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Wow. Buried 3.2 meters deep. And a live recovery. Mad props to the Swiss and the use of RECCO
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props to the furkid, too!
recovered alive after 40 min burial is more than a little lucky... happy to see this outcome for a change
Not 40 minutes, he was buried 1 hour and 10 minutes! Headline fail by unofficial.
Cool, so guess I don't need a beacon after all.
Mammut pulse for sale,
whoops wrong thread.
How is his survival even possible? Is it like when someone falls into an icy lake and their body shuts down?
That's a lot of weight too. I just don't get it. A magical mystery air pocket?
I always ski with avalanche bacon...it helps the rescue dogs find me faster.
Wait I thought it was to pick up more chicks at apres. Guess I’m doing it wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by reckless toboggan
That is incredible — Possibly longest survival of a victim after a complete burial?
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I’ve only ever practiced with the Recco receiver, and never with a very deep target, so I’m pretty blown away by the strong work on the part of the rescue team. 3.2 meters down ffs!
I'd say this rescue was more a function of the victim being able to live for 1:10 while buried than it is about the RECCO being that effective. Either way, glad for the positive outcome.
Well, mad props for the guy being able to live under 10 feet of debris, but I still think it was strong work on the part of the rescue team. I’d be interested to try to pinpoint a 10 ft deep burial with a recco...for practice of course. Those things are harder to use than beacons IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by shredgnar
Agreed, I've played with them a few times and never found them to be great at pin pointing. And a 10 ft deep burial would definitely want some accuracy to avoid moving more snow than needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper
There are many documented cases of people living at 1hr plus burial. The chances are just low.
There are many documented cases of people living at 3m. The chances are just very low.
What has never been documented before is using a RECCO as the primary location method for a buried victim who survived.
So this survival is a testament to rapid deployment and competent use of the RECCO by the rescuers, good shoveling, and luck.
I think they are great for pinpointing if you use the right technique. An expert trainer had to show me. It wasn't what I had learned in the past. Although I admit I haven't tried against a 3.2m target... but RECCO is so directional it should work well. I'll have to give a deep target a try.Quote:
Originally Posted by shredgnar
Manuel G taught me, so I guess I’ve got that going for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
His instruction is always so memorable and high quality. While I have "rotate the beacon" in his voice stuck in my head, I'm now just imagining him yelling "rotate the RECCO! but only a LITTLE!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper
Dale A taught me quite a bit about Recco.
That would be awesome! I’ve only ever talked with him on the phone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
You know what? I bet some of the folks following this thread would enjoy the Silverton Mountain Medicine Symposium. I went last year, it was great!
I should PSA it, but here:
http://mtnmedsymposium.org
I thought that there had been live saves w/ RECCO in Europe before, just not the US, but I could be mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
I'm not advocating against RECCO, but it will continue to be a body recovery tool, with a few lucky live saves that get a lot of press, and sells more RECCO tags and units. It really is just a matter of time before someone is saved by a RECCO in the US. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while but this will continue to be a statistical anomaly.
I do feel like a probe line or dog could have found the victim just as fast with the same amount of luck, but they throw all the resources at the accident and whatever works works. This time it ended up being the RECCO, so it will take the glory. I guess probes and dogs don't have the marketing team that RECCO does.
I wonder what the average time it takes for a RECCO to arrive on scene, and be put into use is. Obviously IB vs OB, even w/ a helicopter dangling one over the site, it ain't going to be in the 30 minute window very often. Seems like a stat that Summit would know.
This might deserve it's own thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper
Glad to hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by F#*k You Cat
How likely would have the outcome been the same if the avy dog hadn’t narrowed the search area?
EDIT: I didn't notice shredgnar's post before mine. I'm also wondering the same. Seems like the take away from this is lots of people will get the wrong impression of their safety if they have a Recco with articles like this.
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Slidewright.com
Probably as good a place as any to throw in my $.02 about CRAD https://www.c-rad.org/about-us/about-c-rad/ and the the fact while companion rescue is still your best bet, this part of Colorado does now have a legitimate helicopter based avalanche response. To me, this puts a heightened value in establishing communications with 911.
Right. I’ll try to remember when the 2019 info is out. A friend of mine is the EMS director in Silverton so I get the info ASAP.Quote:
Originally Posted by hafjell
So are you saying that C-RAD is not a legitimate helicopter based avalanche response? I don't get it. From what I know of the program, and having seen it in action a few times, I think it is pretty effective. I was even a burial victim in a mock scenario for them once. They also use RECCO, and have one they dangle from the heli.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
But if your point is that it should be more professional, watch "The Horn" on Netflix and you'll see how it is done in Europe and decide for yourself which is better. For profit vs volunteer. It is interesting, that in the US, land of capitalism, our rescue forces are usually not for profit. Pretty badass that they fly around with paramedics and full on emergency docs rather than a few WEMT's.
That's a total fuck up by me let me edit.Quote:
Originally Posted by shredgnar
Haha, gotcha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
To Foggy's point about an early call to 911, yea key in CO and other areas (Wasatch, Jackson, etc). Also we try to get people to think "do you have phone service where you are, but won't if you descend 300m to the debris field? Call 911, but bare details and get to the rescue.
C-RAD works closely with Flight For Life Colorado's Rapid Avalanche Deployment program and is composed of dog handlers and avalanche rescue technicians affiliated with local Ski Patrol and SAR teams.
Each morning these entities report to dispatch the availability of dog/tech teams so that if an avalanche call comes in, a decision can quickly be made about what team is closest to the closest available helicopter, with Lifeguard 2 based in Frisco being the primary much of the time, although obviously the FFL RAD can use the helicopters out of Colorado Springs, Denver, Durango, or Pueblo based on the call location, weather, and ship availability.
The helo carries a RECCO and the deployment teams carry their own RECCO. This allows potential deployment of a rescue tech with a RECCO and a dog handler to an avalanche scene in as short as 30 minutes (less in certain circumstances) depending. As soon as the first team is dropped, the helicopter will be able to bring in more dog/tech teams from other ski areas or from the local SAR group, as well as advanced medical care equipment if locally available. The handler/tech are going to both be at least EMT. Summit County has mechanical CPR devices, oxygen powered ventilators, powered hypothermia blankets, and Summit/Eagle/Grand/Clear Creek + many counties have SAR paramedics. In some instances the flight nurse/medic may be placed on the scene.
It is an excellent example of multi-agency cooperation involving non-profits (FFL), paid ski area employees, and volunteer rescue/patrol of C-RAD / SAR.
I would disagree strongly that dogs don't have at least as much PR as RECCO. Nobody is doing PR for probelines... for good reason. Nobody likes problines!
Summit, I was hoping you would chime in. For me, the capabilities of C-RAD have changed my personal flow chart during winter backcountry emergencies.
Do you have any protocols on how you communicate via txt (cell or satellite) with counties that claim to have txt enabled 911?
So the moral of the story is that if you are going to get buried in CO, do it on Peak 1 or Sky chutes. At least the Ten Mile. Closest proximity to FFL and potential C-RAD from Copper or Breck.
And Summit is right, the dogs do have a decent PR team although not for profit AFAIK. But it don't take much to promote some cute puppies running around in the snow, kinda sells itself.
"We are all out of T shirts" is not good PR. We need more flat brims.Quote:
dogs do have a decent PR team
So, bacon in pockets>RECCO....
That is an awesome question. I don't know. I know Summit 911 has it. I'll ask. I'd definitely say you'd want to know how to quickly have an app move your GPS coordinates into a txt msg whether you are using Apple Maps, Google Maps, Gaia, Viewranger, or what I use when just sending coordinates: GPS Status Toolbox (pro-tip DD MM.MM WGS84 is what FFL uses, saves conversion).Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
I do know that for sat communicators like InReach and SPOT, the txt goes to the contracted rescue communication center (eg GEOS) who then communicates with local dispatch.
All of that is what I'm getting at. With an InReach, are you better off txting local dispach directly and/or activating the SOS. i.e. "There has been an avalanche at Berthoud Pass on Hidden Knoll. The GPS coordinates are XXXX. There is one confirmed burrial. We are in the process of companion rescue. My name is YYYYY"Quote:
the txt goes to the contracted rescue communication center
Those type of questions.
The newer R9 Recco units work pretty well. If you've only fiddled with older units you owe it to yourself to try out the new ones.
Wasatch Backcountry Rescue deploys a 2 man team with a dog, beacons, and a recco as their 'avalanche package'
Most ski resorts will wait until they have a definite location for an in-bounds/side country slide to bring in the recco unit because they only have a few on hand (vs. beacons) and don't want the unit to get below the accident site.
We also have a LRR and recco search unit that can be deployed from a helicopter in Utah.
Forgot to mention FFL Colorado can deploy a helicopter beacon:
Attachment 266872
Manuel G holding the beacon
Internal RECCO Rescue Partner Information.
A person buried in an avalanche was rescued alive on Monday morning January 14 in Jaun, Switzerland
with the help of avalanche dog and RECCO Rescue System.
According to Linus Buchs, in charge of the rescue operation and former Head of Rescue in Jaun, three
skiers were skiing in a steep off-piste area when an avalanche occurred. A 22-year-old man got buried
completely in a 50 meters wide and 250 meters long avalanche. The avalanche risk was 3 (considerable)
out of 5 on the European Avalanche Danger Scale, and none of the skiers was equipped with transceiver,
airbag, shovel or probe.
The two friends immediately called for emergency assistance and a rescue team from REGA came by
helicopter. On their way they picked up the rescuer in Jaun who also brought his avalanche dog. The
flight took approximately 10 minutes. A handheld R9 RECCO detector was already on board the
helicopter since all REGA rescue helicopters in Switzerland are permanently carrying this equipment.
Due to the steep terrain and poor visibility the helicopter had to land around 200m away from the
avalanche. The rescuer took his dog and the RECCO detector and went down the steep craves to start
searching.
One of the friends of the buried skier turned out to be trained in rescue and searching with RECCO and
started to search with the detector whereas the rescuer started to search with his dog. After 10 minutes,
the avalanche dog marked a zone, but the probing was unsuccessful. In the meantime the brother of the
rescuer who is the technical manager of Jaun ski area arrived to the site and took over the RECCO search.
He immediately got a strong signal with the RECCO detector and was able to pinpoint the victim around
7m from where the dog had marked. After digging and further probing the position of the victim was
confirmed with a probe on a depth of 3.20 meters.
After another 40 minutes of digging, the victim was found alive and conscious. The total burial time was
about 1 hour 10 min. The young man was transported to the hospital where he recovered.
He was wearing an Arc’teryx jacket with an integrated RECCO reflector in the neck collar.
Some notes:
*Before starting to search with the RECCO detector, the rescuers removed all their electronic equipment.
After receiving a strong signal, they placed the detector directly on the snow, facing downwards, and
moved away. They wanted to be sure that the signal was not caused by themselves. When they
continued to hear a clear signal, they started to shovel snow until they hit the body with a probe.
*The 22-year-old victim was a local guy from the area.
*The REGA 14 base in Zweisimmen lies around 10km straight line to the site. Due to the weather
conditions they could not fly straight over Jaun’s pass but had to choose another route which took a
couple of minutes longer.
*Last summer, RECCO’s main instructor in Switzerland, Dominik Hunziker, had changed the detector
based at REGA 14 since it had a loose speaker and did not work properly.
It is a good thing they check and test their detectors continuously.
This highlights a seemingly obvious challenge with Recco reflectors: no off switch during search mode. Are patrollers not allowed to wear them, I assume? Kind of a paradoxical system.Quote:
Originally Posted by sfotex
They have elastic arm bands and such to "Cloak" or block their reflectors from interfering. Also usually ditch cell phone, keys, and any other electronics in a safe bag or away from the site.Quote:
Originally Posted by jono