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Snowboarder killed in avalanche, backcountry caution urged
*2x sigh* I think that's twenty deaths since the start of the month.
“They built a big jump that landed on the face of a steep ravine,” Lockhart said. “A five foot slide broke loose and buried him at the bottom.”
https://buckrail.com/avalanche-on-to...f-snowboarder/
fkn christ.
RIP. Fuck. Will be interesting to see the details from a source that isn't interested in data mining above all else.
Ok, this is ridiculous. Maybe this belongs in the Darwin Award thread.
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Tragic. And I'm truly sorry for his friends and family. But judging by that photo and what I'm reading about the snowpack down there.... I would humbly suggest that was not a very well considered idea.
I spend a ton of time in this area. The snowload is high and the usual traffic on snow is lower this year up there.
The weather here rolls over the Tetons and barrels up this pass between the gros ventres and the Absarokas; all within about a 20 mile zone. It's a funnel...
Major wind and some big snow waves (out of the Sw, West and some Wnw) in the last 2 weeks has loaded the leeward slopes heavily. Leeward being anything from north around to east facing slopes. So launching onto a NE facing slope means landing on a loaded surface.
Although the avy hazard is reducing well as the season progresses, the potential for huge slides, like the one yesterday just south of the village is still a real concern on big steeper slopes without a grabby surface. That one put a check on a few local first trackers.
Thank you for having the gumption to what I was really thinking. HFSS (holy fucking shit, stupid).Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
i was waiting for someone to say it. oof. what a terrible and terribly stupid way to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by glademaster
+vibes to all affected and respect to the dead but fkna. that was a lil rarded.
It's rad that you guys can call people that died in an accident stupid. This is a public form. Would you tell their Mom that to here face when she asked what happened? Maybe they were stupid maybe they weren't. Maybe I think the same thing. I just don't feel it is appropriate.
Here is the forecast forecast for that region yesterday https://jhavalanche.org/viewOther?area=tog Moderate with an identified Persistent Slab Problem
Hucking into a giant terrain trap on a moderate day with a persistent slab problem is stupid.
Maybe they didn’t read the forecast, maybe they don’t know anything about avalanches. It’s still stupid. Sorry if that offends you in a sub forum devoted to the discussion of avalanches and accidents.
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a. not offendedQuote:
Sorry if that offends you in a sub forum devoted to the discussion of avalanches and accidents
b. sweet "discussion"
I'm just one guy with one opinion. Sometimes it's not what you say but how and where you say it. I play the internet like it is real life. If I wouldn't say it to someone's face, I don't say it here. My thought process after a fatality goes something like this.
Consider their actions and whether or not you or any of your touring partners could have been in that situation. Process my emotions surrounding the event. [internalize and discuss in private with your touring partners]
Attempt to develop a set of hypothetical errors that COULD have been made and attempt to both learn and teach from those [discuss in public such that I can try to feel like I am helping myself and possibly help others].
Listen, you do you. I just have a bit of a different agenda. I'm at a stage in my life where I have the energy, time and headspace to try and help people. That hasn't always been the case. So I have a bit of a heightened focus on diffusing the negative energy for the benefit of others.
We've had a locker room mentality around here since about forever and that's OK. Please understand, however, that family members of avalanche victims do read this forum and have registered and participated previously. So that's is all I'm saying, just assume the the victim's friends and family read what you say.
Ok. Maybe when someone does something so obviously stupid or ignorant it needs to be pointed out. It’s not a locker room mentality. I’m tired of seeing things like this happen and all the vibes and treating people like it was unavoidable really doesn’t seem to make much of a difference.
I avoid terrain traps like that like the plague. Some might say pathologically so. I’m not taking a shot cut through that gully even if I’m dog tired. These guys built a kicker so they could huck into it. You call it what you want to. Maybe people need to hear the harsh truth.
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I'm in totally agreement with you. The challenge is to try and figure out how to make a difference. I don't know the Wenatchee scene, only the Oroville scene but what could you do locally? How is your trailhead signage? Does the local media push out the forecast? Do you have an active awareness org that is targeting at risk user groups? Do the gear shops push education and safety equipment?Quote:
I’m tired of seeing things like this happen and all the vibes and treating people like it was unavoidable really doesn’t seem to make much of a difference
Selfishly, I cope best through action. I do it for me. Others cope in different ways.
We’ve had all the things you mention for a while to varying degrees. It doesn’t seem to make much difference.
Maybe a little tough love from a person’s user group can make a difference. Not much else seems to.
Anecdotally, I changed my behavior after a long slide for life that almost killed me, based on the consequences and feedback from friends, professionals and partners, who told me I was a dumbshit for skiing where I was. I put four young patrollers at risk to long line my carcass down what was basically a steep hockey rink. I’m not doing that again and I preach to my daughter and friends about the danger of skiing steep hard snow.
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You don't have to worry about an avalanche when you are skiing steep hard snow.
I agree with that also. It seems to me that it a pretty giant leap tossing random insults at people immediately following incidents. I wish I knew a bit more about psychology and was more emotionally aware.Quote:
Maybe a little tough love from a person’s user group can make a difference. Not much else seems to
I have no idea what the peer or user group is for those involved in this accident but it certainly seems like a good idea figure that out and try to build a trust relationship. That's where I think pro riders and manufactures and film/content makers could really step up and be the public face of the message.
The gray beard forecasters and instructors and experienced mentor types and ski patrols and the like have kinda done their thing for a few decades. They (we?), despite best intentions, probably come off like a bunch of Safety Bobs. I think the message is good (generally) but I think the delivery needs a refresh.
The initial reactions to the Mill Creek and Silverton/Ophir accidents were akin to, "WTF were those idiots even doing there"?
As more information was available people began to realize, "hey, that could have been me".
I think the point FG is trying to make is that maybe it would be best to wait for the full report before you call people names, especially when one just died.
It’s an anecdote. I changed my behavior because of negative consequences and feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by BFD
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I had a good mentor starting out, patrol and snow safety director. He was crusty and harsh but the message got through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
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People die all the time doing stupid shit. We have an entire thread devoted to it. Does being a snow slider give people a pass?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
I never thought “That could have been me” after the Wilson’s Glade avalanche. I thought the ridge line was the obvious safer ascent. I was conditioned to not skin the slopes I ski and not to expose myself to hazards on the ascent if avoidable, and if there is unavoidable hazard always expose only one at a time.
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Stupid is as stupid does.
I have no problem telling people that they’re being stupid to their face.
I don't know what to tell ya,
That's fine. If it gives you a warm and fuzzy, good for you. But that approach will do little to get someone to listen to well intentioned advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by m2711c
Besides, the person is already dead so your message falls on dead ears.
Just like this one, or so it would seem. Carry on then.
I'm another guy with the same opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
I would argue guys are doing neither of the above. I think you're hiding in what you think is a quiet corner of the internet talking shit about someone because they're from a user group you don't understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by m2711c
But hey, if you're as tough as you say you are, and you really think your tough love message is vital to get out there thenhere's his IG, and here's a post about his death that has a huge audience from his user group. Why don't you sack up and take your message there?
Thanks for inspiring me to do the same. All you stupid fucks calling people names are being stupid and you need to knock it off. It's stupid because it's ineffective at achieving the exact thing you claim to want, which is effective communication.Quote:
Originally Posted by m2711c
I could lay out the case that accident reconstruction and root cause analysis have been practiced and studied for decades. And in that context it's been proven time and again that keeping the questions clinical and not assigning blame while investigating is vital to getting real answers as to how and why people make the decisions they do.
I mean, I could do that, but now that I've called you a bunch of names all you morons are just defensive about your own stupidity and you wouldn't listen anyway, so why bother?
It’s not about being a badass, it’s about self awareness and knowing you can’t outwit the snow and terrain.Quote:
Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive
This is a sub forum about avalanches. I’m not an Instagram or social media person other than TGR.
It’s tragic this guy died, doesn’t matter if it was stupidity or ignorance. People need to know that it was a bad decision.
I’ve worked and played in high risk environments my entire adult life, mitigating risk is what’s important, not accepting it. No amount of vibes are going to make people feel okay with these accidents.
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Agreed
Sure. Just like Foggy, I agree with your nuanced perspective on this. But your nuanced perspective isn't being called out. It's the tone of responses on page 1, and how it turned into a circle jerk of ripping on this kid for making a mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
By definition, isn't the vast majority -- if not every -- avalanche accident discussed in here the result of a bad decision? Whether you want to call some stupid and perhaps see others as a mistake you might have made, they were all bad decisions with the benefit of hindsight. And regardless of whether you have deemed them "stupid" or "a mistake I might have made so one I should try and learn from", I assure you that everyone -- and especially the friends and family of the deceased -- know that it was a bad decision. You pointing that out isn't really teaching anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
I find that if an accident is caused by snowboarder this forum usually is harsher than normal. Just an observation.
Oh, come on now.... So this is really just boarder bias?
I have been struggling to understand why so many professionals have been pulling their hair out trying to get messages across through words and media, and I think I have found one that has popped up a few times this winter already:
Make that part of Avi 1.Quote:
McKelvey however was determined to have been buried under 10 to 12 feet of snow
It might be why some people go right to slamming them. Psychological thing but just an observation. We all have some kind of bias.Quote:
Originally Posted by m2711c
Boarder bias exists here (more in the codgers who think we sideslip everything), but It seems we're trying to rank fuckups that result in fatalities. Why did this rider earn the "stupid" , "ignorant" and "Darwin award" badge? Would you say the same thing to those in Millcreek and Ophir Pass?
We've seen some massive slides lately...20' crowns on Trelease, 3/4 mile propagation in the Never Summers, entire faces ripping out in the San Juans, this thing is tiny in comparison. Not exactly center punching a big line if you get my drift. I guess this is a strong reminder than even placid looking slopes or micro terrain features can kill.
Vibes to those who knew him - RIP.
Just found out he was a friend of some acquaintances I took a trip with a while back. Another hit close to home. I think I might be ready for summer soon.
Also, boarder bias, ha. Anyone that is willing to admit that should take a few laps with some of my boarder friends.
It's just a few. It never even occurred to me that it was a rider. And, yes, there are many many that fucking tear me a new asshole in terms of skills of all kinds.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowaddict91
Better view of the scene. I thought I was looking at a kicker above the fracture, now not so sure.
https://www.jhavalanche.org/eventMap.php
not sure why it didn't link but click on event detail. they also list the cause of death as trauma
The shit talking about the victim is pretty low imo. No....it's super low. If the the few of those posting the harsh, judgmental comments would actually say those same words to the victims family and friends you are indeed a shit bag.
People make mistakes, every single one of us. Try to remain humble and compassionate eh? This 31 year old was buried 12 feet deep and was very likely not lucky enough to have the lights go out quickly from trauma.
One of my best riding buddies from my JXN days was very close with the victim btw. I don't know much about Michael other than he dripped more talent then all of us posting in this thread combined. I imagine he was a sponsored rider and I do have to wonder if the pressure to create marketable content played a part in this accident. Maybe it did maybe it didn't. I have no idea but that aspect must have an influence on some peoples decisions while riding/skiing.
That is all.
It was a booter. I hadn't read the report before my last post and hopefully he didn't suffer. With these deep burials I feel like a trauma COD is sort of a relief to hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by whipski
Looks like they put in a bootpack and someone boarded the line before jumping and it didn't fail. Maybe that fact made them think it was fine, although I'm speculating on when the bootpack and turns were put in.
I read that a defibrillator was on scene very quickly and revived him (S+R were practicing nearby when it happened). He died in the plane from JH to somewhere in Idaho, after being heli'd to the airport. So he didn't die in the avie.
MagUni: "People need to know that it was a bad decision.", thanks for this sage insight, go post on his IG page if you really care that his friends know, like kathleen says. Check your ego.