https://classic.avalanche.state.co.u...=831&accfm=rep
This was just around the corner from me, and a weird spot that I wouldn't usually think of as being avy terrain. Mid elevations are in this year, but in means avy danger, too.
Vibes.
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https://classic.avalanche.state.co.u...=831&accfm=rep
This was just around the corner from me, and a weird spot that I wouldn't usually think of as being avy terrain. Mid elevations are in this year, but in means avy danger, too.
Vibes.
Sounds like there were 2 other incidents as well in the SJ's, one of them is still active SAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by miserywhip
I told my wife something bad happened after the heli flew over our house for the 4th time in a two hour period yesterday.
Attachment 449319
Yep. Awful.
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Oof. Chills.
Quote:
both skiers buried about four feet deep in avalanche debris
Attachment 449348
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A couple buddies just sent me the CAIC report, including one I was touring with yesterday at the same time, elevation, aspect and temps, 10 miles from this accident. After a good storm and high winds Wed -Thurs the temps, rose considerably. The snow turned to mank suddenly and doughnuts were rolling on our run of 30-40 degrees or so in the trees and Western aspect. The top part at 8600 WNW, was just starting to transform and got heavy at 8500 and a little more west. We decided to get out promptly.
Edit: (re-read report & aspect)The zone aspect sounds similar to ours, but less trees due to the 2002 Missionary Ridge fire and would have also transformed substantially on Friday. The CAIC report showed ‘considerable’ for yesterday and today above tree line and ‘moderate’ (Sat) and ‘low’ (today) below tree line.
Attachment 449349
Attachment 449350
Condolences to all of those affected. A snowboarder died at Purgatory last week boarding OB and apparently nailing the coaster apparatus and puncturing his heart with a broken rib. Rough week.
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I know one of the victims. He is close friends with the people I have met and tour with since I moved here. Older ,very experienced. and safe. They had been skiing this area. Pictures show a shallow snowpack and a convexity. Everyone makes mistakes. Sad day in my new small world.
Condolences BFD and anyone else who knew them. The pics on the CAIC look like it was definitely one of the burn scars. NW, 38 degrees, 8400'
I can't speak to conditions down there, but yesterday felt like the warmest day in months here in CB. More than that, however, is that we had high clouds so it was also greenhousing like crazy. Even the shady slopes were getting hot.
Sorry BFD.
I hadn’t heard the ‘green housing’ term before, but that is what happens. On overcast days, everything can feel fine and even firm, but then like a light switch, everything can seem to transform to soft and less cohesive in an instant.
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Ugh. I've seen people coming out on the Nordic trails there after skiing that zone, and it's just the type of place I could see myself skiing solo/more worried about deadfall than avalanches.
Five miles from my house, I'm going to think about this one for a long time. Not looking forward to the release of the names...
Vibes BFD. Text or call if you need anything.
I appreciate that. I am good. It is different when you have shared your lives with someone for over 25 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rideski
Super sad story. I’ve checked in with my circle and everyone is safe and none of my community know who the victims were, fingers crossed it stays that way.
I’ve heard of people skiing that zone this year with the mid-elevations being in. I’d probably go there with my guard down, just given the lower elevation and rolling terrain features.
Scary. ++vibes++ to everyone involved
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I'm not familiar with that location and haven't lived in the SJs for a decade but I could 100% see myself getting into trouble on a slope like that. My condolences to the victims and all that knew them.
The active SAR incident appears to be a missing snowmobiler near Cumbres/La Manga Pass and seems likely to be a fatality as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenboy
While reevaluating our choices Saturday and looking at the two new photos posted on the Preliminary accident report, what appears to be wind loading looks different than what we experienced. There were super high, sustained winds on Wednesday (Putney clocked 106mph), and the full length of Lake Vallecito was an unobstructed path. Brutal and depressing.
Follow-up article: Four burials, two deaths, one missing in San Juan avalanches
Edit: Skiers killed in avalanche near Vallecito Reservoir are identifiedQuote:
After more than a month without any reported burials in Colorado, four backcountry recreationists were caught in avalanches last weekend in Southwest Colorado. On Saturday, two skiers were caught, buried and killed near Vallecito Reservoir and a snowmobiler was caught and buried in a slide near Red Lake Trail off Highway 17. He remains missing.
A fourth person was fully buried in an avalanche Sunday off West Mancos Road and was successfully rescued by his companions.
RIP
Missing snowmobiler found, deceased….
Wow, the 3rd avalanche near Mancos sounded like a really close call. Props to those riders, that sounds like a very well executed rescue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord
"When the snowmobiler triggered an avalanche and was buried in the debris Saturday north of Mancos, his two riding partners immediately initiated a beacon search. According to a report submitted to the CAIC, the other two riders had been watching their friend and had a general sense of where he was located.
After pinpointing their partner’s location using a beacon, the riders were able to confirm his burial location by striking him with an avalanche probe, and began to dig him out of about 5 feet of snow. Within 5-7 minutes, the two snowmobilers had cleared their partner’s airway. He had fallen unconscious but quickly regained consciousness once his airway was clear, the report said."
I've toured in this exact zone before and never would have thought it could produce an avalanche like that. What a crazy year and a horribly tragic weekend. Vibes to those who knew them.
To a reasonable extent, the only real difference between mid-elevation terrain and places like Sam’s, The Backyard, Deer Creek, Commodore, Hudson Mine, Minnehaha, etc, etc is the actual elevation. A weak layer is a weak layer, 38 deg is 38 deg (both slope & temp), 4’ of wind slab is 4’ of wind slab, considerable risk is considerable risk…..Quote:
Originally Posted by ASmileyFace
Attachment 449564
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No doubt, but for some reason I can't explain I let my guard down a little more than I ought too in those lower elevation spots. Had some pretty good conversations with friends and touring partners these last two days about this accident. Time for a little self-reflection and a reset of mentality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord
Yeah those guys performed a rockstar companion rescue, really impressive. A little tidbit I heard was they probed the machine first (buried more deeply) but decided to keep probing to find something softer. That's some impressive clarity of mind in a stressful situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenboy
I wandered around that area above Mancos a bunch this summer and a little this winter, and where they got caught is really innocuous terrain - the kind of stuff that many or maybe even most people would travel on without thinking too much about it. Small pitch, mostly gentle terrain around it, not really that steep.
I try to remind myself all the time, and all these recent incidents really hammer it home - avalanche terrain is avalanche terrain. If it's steep enough to slide, given the right (wrong) snow conditions, at some point it will.
That view freaks me out if I think about inter mountain/continental snowpack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord
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If any good can come out of this tragedy is increased respect and awareness of ‘un-cool’ elevations and terrain.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASmileyFace
I shot this image shortly after the death of cool dude in Sam’s Trees (Abel was his name, slide upper, mid-right). Looking at Sam’s on it’s own looks not unlike foothills or lower level terrain. A reminder that even benign looking terrain and conditions on a bluebird day requires potential situational awareness and respect.
https://classic.avalanche.state.co.u...=649&accfm=inv
Attachment 449572
A buddy also had a wild, lucky ride and partially burial (IIRC) in Sam’s where it ‘broke into refrigerator size blocks’.
Edit: name correction.
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Abel was his name. He was a very close friend and a real cool dude. I miss him dearly and haven't looked at terrain like Sam's the same since. I actually skied the area where this recent accident occurred with him in January 2017.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord
I also had my closest call with an avalanche in Sams in 2013 when I had a 3' deep avalanche break under my feet in that zone. Scared the shit out of me and into my first avalanche course later that winter. I don't want to derail this thread from the recent accident anymore so I'll leave it at that, but there are some good lessons to take away from these tragedies.
Considerable is considerable, but lower elevations usually have lower risk. That's why we usually see them with a lower hazard rating. There is usually less wind. There is usually more freeze/thaw to stabilize things. There is usually less snow. Less or no history of avalanches on the slope. All of these things contribute to us feeling they are more safe (and generally, they are).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord
But when they are filled in and hitting things can change. They can experience more rapid warming. They don't have recognizable slide paths to guide us. Inversions can keep them cold when higher elevations are experiencing a freeze/thaw cycle. And while lower elevation equals lower winds all other things being equal, other things are rarely equal, like here.
Another take away, is burn areas are different than treed areas. I look at them more as ‘above timberline’ vs ‘below timberline’ relative to the zone ratings. This year is definitely unusual (for the 2000's and more like the 80's & 90's) in that a lot of terrain typically unskiable due to lack of coverage, has been an option for an extended time frame. More snow (2’) and potentially wind is coming this week too with lower temps again.Quote:
Originally Posted by powdork
For the last few winters our mid-zone ‘micro-climate’ can sometimes get as much snow as Wolf Creek or more often, the same as Purgatory, and more than Telluride, especially during more southern storms. The Wilsons (‘Storm Maker’ per the Utes) can act as a wedge diverting the storm before the San Juans, depending on storm track. The La Platas are also very capable of collecting snow, including the western side where the snowmobile rescue occurred. Good on them for saving their buddy.
Sorry for opening a wound ASF, he sounded like he was an awesome friend.
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Vibes
I'm surprised by the comments regarding lower elevation snowpacks. With CO's continental snowpack, I'd strongly disagree that lower elevations are safer. In fact, I generally consider them much less safe. If I go to higher elevations right now, I go to more of an intermountain snowpack- the basal layers are far too deep for a person to trigger. PWL's have been off the problem list for weeks now- in our snowier high elevation areas. But go downvalley? Now you've got a 2' slab sitting on 2' of facets. You're right back to CO crap snowpack.
Generally, a deeper snowpack is a safer one. Lower elevation means less snow and a higher temperature gradient, both because of colder inversion temps and the smaller snowpack.
I don't think anyone is arguing that thinner snowpacks are safer than deeper ones but generalizing based on elevation I don't think is all that accurate. The way that high elevations behave in your CB deep zone vs the Front Range vs the San Juans vs the Sawatch are totally different. I think you're right that in CB your higher elevations are typically safer than your low near-town elevations... but only if you go west. Would you consider the high elevations in the shallower snowpack zones east of town to be safer than the low elevations near town?Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenboy
I think some of the areas people are talking about here are areas that don't hold consistent snow for sliding activities every year - hence people tend to not think about them as avalanche terrain. Or when they do have snow it tends to be transient - maybe bare ground, then one storm where it's skiable, then no snow again. Never enough time to actually form layers. This year is different and very low elevations have uncommonly distinct snowpack layering.
You also can't discount the effects of wind typically creating more complex layering structures at higher elevations...
Shared that article with my crew. Always nice to hear a rescue went right. You only get one shot make it count
Points taken Adrenelated. Still, I think deeper snowpacks are generally safer, all things considered. And they're usually deeper at higher elevations. The last time there was enough snow to ski downvalley a few years ago, there was a big slide that took out the skintrack on W mountain (the mountain with a big W on it in Gunnison). Seems typical to me.
You're right though, if I had to choose between skiing something low elevation in the Taylor/Spring creek drainage (like some people are now doing this year), vs a high peak in Taylor park on the East side of my zone (with much less snow than the areas West of CB), maybe I would choose the low elevation option. It depends on wind up high in that snowpack.
Anyway, changing subjects, great job Colin, on the rescue. I don't know him well, but he gets after it and some of you have probably seen him on Nate Hills' "follow cam fridays".
This is a really interesting discussion going on in regards to lower elevation avalanche terrain. I have definitely fallen into the heuristic trap Adrenalated is describing in big winters before.
The last time I skied W mountain (2014 I believe) we skied it in the dark and totally didn't think of it as avalanche terrain. The reality is that it was a multi-storm event when we skied it, the snow was definitely faceted, and definitely could have had consequences. Good food for thought.
Terrain, terrain, terrain is the mantra this year (as it should be). You have to find the “high and wide” ground at all elevations in avalanche country and even then you could be attempting to “thread the needle”, as it’s been called.
This idea takes out all types of snow enthusiast.
Some avalanches are survivable, but some are not. Regardless of what elevation they occur. And no amount of “safety” gear will change that. There is a tendency to look for technological solutions to behavioural problems.
It’s years like this that show how our approach to risk pays off when the stakes are high.
Another factor of low elevations is they are always below treeline, and as such get the lower hazard rating that usually comes with it, even though noone ever reports from these elevations. Perhaps there is room in the advisores for actual elevations rather than just above, near, and below treeline?
This year we have tons of people skiing out their doors in Carson City, Reno, Minden, etc. Much of this would definitely be considered avalanche terrain, but SAC still just goes to the same places to dig pits it does every year.
Local snowmachiner talking about la manga avalanche. Response and snowmachiner education.
https://fb.watch/j0Tj4o2Y6S/
I don't know Colin but he rolls in some of the same circles as I do. What a great fucking job on the rescue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord
This is what I was thinking. It's quite natural for people to think "lower elevation means less risk" when most avy forecasts they read have "below treeline" as a lower danger rating. That rating won't necessarily tell you the risk with terrain that's not usually "in".Quote:
Originally Posted by powdork