School me on race skis

I'm looking for a groomer-only, first-two-hours ski but don't know what to get. Anyone help? I am NOT a former racer, so all of the terminology and manufacturer branding is really confusing.

I've read through this thread and this thread, and it seems like I should look for a ski that is low-20s radius and about 170-175cm long. About me...

I am 5'8" and 150 lbs. I am a self-taught skier but feel pretty confident calling myself an expert or very, very good skier at this point. I feel reasonably comfortable skiing anything - it's more about looking good at this point, imo. I love the feeling of carving and want to learn how to get my hip as close to the snow as possible. I do not want to actually race. I would say that I generally ski fast, and I am in my mid-20s, but I am definitely not the fastest skier on the mountain nor do I seek to be. My quiver right now is an Enforcer 104-179 (trying to replace with a Mantra M6 in 184), a Kastle MX 83 in a 173 (trying to replace), and maybe adding an M Free 118 as a powder ski next year.

Questions I have after reading through threads:

• How different are race skis from an 80s-ish all-mountain ski like a Brahma 82/88 or my MX 83? I have skied the Brahma 82 and really liked it for the edge hold and energy out of the turn. Some people also recommend the Line Blade or the Experience 98/100. Will those give a similar experience to a race ski or is that total bs?
• What are binding race plates? Do I need them? Is it worthwhile trying to buy a flat race ski and then find a binding or is that really tedious and confusing if I don't know what I'm looking for?
• If you look for a 100-102mm ski between 178 and 181, there is a wide variety of different-feeling, different-skiing skis that you can get on. My sense is that in the race category the differences are far smaller. Are there significant differences that I (i.e. a non-former-racer) would notice between brands? Or is it simply a matter of finding a ski that fits my radius and length preferences?

If you have a local ski swap you can probably pick up race skis in great condition with bindings for next to nothing. e.g. I got a pair of Rossi GS skis for CD$100.

•Race skis are stiffer & will toss down the hill—FAST!

•You need a plate- buy a used GS ski with bindings cheap

•At this stage, you won’t feel the difference ; however a 170-176 is really a 14-16 year old’s skis- will be too soft; aim for a 180-183

Welcome to the cult

Based on your self assessment, get a cheater GS ski with a 17-19M radius. You won't find a 20+M in a sub 180 size anyway.

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Originally Posted by CirqueScaler

I'm looking for a groomer-only, first-two-hours ski but don't know what to get. Anyone help? I am NOT a former racer, so all of the terminology and manufacturer branding is really confusing.

I've read through this thread and this thread, and it seems like I should look for a ski that is low-20s radius and about 170-175cm long. About me...

I am 5'8" and 150 lbs. I am a self-taught skier but feel pretty confident calling myself an expert or very, very good skier at this point. I feel reasonably comfortable skiing anything - it's more about looking good at this point, imo. I love the feeling of carving and want to learn how to get my hip as close to the snow as possible. I do not want to actually race. I would say that I generally ski fast, and I am in my mid-20s, but I am definitely not the fastest skier on the mountain nor do I seek to be. My quiver right now is an Enforcer 104-179 (trying to replace with a Mantra M6 in 184), a Kastle MX 83 in a 173 (trying to replace), and maybe adding an M Free 118 as a powder ski next year.

Questions I have after reading through threads:

• How different are race skis from an 80s-ish all-mountain ski like a Brahma 82/88 or my MX 83? I have skied the Brahma 82 and really liked it for the edge hold and energy out of the turn. Some people also recommend the Line Blade or the Experience 98/100. Will those give a similar experience to a race ski or is that total bs?
• What are binding race plates? Do I need them? Is it worthwhile trying to buy a flat race ski and then find a binding or is that really tedious and confusing if I don't know what I'm looking for?
• If you look for a 100-102mm ski between 178 and 181, there is a wide variety of different-feeling, different-skiing skis that you can get on. My sense is that in the race category the differences are far smaller. Are there significant differences that I (i.e. a non-former-racer) would notice between brands? Or is it simply a matter of finding a ski that fits my radius and length preferences?

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You mean real FIS skis, not beer-league skis? They will come with a plate, and take a specific high DIN binding, mine are DIN 20.

iriponsnow is right, anything under 180 is a U-16 ski. I'd shoot for a women's GS ski (normally 183-186). No one but heavier people or real athletes can really ski a men's GS ski well (190-195, 30m radius currently - the only people who figured out how to turn the 35m radius skis were named Ted and Marcel).

Generally they weigh a ton, don't want to turn under about 30mph, and are a gas when it's hard and smooth and you can count on having the hill to yourself. Hard to say if you'll be happy with a race GS ski, the level of commitment required is pretty high - you'll be able to ski 90% as fast, carve clean and maybe not get your pass pulled on something built for "citizen racing." If you're looking to buy next season, I loved the 2023 Atomic Redster Q9.8 and Stöckli Montero AX for this purpose.

Edit to add: I would demo the 184 M6 before you put down the cash . . .

*PSA I have actual DH skis in a 218cm you can have for a 6 pack + shipping

** I don’t drink swill

*** last set I shipped from Vermont out West ran $135

As cool as that^ would be I’d pass if I was the OP. lol

I bought some race skis for cheap on here that were marketed as GS skis, but have been told are actually old skier cross skis (I still don’t really know the difference). I don’t think I’d consider a ski without a plate for this purpose.

Maybe irip can provide a positive ID:
Attachment 414421

Regardless, they rip pretty good for me. They’re 186 and sometimes I feel like they could be longer. My background might be similar to yours. No formal instruction, late 20s (eek, I have to say that now), 5’10” 150lbs.

If I were you I wouldn’t nit pick this if you at least kind of know what you’re looking for - something 180cm>, has “GS” in listing, looks like a race ski and has a plate, cheap ($80-$150), is 2010 or newer.

I'd also say don't under estimate a true FIS 165cm SL ski. Can be very fun depending on where you ski. Much more manageable when crowds or a group is involved. IMO being on a real GS ski ripping groomers can be kinda cruel to your buddies on regular all mountain skis

Anyone want to elaborate on the SL skis? What’s cool for someone over 6’?

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Originally Posted by mr_pretzel

Anyone want to elaborate on the SL skis? What’s cool for someone over 6’?

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If Ramon Zenhausern (At 6' 7") can ski a 165, so can you.

We got some womens FIS GS skis in a 183cm from an alpine canada guy for 199$ a pair, cheap cuz they changed the rules, i use them the local DH and they are pretty fast

I would agree w/ prior comments get a 180-183 ski. I demo'd a pair of FIS Atomic G9 in 188 and they were a work out, you had to really put the effort in and get them up to speed to enjoy, like 50+ MPH. I then moved down to a 180 and much easier on the body but still stupidly fast and unusable on a crowded hill. Need to be going 40 MPH or so before they start being fun. Best part about GS race skis is the edge grip, which is unbelievable compared to a recreational ski. It feels like if you catch a edge you will literally flip right over the ski. The other thing is if you are skiing them right they don't slow down but just go faster after each turn which can get you into trouble...

For perspective, I am 6'0" and 155lb, expert who can ski pretty much everything and raced in beer league after college. My goto frontside ski is a Head iTitan, only use the G9's maybe a day or so per season.

Full-on FIS race skis don’t really come alive unless you have hard, smooth snow. The skis rely on engaging against a hard surface to be bent into a radius, and don’t do a whole lot if there’s nothing solid to push against. Soft or variable snow on groomed runs isn’t great.

I’m not up to speed on frontside skis, but unless you have those conditions, I’d look at other options. Something inspired by race skis but designed for versatility may be more fun when dealing with variable snow and other people on the hill.

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Originally Posted by Mofro261

Based on your self assessment, get a cheater GS ski with a 17-19M radius. You won't find a 20+M in a sub 180 size anyway.

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This ^^^^. You do not want FIS race skis.
I just sold my non FIS GS skis--bought em used for $100 with plates and bindings, sold 'em for $50. I got too old and the hill got too crowded. They sure could hold an edge. I think they were probably U18 spec (HS racer) but I'm not sure.. They were 180, r about 20, and a lot of fun on those very firm days.

Years ago the FIS GS turn radius was at 21 meters and then went to 27 meters and most always had a layer of Titanium or metal in them. They went further and now are at 35 meter skis in a true high end FIS GS race ski. They take getting up to full speed and being a strong skier to make a turn or else you just pivot turn them to survive...

So as stated today unless you go used skis or cheater Beer league skis, you are going to be only seeing a much higher turning radius unless you go to a Tweener ski or some old earlier than 2006 or 2007 or there about. Most all those skis were less than 66 mm under foot also, so designed for groomed snow or ice, and either came flat and you put a race plate and some bindings on them or they had the plates on them and a few were predrilled for a specific sister company's binding only. Fischer as an example had 173 cm, 178 cm, 183 cm, and 188 cm GS skis. All longer lengths were <21 meter radius (but the 2 shorter ones were usually women's and slightly under the 21 if I remember right.) Rossignol, Dynastar, Volkl, Nordica and Head had some in that range of similar lengths also. Then the rules changed and they went up to 27 meter radius. All other skis were either marketed as a high end advanced ski or cheater beer league ski because of the FIS full GS skis then needed to be the higher radius. So Fischer had 175 cm skis with either 16 or 17 meter radius that were popular as a cheater or beer league but still felt like a race ski for the most part...

Slalom skis as stated are also available in race stock skis. They were typically for a men's ski 165 cm and 12 to 12.5 meter radius and women's 155 or even 150 cm. So much more fast turn carver- short radius turns.

So the questions are how old and far back do you want to go or do you want a newer in the last few years ski??

Fast carvers out there in under 72 mm under foot, under 180 cm or so are out there in 15 to low 20's radius still, just not "GS race" in their name or marketing. Head e-race pros or maybe the Super Shape, Atomic Redster x9, Elan SCX and maybe a few others in their line, Fischer CURV M/O, Dynastar and Nordica also are out there in newer series.

Not even close to a race ski, but the Blade is your weapon if you want a cheater hip dragging weapon. Way way more fun and versatile than a race ski. Can’t help but smile ear to ear when on them. Be ready to make 30 turns where you used to make 3.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by CirqueScaler

I'm looking for a groomer-only, first-two-hours ski but don't know what to get. Anyone help? I am NOT a former racer, so all of the terminology and manufacturer branding is really confusing.

I've read through this thread and this thread, and it seems like I should look for a ski that is low-20s radius and about 170-175cm long. About me...

I am 5'8" and 150 lbs. I am a self-taught skier but feel pretty confident calling myself an expert or very, very good skier at this point. I feel reasonably comfortable skiing anything - it's more about looking good at this point, imo. I love the feeling of carving and want to learn how to get my hip as close to the snow as possible. I do not want to actually race. I would say that I generally ski fast, and I am in my mid-20s, but I am definitely not the fastest skier on the mountain nor do I seek to be. My quiver right now is an Enforcer 104-179 (trying to replace with a Mantra M6 in 184), a Kastle MX 83 in a 173 (trying to replace), and maybe adding an M Free 118 as a powder ski next year.

Questions I have after reading through threads:

• How different are race skis from an 80s-ish all-mountain ski like a Brahma 82/88 or my MX 83? I have skied the Brahma 82 and really liked it for the edge hold and energy out of the turn. Some people also recommend the Line Blade or the Experience 98/100. Will those give a similar experience to a race ski or is that total bs?
• What are binding race plates? Do I need them? Is it worthwhile trying to buy a flat race ski and then find a binding or is that really tedious and confusing if I don't know what I'm looking for?
• If you look for a 100-102mm ski between 178 and 181, there is a wide variety of different-feeling, different-skiing skis that you can get on. My sense is that in the race category the differences are far smaller. Are there significant differences that I (i.e. a non-former-racer) would notice between brands? Or is it simply a matter of finding a ski that fits my radius and length preferences?

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What is it that the mx83 is lacking that makes you want to replace them?


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As others have said, don’t discount SL skis. IMO they’ll translate to an improvement in technical skill faster than maching around on GS skis.

Skiing my GS (or skier cross) skis at JH is a 1-2 hr ordeal at best before the hoards are out. Another thing to consider - IMO skiing either true GS or SL skis on corduroy kind of sucks, glazed over icy conditions are where they shine - where they literally feel like they’re on RR tracks.

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Originally Posted by east or bust

As cool as that^ would be I’d pass if I was the OP. lol

I bought some race skis for cheap on here that were marketed as GS skis, but have been told are actually old skier cross skis (I still don’t really know the difference). I don’t think I’d consider a ski without a plate for this purpose.

Maybe irip can provide a positive ID:
Attachment 414421

Regardless, they rip pretty good for me. They’re 186 and sometimes I feel like they could be longer. My background might be similar to yours. No formal instruction, late 20s (eek, I have to say that now), 5’10” 150lbs.

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So.... ready to be confused? Skier Cross skis NOW are considered to be 190 cm / 25 M radius in 2022. That ski looks to be a older GS when the radius was ~27 M, so yea you could call is a Skier Cross stick, but its really an older GS. Current GS is 193+ / 30 M & only Stockli & Elan produce a true 190 / 25 M ski at this point.

For what you're describing, I have an old pair of (2017) Atomic Redster Doubledecks--they're 182, 65 under foot, with a 16.5m radius and it's extremely fun. From what I understand, it's a "cheater" ski with tight radius--it's perfect for a Nastar course. But I'd also suggest looking at a pair of SL skis. You'll be able to rip turns, get better at carving, and not kill someone else while trying. (There's a reason why world cup racers do most of their non-gate training on SL skis--more reps for better practice.) Essentially, SL skis come in a standard size of 165, and they're all basically the same for our purposes.

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Originally Posted by iriponsnow

So.... ready to be confused? Skier Cross skis NOW are considered to be 190 cm / 25 M radius in 2022. That ski looks to be a older GS when the radius was ~27 M, so yea you could call is a Skier Cross stick, but its really an older GS. Current GS is 193+ / 30 M & only Stockli & Elan produce a true 190 / 25 M ski at this point.

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iriponsnow, those HRCs would fit the bill for this if you wanted to unload those.

but in all seriousness, just get something 175-180 cheater GS ski with a mid 70s waist. Like that firebird, or the spitfire, volkl also has one.

but I’d be more inclined to buy a blade or a mirus cor.

^^^Two guys I ski with have Redsters for firm groom. They both like them, although one guy had a really hard time getting to flat bases - like the shop (that does know what they are doing) ended up taking the ptex down to the core on one. He’s getting a new one under warranty.

Also consider Stockli laser SL https://www.stoeckli.ch/usen/ski/ski/race/laser-sl
14m radius, hella rebound and stiff as a catholic priest at boys choir practice.

Final thought - PM Jonesy. His go-to firm snow ski is a Stockli FIS SL
Attachment 414491

I’ve got some SL skis that could cut lose if someone has interest.

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Originally Posted by SoVT Joey

iriponsnow, those HRCs would fit the bill for this if you wanted to unload those.

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I had a ski bum doing work @ the house just yesterday & he said “I’ve always dreamed of owning a pair of those….”

Handed em to em on the spot.

Went through this existential crisis early this season since moving to the ice coast.

Now have race room blizzard FIS SL and Dynastar 188cm 201.65.81 >30m radius GS.

Both have taught me a lot and are wicked fun to ski. SL for tons of turns and GS for scaring the shit out of myself when there is literally no one else on a run.

SL is great fun on anything ice to groomed. Technically challenging. I.e. not designed for, in bumps etc... GS only appropriate for well manicured groomed to smooth ice; otherwise, death.

So if you have those conditions then have at it and join the cult of freakish rails.

Make sure you have appropriate boots that can drive these skiis.


Disclaimer: I do not have significant experience on beer league appropriate 18m 'ish skiis or groomer zoomers discussed above. My preference is for no holds barred unforgiving race skiis for the groomed and ice; skiis that teach me.

So fun!

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Thanks everyone. Consensus seems to be "cheater"/"beer league" ski, which I had gleaned from the other threads. Seems like the 180-ish and 20-ish radius is what I'm looking for.

Question: What does SL stand for? Slalom?

Can anyone comment on the Line Blade vs. cheater ski question? My sense is that the Line Blade would be fun - no problem with that - and more versatile but that it wouldn't be as precise or as demanding/rewarding on fresh groomers. Is that right? To be clear: I am looking explicitly for a groomer-only ski. I don't want an all-mountain ski that will also ski groomers really well.

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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

What is it that the mx83 is lacking that makes you want to replace them?

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Last time out, I didn't feel like the MX 83 had the edge hold or turn shape diversity that I wanted. I felt like I was skidding them a lot on my last time using them and also that it was really hard to make tighter turns. Maybe it's down to tune (I haven't sharpened edges recently), but compared to a Brahma 82 that I demo'd, I found them way less fun and versatile.

I have the Blade and some older 27m (I think) 190ish FIS GS Dynastar skis with plates and the whole thing. The Blade is a hoot but not in the same league as FIS skis. You couldn’t really pick two more opposite skis other than that they can both carve. The blade is fun, poppy, and very easy to ski. The FIS sticks are not. Both will hold an edge well but race skis really turn it to 11.

My GS skis kind of scare me and if I could do it over again, I’d have gone with SL instead. I love my Blades but they are closer to Dad Skis than Race Skis. That being said, they have completely replaced my Dynastars. I have more fun carving off side hits and skiing switch than I do going purely mach looney these days.

"My GS skis kind of scare me"

This sums it up perfectly.

FIS GS skis are fun as hell but I am a little afraid to ski them due to the speeds involved and the consequences of a wreck, end of season most likely. Another reason I only ski them for a day or two a year.

Blades to any kind of race ski, cheater included, doesn’t really compute.

They would have two very different places in the quiver. I haven’t skied the Blades but would be hard pressed to think the performance is anywhere near, say, a FIS SL ski.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by CirqueScaler

Thanks everyone. Consensus seems to be "cheater"/"beer league" ski, which I had gleaned from the other threads. Seems like the 180-ish and 20-ish radius is what I'm looking for.

Question: What does SL stand for? Slalom?

Can anyone comment on the Line Blade vs. cheater ski question? My sense is that the Line Blade would be fun - no problem with that - and more versatile but that it wouldn't be as precise or as demanding/rewarding on fresh groomers. Is that right? To be clear: I am looking explicitly for a groomer-only ski. I don't want an all-mountain ski that will also ski groomers really well.


Last time out, I didn't feel like the MX 83 had the edge hold or turn shape diversity that I wanted. I felt like I was skidding them a lot on my last time using them and also that it was really hard to make tighter turns. Maybe it's down to tune (I haven't sharpened edges recently), but compared to a Brahma 82 that I demo'd, I found them way less fun and versatile.

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SL = slalom


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Atomic redster double decks made in Austria maybe 5 yrs old, got em from an alpine canada guy, only 199$ so a lot of locals bought them, buddy now sells RE. The ski sez "FIS norm" on the topsheet and we were told they were cheap cuz the rules had changed, they came pre drilled for salomons but no bindings, it looked like they had screws run in so they had been mounted but not skied or at least very lightly ... a pretty good find

How about a pair of Dynastar 4x4?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CirqueScaler

Thanks everyone. Consensus seems to be "cheater"/"beer league" ski, which I had gleaned from the other threads. Seems like the 180-ish and 20-ish radius is what I'm looking for.

Question: What does SL stand for? Slalom?

Can anyone comment on the Line Blade vs. cheater ski question? My sense is that the Line Blade would be fun - no problem with that - and more versatile but that it wouldn't be as precise or as demanding/rewarding on fresh groomers. Is that right? To be clear: I am looking explicitly for a groomer-only ski. I don't want an all-mountain ski that will also ski groomers really well.


Last time out, I didn't feel like the MX 83 had the edge hold or turn shape diversity that I wanted. I felt like I was skidding them a lot on my last time using them and also that it was really hard to make tighter turns. Maybe it's down to tune (I haven't sharpened edges recently), but compared to a Brahma 82 that I demo'd, I found them way less fun and versatile.

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”Turn shape diversity” was all that needed to be said. Like I said down below, you really aren’t looking for a GS ski. They do one thing well and that’s lay out big ass carves, If you want shape diversity out of them, you better know how to stivot, pivot, pressure, and be ready to just over power them, which probably won’t happen unless you have been hammering leg and core day in the gym. The snow is almost never hard enough anywhere except for race trails in the north east to actually get the ski to perform.

cheater and beer league skis are definitely where you want to be if you want to carve, but they are still not playful and still expect decent technique and a fair amount of input.

there are a lot of skis that are more fun and carve just as well as beer league but have much larger versatility when the mountain is packed by 10 or the snow didn’t set up as hard as one had hoped.

skibird has some skis listed. That head ispeed or whatever he has listed would fit the bill.

All very helpful, thanks a lot everyone. I don't think I ever thought I wanted GS skis. Sorry if saying "race skis" generally means GS skis. I meant the whole class of skis that are used by people to compete over how fast they can get to the bottom (from slalom to GS, incl amateur and pro). Like I said, I don't understand all of the various terminology because I never raced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CirqueScaler

Thanks everyone. Consensus seems to be "cheater"/"beer league" ski, which I had gleaned from the other threads. Seems like the 180-ish and 20-ish radius is what I'm looking for.

Question: What does SL stand for? Slalom?

Can anyone comment on the Line Blade vs. cheater ski question? My sense is that the Line Blade would be fun - no problem with that - and more versatile but that it wouldn't be as precise or as demanding/rewarding on fresh groomers. Is that right? To be clear: I am looking explicitly for a groomer-only ski. I don't want an all-mountain ski that will also ski groomers really well.


Last time out, I didn't feel like the MX 83 had the edge hold or turn shape diversity that I wanted. I felt like I was skidding them a lot on my last time using them and also that it was really hard to make tighter turns. Maybe it's down to tune (I haven't sharpened edges recently), but compared to a Brahma 82 that I demo'd, I found them way less fun and versatile.

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What’s the radius on the 172 mx83? What generation is it? My first generation 182 Mx83s are all I want if it’s firm out, stiff and damp and I really don’t want to go faster than they allow. They’re 20.5m and if it’s so firm that I need to get them up to speed to carve I don’t care to be on the hill. Anything with texture that’s been groomed is fun and pretty easy to vary turn shape. They’re even fun in crud and powder if it’s not too deep and has a base to push off.

Maybe get the edges sharp and spend more time getting comfortable on them. They’re definitely a ski that you want to stay on top of without being overly demanding like a race ski. The beer league and frontside carver skis are pretty one dimensional ime.


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There a more recent group of skis referred to as hybrids (SL x GS) of which the WRT-ST (Stockli; rebranded the WRT Pro for next season) is the one I'm familiar with. They're obviously not FIS, given their dimensions, but the generally incorporate race construction/burliness. The ST leans more towards an SL in its radius, but is available in much longer lengths. You won't be able to find the race gear end of season disposals, but if you can get your hands on some, you be smilin'.

I have a cheater Rossi with fks 15 in Van. I don't have non tech boots. If someone is interested let me know.

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Originally Posted by CirqueScaler

All very helpful, thanks a lot everyone. I don't think I ever thought I wanted GS skis.

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Yes you do.

By all means, get a cheater GS ski or some other ~180 cm, ~20m radius ski. That's definitely the ski you want.

But also go to a ski swap or get on ebay and buy some cheap FIS GS skis. FIS changes the "legal" radius on those skis from time to time, so you can buy older "non-legal" FIS skis for really cheap. Mine are 27m radius Fischers that're maybe 10 years old. They're absolutely fucking terrifying and really really fun when the groomers are empty and legit boilerplate. They're on a whole different level from any other ski I've ever been on (including beer league cheater GS skis). They're completely useless under 50mph, and they will hold a carve across blue ice that you never thought was possible. I say all this as someone who has a similar background as you; self taught, no racing experience, pretty decent skier who occasionally wants to try to drag a hip on firm conditions but doesn't really know what he's doing when it comes to hard snow carving.

Before you buy anything get a good tune on the MX83's. They should have enough grip on firm snow to do whatever you want.

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Originally Posted by The Tortoise

Before you buy anything get a good tune on the MX83's. They should have enough grip on firm snow to do whatever you want.

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Seriously, I set a 3deg side bevel on my mx83 and they were money on the very firm conditions we had most of this season.