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I have an offer on the table for a new position. More responsibility, longer commute (but not terrible). Salary is a 50% increase over what I currently make, and likely will be 100+% within a few years. Pretty much life changing money. Anyone faced a similar decision?
Mo money, mo problems.
So how life changing is the money? Write the pros and cons on a piece of paper, cuz life is a balance beam.
I’ve been thinking of planting a clover lawn.
Nitrogen fixing. No Fert required
As for work. Ugggh. Double the money is double the expectation.
If you’re young, grab the brass ring. Knowing you’re being played. Play them. Do a few years and cash out.
I’ve sold out before. But it has to be strategic.
Any equity involved (sorry, don't know your field)? That type of potential upside can help make the decision. Also, what will the lifestyle impact be? Working way more hours? Seems like the upside is pretty solid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
how happy are you with yer current situation? did you seek this new opportunity or is this coming from a headhunter?
That's a tough one. Your kids are still young, correct? I put my kids ahead of me and lived and worked for a long time because it was best for them. They're now grown in their mid 20's and my outlook is completely different. I'm actually quitting my job tomorrow because it's annoying and I drive too much. My next job will surely pay less, but I'll commute on a bike. It took a long time to get here though.
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
Old employer wanted me back.
I didn't want to go back, so negotiations ensued.
I got a sweet deal, with 8 weeks of vacation a year and shitload of stock. I worked there another 11 years, initially fun, then not so fun.
The vacation time was critical since my kids were under 10 when I went back and I wanted to spend time with them. Which I did.
If I have any suggestions, it's to see if you can leverage a bunch of vacation time. Money helps a lot, but there's nothing like time.
You can always make more money but you can’t get more time
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No equity immediately, but the position is a fast track to being a shareholder. I don't want to get too detailed for obvious reasons, but I currently work for a national A/E/C firm with 5,000 employees. The position is at another A/E/C firm that is about 1/3 the size but has an excellent reputation.Quote:
Originally Posted by phatty
It would certainly be more hours, though exactly how many more is hard to say yet. Currently I work 40-44 hrs/wk most weeks and right now I'm guessing that at a minimum that ceiling will become a floor. I bike commute most days and that will no longer be feasible. However, my house and the new office location are both close to light rail stops (5 min drive and 5 min walk, respectively) so I could avoid the stress of driving, and potentially I could still ride to an intermediate stop then hop on the train to get some pedaling in.
Headhunter. Pretty happy currently. I've managed to make myself a pretty invaluable member of my current team and if the economy really tanked I'm way down the list of people who would get laid off. That said, I've only been here two years so I'm not walking away from lots of seniority.Quote:
Originally Posted by m2711c
My kid just turned 14. It's a bit different than having really young kids, but he's heading into a critical time in his life that I want to be sure I'm there for.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackstraw
I won't accept less PTO than I get now (4 wks/yr), but the reality of the industry and the position is that I won't get more than that. However, the amount of money on the table could potentially mean retiring years earlier than I had planned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster Highmen
There is something to be said for taking the new job and continuing to live the lifestyle that your old job funded. Given the time value of money, banking the delta between the respective comp plans has a strong appeal.
Would you be burning bridges with your current company if you left for this new opportunity?
As the other half of DTM who's just reading to see what you all say, I'm surprised no one has been mentioning much about possible earlier retirement with more pay. In my eyes, this would enable that even a bit earlier if all goes well.
DTM is VERY good at being active so the bike commuting thing would suck not to do everyday, but he finds many other ways to stay extremely fit. I know that part of his lifestyle wouldn't go by the wayside. I'm just hoping this won't involve him working a lot of extra hours...it doesn't sound like it at the moment.
Do any of you have experience with retiring early, sooner, are you on that track or the like? Is the more money pro of this worth it?? Seems enticing.
It sounds like your lifestyle won't be diminished significantly and the upgrade potential is significant. Unless I'm missing something, I'm not hearing compelling reasons not to take it.
More clarity around the extra hours piece would be helpful since that seems like the primary concern. "More responsibility" can mean a lot of things. Are you expecting more hours because the projects are bigger, more tasks on your plate, less support & fewer resources, or something else?
My boss would be crushed if I left, but I think she'd understand. I wasn't actively seeking this out and I know 100% that they can't come close to matching the offer. I'd probably be leapfrogging her salary by a significant amount.Quote:
Originally Posted by soul_skier
This company has gradually been doing more and more work here via one of their offices in an adjoining state and has decided to officially expand into this market and open an office. I'd go from being a mid-level manager to head honcho and be building my department from the ground up (with support from the company at large), which is certainly not something I've ever done. Lot's of hiring, marketing, and business/client development relative to my current position. I already do all of that to various degrees, but not as core job duties and not as top dawg.Quote:
Originally Posted by North
All of it depends on what you want in the end. Would you like to be stretched by the new work? Or do you want to keep doing what you are doing (nothing wrong with that)? Would you be able to leverage the offer to get more from your current company?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
I had something similar a few years ago. I was recruited to lead a team where I had previously not been leading the full global team. Big step up in pay and responsibility. It was a non public start up so got a decent chunk of options. I enjoyed the extra challenge and did well. Leveraged that into another, similar position. Lifestyle has stayed pretty similar, though morning runs are tougher with early meetings with my EMEA employees. I figure I have one more jump to build up my nut to retire (goal is by 55).
Based on what you are saying, it seems like you want to do it and it will accelerate your end goal. Sounds like a great opportunity! Good luck with the decision!
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Retiring early was worth it. I checked out at 38 which was earlier than expected but that was after working 80hrs/week for the better part of a decade. No kids too so that helped with the calculus. After I retired I tried doing nothing for a year and was bored out of my mind so started working again with people I enjoyed hanging with but keeping it to 10-15 hrs/week with approx 8 - 10 weeks off a year to ski/bike/travel etc. Sounds trite but they became friends when I worked and stayed friends throughout.Quote:
Originally Posted by altachic
DTM - you mentioned A/E/C. Shareholders in AECs can, at the right time, supercharge their earnings thru dividends and ROC for shareholder partners. If you're in a cyclical AEC in a downturn this can absolutely not work out but that means just a healthy salary and no annual dividend bonuses. I currently "work" with tech companies but also with clean-tech SME companies that employ lots of engineers so have seen colleagues/friends go through cycles especially if in the renewables/mining/resource/pipelines/power-gen categories.
Guessing you're an engineer or some other designated professional. From second-hand experience my friends who were engineers who went the shareholder/partner route AND who managed their expenses, personal lives AND who continued to live in a place that had close proximity to recreation (Squamish, Vancouver, Whistler - SLC seems like it fits that ticket) worked hard but have raised fantastic families and preserved their marriages/sanity. Many of them in their 50s have then semi-retired. The one's who had skillsets or who worked in specializations which lend themselves to part-time work did so as consultants or in small discrete bite-sized projects have done what I did and work enough to keep themselves entertained but not overworked.
Obviously every situation is different. Hope this is helpful.
After reading the details, my question for DTM is whether all those new responsibilities as head honcho is exciting and an opportunity for growth professionally or whether it is just stuff you won't like doing and won't add to your growth as a professional? If the former, everything you've said tells me you should take it. If the latter, much harder question. But I'm someone who strongly values the idea of doing stuff you like (or is good for you) and avoiding BS stuff.
You'll be busier than hell for the next year or two, but you'll learn a ton about yourself, the business, and your relationship with your partner. Get through that portion and get the department running well, and you'll be back to what you have now (except with more money). I did it twice in my career, and both times, it paid off both financially and career wise.
Take your time in building your team, don't settle on a less than perfect hire (one of my first mistakes). This is why it can take up to two years to hire and get running. Be prepared to be overloaded, but also embrace it
Invest the money and retire early. I got laid-off at 56, severance to 57 and retired to enjoy life. As Lee Lau said, retiring can get boring (which really has surprised me). I might take some part-time work in the future, but I am content now.
Iowagriz pretty much nailed it, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by phatty
Mostly the former, but with the anxiety that accompanies a big step into the unknown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
Yeah, that's the dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowagriz
Thanks for the advice everyone.
if you take this and it doesn’t work out, what’s yer backup plan?
Find another job?
What are the chances that “other job” will end up paying less, at least initially, than what you’re earning right now now?
nobody ever wants to think about the possibility that they’re going to fail a particular endeavor. And, failure in that endeavor can come in lots of varieties that actually have nothing to do with fault of the person we are discussing.
How certain are you of the pending opportunity providing the consistent elevated returns you are expecting vers the known returns of your current circumstance?
a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, or so I’ve been told…
What side of the AEC industry? I assume the design side as you note a 40hr WW and a fixed commute… in that case, I find it hard to believe that the step up in responsibility and work hours would be astronomical. It sounds like a ~10% increase in demand for a 50% raise. Worth two years to test the water IMHO. Don’t burn bridges in the transition. “Rehires” are common in the industry.
Another way to think about it…. What pay bump from your current employer would make you not even think about leaving? 20%
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Pretty low odds, and pretty certain.Quote:
Originally Posted by m2711c
It rhymes with dental.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickwm21
I'd go out of my way to exit amicably, and if the new position didn't work out I feel pretty confident that they'd rehire me like it never happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickwm21
I've thought about that a lot. 20% would definitely make me think hard, but I'm pretty sure I'd be making more than my boss which could lead to resentment. This does not feel like a time for half measures.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickwm21
I probably would have retired around 40 if I didn't have to worry about kid expenses and health care. Goddam Canadians. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
Fwiw some friends of mine in Germany also had the same calculations as us in Canada. Their Healthcare was about the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by skaredshtles
The cost of kids has gone up a lot also due to the expense of secondary education in the US which to me, was eye-opening.
Money is nice to have. Take the job.
Yeah - goddam Germans, too. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
You ain't kidding - 3rd one started at uni in August. 1st one finished Dec '22 and the 2nd finishes this May. I'm gonna be rolling in disposable income... in a few years. :DQuote:
The cost of kids has gone up a lot also due to the expense of secondary education in the US which to me, was eye-opening.
I've said to my brother that I'll help out the nieces when it comes time for their secondary education. Seems like a right thing to do. But it's an order of magnitude less in Can for tuition than in the US. UBC degree is $ 5k per year in tuition. US/International rates for UBC tuition is approx $ 25K per year and even then I'm told that's cheaper than the US degrees. CrazyQuote:
Originally Posted by skaredshtles
Another thought for DTM. You'll be forced/coached to practise bizdev and rain-making/schmoozing skills. That happened to me mid-career. I got comfortable with knowing how to adjust quickly when quizzed and running with ideas and translating them to action/implementation or figuring out reasonable alternatives. I'm sure you're already doing this but you'll be doing it more so than before when you're the top dog/lead. And that's a heck of a good skill to practise and learn.
One more thought re what altachic said. It always helps to have and earn more $. I call it saving/having a bag of FU money. It doesn't mean you have to tell other demands on your time FU. But it does mean that you can tell other "stuff" to take a hike. And imo that gives one a certain sense of freedom of choice. Whether that means, choosing to work more or to work less, or to take a sabbatical, or to hang with your kids, or to ski and lot/bike a lot and post excessively on TGR
Hard to argue against this.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
I always argue that people should work less, even if it means earning less. I've never really understood the drive to work a lot (40+h/wk) or even a shitload (80h? nuts!) for a lot of years in the hope that one can retire at 65 or so. That's selling one's best years so that one can "relax" when one is over the hill.
My personal situation is not widely transferable (self-employed for most of my career, frugal to the point of still being kind of a dirtbag, no kids, etc), but I have largely stopped working at 47. (And averaged around 20h/wk for the last 6 years or so.) I can afford to travel and buy new bike parts once in a while, but I'm not driving a car built in the last 15 years.
DTM's situation here, however, is a little different. It sounds like working way less is not really on the table, especially with a kid. It also sounds like the increased rate of pay could be so overwhelming that a few extra hours will be worth it. But do the math! If you're working 44h now and the new expectation is 55h, that 50% increase in salary works out to only 120% your current hourly rate. So if making 100k now, that's $43.70/hr vs $52.45/hr at the new rate/hrs. Just figure it out for your salary.
How much is riding your bike to work worth? Getting hit by that car seemed pretty fun, and surely you don't want to give up future opportunities for that. How much would losing another 10ish hours a week impact your time with your kid? How many fewer ridge traverses will you be able to do if you lose that time? Especially since you'll feel pressure to minimize the impact on the kid time.
I feel like people in general have really lost sight of the concept of "ENOUGH".
Like, how much money/clothes/cars/furniture/square feet/etc does one really need? Happiness, as we know, is mostly determined by one's in-built mindset unless one is genuinely suffering financially. If you're making enough money to live a comfortable life and you enjoy your work and co-workers and your job is stable, that "greener" grass is likely just our consumerist society talking.
To state the obvious: no job is a guarantee. Not the one you have and not the one you're considering. You're presumably being headhunted because you have experience, skills, and a reputation that make you a valuable hire. That's not going to change whether or not the new gig ends up being a good fit. If you're excited about it, try it and give it a real effort. If you're worried about losing valuable time with your kid, set some hard boundaries on your time from the jump. Don't be afraid to bail if it's not working out.
I have some smart and talented friends that (IMO) limit themselves for fear of losing their paycheck/the unknown. That's natural, but my fears of change diminished greatly when I got laid off in my late 20s (~8yr gig, only real job I'd ever had). I came out the other side just fine, if not better. If you don't have FU money, FU confidence that you can and will find another equal or better opportunity is the next best thing. Moving around occasionally and taking a leap is a great way to build that confidence.
FWIW my perspective is not coming from the "more money = more better side". I'm in a very similar situation to climberevan, and heavily prioritize enjoying my time outside of work. I did some sustained dirtbagging before my current gigs really got going, and there's no way around the fact that $$$ matters, even if you're not chasing excess (currently buying almost all the fancy groceries I want).
The description of the new job sounds exciting.
If you are up to the challenge.
If you are, many folks would take the new opportunity for the same pay.
Money isn’t everything. But it helps.
Lots of good points. If the workload really does end up being 55 hrs a week, yeah, I'm out. Riding my bike really is worth a lot (FTR, I didn't get hit on my commute, that's what I get for violating my "Only for transportation, not recreation" rule :D). I can tell you from experience, like last winter when it never stopped snowing or my recent adventure with a broken thumb, that it's impossible make up those training hours. I estimate that I did at least 2,500 miles last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
I'm really not the "Keep up with the Joneses" type. The goal would be to maintain my current lifestyle as much as possible and bank money so I can exit this game much sooner than planned, maybe with a "I'm looking for the least possible amount of responsibility" part time gig. My latest model vehicle is a 2010. If I want to make the Joneses jealous I just do yard work out front with my shirt off.
This hits home. It feels a little like I imagine it feels to get the call to go film in AK. Could end up being the ride of a lifetime, could end up in a pile of sluff with a blown knee and bloody face.Quote:
Originally Posted by North
I like to say that the things that make me happy can't be bought, but that doesn't mean they don't cost money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Shot
That's worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
My choice integrated that, but I got out sort of late at 62 with enough so our 2 kids don't qualify for FAFSA and we can afford their college.
I actually liked making stuff though.
Sig worthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
Some things to consider- added responsibility means that you will be working more, officially or unofficially due to the the larger chunk of your thoughts the job will take up. You will likely need to be available afterhours, and life will begin to blend with work with less of a boundary. More vacation sounds nice, but can be a trap in that you have to actually take it and sometimes the increased stress from preparing for/catching up from vacation ends up negating the benefit of vacation. the job may appear cushy at first, but the extra responsibilities (after hours BD, mgmt meetings, travel, HR issues, etc on top of producing measurable project work) can be a real pain in the ass, especially if you have kids you want to spend time with.
IMO, the added stress and time is worth it if you will be able to take pride in your success at the new job. If you arent emotionally and psychologically invested in the success of your company/program, the money wont be worth it (unless its fuck-you money). The most successful people i have known love doing their job- they have more than enough money to retire, but they are truly invested in their work and take immense pride in it so they keep at it. So if this job is something you will be proud of and something you are excited to take on the challenges regardless of the money, then you should do it. But if you are just taking the job so you can buy a few more toys, and retire a decade earlier at 50 (while sacrificing time with your kids when they are in the house with you), then its probably not.
Basically, if you are very comfy financially now, then the money should be a fairly low priority when deciding to take the job... though once you do decide to take it definitely negotiate the shit out of your compensation.
Final thing to add- Make sure your partner is 100% onboard first because they will have to step up as well for the first year or two while you work extra hard to get your feet underyou and learn the new roles, responsibilities, personalities, processes, etc of the new job and the company. You will not be efficient, or know what corners to cut until youve done the job for a little while. Coming home an hour later each day doesnt sound like much, but when you have kids it can throw things off significantly and your partner will have to deal with these changes and pick up your slack. They can't be half in, they need to be all-in just like you.
Tgapp would appreciate a phone call next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
I just saw this thrad and it really hits home for me. I know I’m late to the party like two weeks, but I sure as shit have been running my whole being a day late a dollar short. So Fred is going to take a back seat for a second and the other guy is going to comment. I deal with this same crap day in and day out and agonize over work related decisions every day I wake up.
On one hand I enjoy stuffing hundreds into my mattress the flip side is I hate having to work like the end of the world is around the corner. There is no halfway button anymore when it comes to work. I’m all in and desperately want to give every day 110%.
I spent my 20’s being the biggest ski bum ever and I look back today and wish I could go back in time. The kicker is, I can. I’m just too scared to do it. My expenses are low I can easily and happily live like a dirt bag. The flip side is picking out furniture, a pimp van, and great vacations. Not sure that all adds up, or what it adds up too. I like to give climberevan some shit for being such a dirt bag, but deep down maybe I’m jealous that he can just sit on the sidelines and be content.
Successfully managing millions of dollars a year is a feather in my cap. When do you throw in the towel and say enough? Now that (cough cough) I’m in my late forties and fifty is at my door step I have suddenly realized that yeah, the fifties are where you are at the top of your career and can easily make bank if your that person. Why do I walk away? Why do you make changes for more money?
For a number of years I said I would retire at fifty and start the second phase of my life, maybe a greater at Walmart? Maybe work in an auto shop two days a week for fun? Maybe just travel.
That's what I don't get about most of the senior people at my company, especially those that are at or above "standard" retirement age.Quote:
Originally Posted by fastfred
Why are they still at work? Their kids are long done with college, I know they have plenty of money...what is another year of income buying them that they can't already afford?
It is not like they are professors or some job like that where I can understand the drive to keep doing research/teaching students into their 70s...they are working in an office (or home office) in front of a computer on things that 99% of the world doesn't care about.
I suppose I should be grateful because they stick around and bring in clients and run projects...but I don't think I'd be doing that.
For Dantheman's offer, I feel like he should take it unless the prospect of being the head honcho is something he seriously does not want to do. It is good money, good experience, and it is probably a pretty good influence on the 14 year old to see dad doing something like that. Once the kid is done with college, have a plan for what you actually want out of the job--when is retirement on the table, can you reduce to part time or seasonal status, can you bank the money and transition to a "retirement" job.
Well, it took a while but I did it, start Monday. Left my previous company on excellent terms and was told repeatedly on the way out that I have a standing offer to come back any time no questions asked. So, not much to lose really. This is going to be quite a ride.
In terms of money/time balance, I'm getting 160 hrs of PTO annually which is the same as before, but this company also does separate sick pay on top of PTO (80 hrs/yr) and does two more paid holidays per year (both during ski season).