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I think BTR has the right idea with making aggressive hardtails - making the unsagged HTA very slack but keeping the intended fork travel short, 120-130mm. Seems like most other "enduro" hardtail frames do the opposite, with forks 140-170mm but relatively conservative HTAs which would end up being ~69 when the fork is deep in its travel.
Are any other frame manufacturers making (non-custom) hardtails with headtube angles 62 - 63deg with a <140mm fork?
Don't know if it's THAT slack but I think new Solaris is like 65/120mm?
In my hardtail experience, if you ride chunky terrain frequently you start to develop a stance in which the fork is weighted a little bit more than a very centered front/back weighting stance in a modern geo FS bike.
Doing so allows the rear end to pivot upward rather than hang up on square edge hits.
My point here is that based on my HT experience anyway, I prefer a 140 or better yet 150 mm fork….these usually are 62-63.5 unsagged HA, so even 60 mm into travel the HA is only 65-66.5 deg. Not sure where you’re getting that 69 deg example? Are you not referring to the usual hardtail brands like Chromag, Ragley, On One etc? I recall even Marin had a 62 deg HA frame.
But your post is interesting. I recall BTR having a 61 deg HA with a 150 mm fork but I haven’t paid attention lately.
Seems like you could get one of the 62 HA affordable frames and use an angle set to get the slack 130 mm bike you’re looking for. Lots of shorter crank options to compensate for the slightly lower BB
Or, run the longer fork with enough tokens that you never use that last 20-30 mm of travel?Quote:
Originally Posted by frorider
For a bit of context, I currently have a Banshee Paradox with a 130mm Mezzer Pro which probably sits around 65.5 deg for the headtube angle. Perfectly fine for most riding, but I find for sustained rough and steep sections I'm wishing for a slacker bike, but not necessarily more travel. It also doesn't help much that the Paradox prefers a more neutral, balanced position, especially compared to my full-sus G1 which just likes the front end hammered into as much as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by frorider
Running a longer fork on the popular hardcore hardtails but adding progression until the last 20-40mm of travel isn't used isn't a bad idea, but seems a bit... wasteful? Very aware that this is silly, especially since I'm running a 180mm enduro fork on my hardtail stepped down to 130mm. Generally on a hardtail I want a stiff, supportive fork that pairs well with the static rear end.
For my own purposes, I'll probably try a angleset of some sort on the Banshee and go from there. But it's a little weird to me that in the hardtail world, more enduro-oriented = more fork travel. That makes sense in FS world, but I'm not convinced it's the right call for hardtails.
This is what I do too... basically a 150mm fork with the tokens and pressure of a 120-130mm fork - especially as getting a real (ie fox 36 etc) fork in short travels is increasingly hard these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
edit - just saw your post on mezzer pro being setup at 130mm... very interesting!
But yeah, the only real difference between shortening a longer fork vs running a longer fork with the same pressure/etc as you would on a shorter setup is your are just introducing a mechanical stop to the travel (the shorter shaft length). The fork itself is basically setup the same.
Great minds Dan and Marshall.
I run a 150mm Manitou Mattoc on a Cove Hummer with a lot of mid stroke support and bottom out resistance. Most of the travel is to 110- 130 with the bigger hits eating the last 20mm
Marin El Roy is what you seek (I did not see "light weight" in your list of considerations...Quote:
Originally Posted by McShortyShorts
https://www.marinbikes.com/bikes/202...-frame-kit#buy
Never mind - I see that your range was 120-130 vs 140-170...
In that case I agree with upthread - run the 140 with tokens.
I found one place selling an el roy complete for like $1300...edit - looks like marin got wise to them selling below MAP...$529 for the frame tho!
Manitou doesn't officially endorse 130mm of travel on the Mezzer, but they also include enough spacers with the fork to set it to 130 so....
FWIW, I love the Mezzer @130mm of travel. Does a really good job muting out small vibrations and provides good front tire grip, while still being really supportive, and feels really balanced on my hardtail
Quote:
Originally Posted by McShortyShorts
Not that it totally fits here, but for OP just built up a new bird forge, mix of 853 and 6 series, 140 fork tho:/ static HA is 64
Attachment 478316
X4 or whatever for the 150mm fork set up to be progressive.
A bit of extra forgiveness is nice for nosing into rough landings.
a BIT off topic.
I love the idea of a hardtail with slack angles, but ALSO like the light weight of carbon, AND the small price of the non-branded frames from factory direct.
Anyone found a similar, short travel bike as above, but carbon and direct?
Alright, sounds like I need to try out longer forks on a hardtail again... my only experience has been an old Commencal Meta HT and that's been the worst bike I've ridden to date
I’m a believer in progressive setup, but personally still think 130-140 is the sweet spot. You could go custom with Marino. Not gonna be light but it’ll be exactly what you want.
https://www.marinobike.com/
If you are into trail bike hardtails and like Titanium at reasonable prices, have a look here:
https://labaustere.com/products/lab-...trail-hardtail
Marshal stop taking all my money!!! I'm already putting aside funds/excuses for 2-3 pairs of HLS for next season. Bike looks sweet tho and I've been telling everyone they should get it.
:tongue::tongue::tongue:
Sorry not sorry!
haha
For what it's worth I ordered a frame from him about a year ago. The communication was poor and it had a pretty big issue with the brake tab alignment he wouldn't rectify.Quote:
Originally Posted by bagtagley
This thread is kind of funny, a lot of people suggesting things that are not what the OP asked for. He is chaising a bit of a unicorn I suppose.
Damn, that sucks. I knew communication was an issue, but seemed like most people got what they were expecting. Were you able to sort it out yourself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eluder
There may be some Brit bikes that fit what you want once you consider that most of the geos are sagged. Though, they don't always tell you, sometimes you have to contact them and ask. Otherwise, I think an inexpensive 140mm hardtail with a angle reducing headset is the next best option. That's what I've been planning on doing cause affordable options are limited in the short travel, super slack hardtail space, and I really like my Eccentric other than wanting a slacker HTA.
I suppose I am unicorn hunting... browsing thru the popular hardcore hardtail options again, still seems like 63 deg HTA is the non-custom limit, probably for good reason, and even then the stack and reach numbers don't always work out to what I want. I guess it's good then that the custom hardtail market is alive and well
I ordered one if his of the shelf frames, originally he told me it was in stock and should ship after powder coating in two weeks. I checked back in about 4 weeks and got nothing. Hit him back about a week later and got a response that he just finished making the frame and it should go to powder coating within the week…. It shipped about 3-4 weeks after that.Quote:
Originally Posted by bagtagley
The I.S. tab was way out of alignment and too far in. He said that it was fine because calipers are adjustable. You couldn't even get the rotor past the adapter, so caliper alignment wasn't the issue. I ended up filing it until I was sick of filing. Which left me limited to using a 160mm, but able to make it work.
I kept it cordial and chalked it up to “one of those things..” If it was domestic the frame would have been sent back.
There are mainstreamish brands with 62 HA, so keep looking, or you can go for a 58 deg HA: https://m.pinkbike.com/news/shand-la...ead-angle.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by McShortyShorts
But keep in mind at some point you get slack enough that the fork flexes rather than compresses, and the bushings bind.
Obviously a moto has rear suspension, so can’t directly compare HA, but the concept is similar.Quote:
Unfortunately, the only worthwhile study I've seen on bushing bind vs HTA was subject to NDA (ie. I can't share it). The short version is that friction increases drastically and absorptiveness falls off a cliff at the inflection point (indicated at 62.0 degrees with no mention of sag IIRC). Interestingly, increasing bushing overlap doesn't fix the issue, which is (allegedly) one of the primary reasons that modern motocross bikes have settled at 63.5-64 degrees, with extra steering stability being sought via fork offset, weight distribution, and steering dampers, rather than slacker steering angles. As you might imagine, Honda, Yamaha, KTM, etc. have done far more testing in this arena than the entire MTB industry combined.
I have an On One "Hello Dave", which is a steel 29er hardtail with a 62* HTA with a 150mm fork. Mine has a 160mm Lyrik. I like it quite a bit.
It's heavy, but there is a titanium version available too.
It's not the short travel slack HT you're seeking, but maybe it's of interest.
Not sure what prices will be like on that side of the pond; but check out the Pipedream Sirius. With a 120 fork, it's very capable, though I've been running mine with a 140 for the last year because it was all I could get my hands on when fork shopping. I'm planning to split the difference and go for 130 when I next service it. FWIW I like to ride a mix of steep tech as well as put in big miles, the bike does both very well.
Not sure if it's been mentioned in here, but a Marin El Roy seems to fit the bill pretty well. $700 frame, 63° head angle with a 140mm fork.
mildbill also recommended that. I of course discounted it outright, because Marin. But, looks like a pretty sweet frame. McShorty, get one and let me know if a 78 degree STA is too steep. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by toast2266
That's cold man, after all these years...Quote:
Originally Posted by bagtagley
Last I checked these are out of stock and have been so forever. I was waiting for months and just bought something else instead. I agree it seems like exactly what OP wants though.Quote:
Originally Posted by springsproject
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Heh. I should never have doubted you.Quote:
Originally Posted by mildbill.
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/25/25e2...c75b63ce3e.jpg
So seems like BTR is one of the only frame builders that markets a 120-130mm hardtail as "enduro" rather than as an all-rounder. Marin El Roy is probably the next closest. I think there still is some benefit to a shorter travel (or at least shorter axle-to-crown length) for for a slack hardtail, but obviously most people aren't going to want to get a custom machined airspring for their Fox 36 etc. to bring its travel down.
Not exactly cheaper than a BTR, but the Scharen DG sounds interesting https://www.scharencycles.com/dg.html. Hardtail Party Steve (national treasure) seemed to love his custom DG. It's not built for a short fork but definitely goes by long/low/slack design principles.
If you're weakening and considering a BTR, couldn't hurt to look into higher end custom. I bet that's close to Walt Works pricing.
You're running a 5th spacer in your Mezzer?
Yup, and just extrapolated the air chamber pressures from Manitou's recommended settings for the longer lengths and tuned from there, although I was very impressed how quickly I could find my preferred feel just by fiddling with the damper settings. I (175lbs nekt) ended up somewhere around 80-85psi in the main chamber and 120 in the IRT.Quote:
Originally Posted by bagtagley
That’s pretty awesome. Think you could add a sixth? That would get you down to BTR Ranger a-to-c territory.
Honestly I don't remember if there is anything preventing another spacer to go on the air shaft, but I'm pretty sure there isn't. And the max recommended air pressures are still way higher than you'd probably need to run them for 120mm of travel.
The Mezzers have been 40% off on multiple occasions on Hayes' website, I keep hoping that means a new Mezzer is coming, but that has yet to happen. When they do make it, will it be another 38mm Zeb/38 competitor? Or will they go dual-crown? upside down? Only offer it in Rulezman spec for $5000?
https://pacecycles.com/pages/rc429
just out from pace. 120 fork sagged is 65.5, so maybe 64 angle unsagged and actually designed for 120 fork too. might work
more here
https://www.mbr.co.uk/news/paces-new...drifter-434699
Another one for the list is the Cotic Solaris. It has a 64.6 head angle with a 120 mm fork.
Esker Japhy is 66deg measured at 30% sag with 120 fork. There is no way I’d ever run 30% on any fork, but especially 120 on that bike.
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Not only is that a super long list, it has some pretty notable omissions including Ragley, RSD, and Commencal.