The Avalung prevents warm moist air exhaled from forming an ice mask further decreasing diffusion. Presumably some airflow generated by this fan thing could have some effect like that.
No, but when your platoon is assigned to patrol in the mountain for a few weeks a year how do you dictate to soldiers when they need to have a tube in their mouth, and when not too?Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn
The Avalung was tested the same way as this thing, by burying people in the snow FWIW. They presented stats showing it 'works' at ICAR last year, but who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn
I'm not here to defend or detract from this thing, but you just need to keep in mind it has a slightly different use case that may (or may not) align with a recreational backcountry ski user...
There's plenty of non-avy savy workers that operate in avy terrain - law enforcement, soldiers, plow drivers, cat operators, people shoveling walk ways, etc. that die every year in avalanches.
Alright, well, thanks everyone for enlightening me. Still seems debatable whether or not it does anything.
I’m bumping this back up since I just ordered a Raide SB40L. Hopefully the temps drop a few degrees and the pack ships soon. I’m looking forward to putting it through it’s paces.
I always envision something like this, integrated into a full face snowmobile helmet.
The high route just put out an article about this system, seems like there are some kinks but early studies are decent? They mention starting the system before dropping in as insurance. Seems like it could be good for situations like tree skiing where tree wells are an issue.
I’m curious to see how it does in the field with some real use this season
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