Not technically a "Slide Zone" incident but seemed to fit here best and touches on a lot of common themes (expert halo, adapting to changing conditions, reliance on technology).
https://www.outsideonline.com/232904...route-disaster
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Not technically a "Slide Zone" incident but seemed to fit here best and touches on a lot of common themes (expert halo, adapting to changing conditions, reliance on technology).
https://www.outsideonline.com/232904...route-disaster
Very sobering, but good read and reminder. Thanks for sharing.
Good read. Thanks for posting. Lots of things to think about as I'm currently trying to line up such a trip this year.
Fascinating story. Hard to believe a guide in the Alps wouldn't have redundancy built into his navigation systems when setting out on a day with a sketchy weather forecast like that. My Garmin e-Trex 20 is so bomber I would never leave it at home, even though I do use my phone too. Phones are just...delicate. Fickle. Not waterproof, and they don't do well in the cold. Plus they need charging (Garmin just needs a fresh set of batteries, easy to carry). If somebody had downloaded the GPX track of the winter route onto their Garmin, the whole thing could have turned out okay.
Anyway, nobody is immune to making errors in judgment, including me. RIP to those who lost their lives.
Good sobering read for all those touring in the mountains, including those who choose to be guided.
A good read and such a tragedy. Made me rethink my own decisions the last couple of years.
Yup. My exposure to guided trips is somewhat limited, mostly encountering guided parties while on self-guided trips. The handful of times I've been a client, I had maps and GPSr loaded with waypoints, was able to do my own navigation and always knew where I was on the map (which is how I roll in the mountains). Guides are nice because they have local knowledge re lines, loading, safe spots, etc., but I'm always equipped to get my own ass out of the wilderness irrespective of who leads the trip.Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahman
True. Shit happensQuote:
Originally Posted by yeahman
Copycat. http://www.spiegel.de/international/...a-1220184.html.
Better, original story.
I saw a incredible presentation from Swiss rescue team on the rescue effort... Imagine you have 14 hypothermic patients at 12000 feet and you don't know how long the weather will hold.
Sobering read.
Focusing on the GPS is a mistake. Going out or continuing in a whiteout relying on the GPS to guide you is foolish, like skiing sketchy terrain because you have a beacon and airbag. The priniciples of survival haven't changed because of tech--pay attention to the weather, bail if possible when conditions deteriorate, seek or make shelter before becoming exhausted and hypothermic. If you can't do a route without a GPS you shouldn't be doing it with it.
Well, the info in the article indicates that, in this case, they should have hunkered down before any party member got hypothermic. But I gotta push back on the idea of making exactly the same set of decisions with or with a GPSr in all cases. I've done numerous routes when a GPSr unit with stored waypoints allowed us to travel a known safe route in very bad viz or get to a known safe spot in very bad viz, when we would have been forced to hunker down had we been navigating only by a map and compass. An example that pops in my head is a glacier route we did a few years ago in pea soup fog. We followed waypoints I had plotted through a complex crevasse field to a key notch, which was access to mellower (non-glaciated) terrain and a sheltered camp. Without the GPSr and plotted waypoints, the only safe decision would have been to set up camp at 10AM in an weather-exposed spot at the base of the glacier. I can think of another half dozen times when a GPSr loaded with pre-plotted waypoints permitted reasonably safe travel to a superior camp, travel that would have been unduly safe with only a paper map and compass.Quote:
Originally Posted by old goat
Which unit are you using and do you recommend it?Quote:
Originally Posted by GeezerSteve
I've used 4 different Garmin models. I currently use a cheap, sturdy reliable unit. No map display. Gives me bearing and distance to waypoints. Very long battery life. I primarily rely on map & compass, supplement with GPSr to confirm position, get bearing/distance to key spots (pre-marked with waypoints) and occasionally mark a spot in the field with a waypoint. I set up my GPSr preference and pages to supplement map & compass navigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by hafjell
I could work with pretty much any GPSr unit. The key is prior planning, i.e., mapping waypoints via thorough research, i.e., 7.5' USGS mapping, info from prior parties, satellite imagery and, at times, third party mapping (e.g., MapBuilder wiki mapping, redline maps from reliable parties).
My personal rule is to always know where I am on the map. With good viz, I can usually do that with map & compass by taking bearings to landmarks. In complex terrain or bad weather, I confirm with GPSr per distance/bearing to set waypoints.
Re routefinding (distinct from navigation) I use terrain handrails when possible.
I didn't say don't carry a GPS or plan a route on GPS. Given the unpredictability of mountain weather--especially fog--it makes sense to do that, but my opinion remains the same re setting out into bad visibility or bad weather relying on the GPS to get you there. In the Haute Route disaster it seems to me that the guide didn't bother checking on current conditions and ignored an impending storm because he assumed GPS would get him through.
A big danger in traveling in the mountains is feeling like you have to stick to an itinerary, regardless of conditions. Things like investment--emotional and financial--in a particular trip or goal, hut reservations, and return flights can unduly influence decisions.
Also, successfully navigating crevassed glacial terrain by GPS in zero visibility is like skiing in high avy conditions and not triggering an avalanche. Sooner or later your luck runs out.
Speculating another's subjective thoughts is always guesswork and IME usually incorrect. I'll agree that the circumstances seem to have strongly indicated staying put at the prior night's hut. But we will never know why he pushed on. Maybe he had no information or bad information re the weather forecast. Maybe it was nothing more that a case of hubris, an all too common malady of professional guides.Quote:
Originally Posted by old goat
I'm pretty sure I regularly do longer routes than the typical TGR mag. It's not unusual to set out on an 8-day trip with favorable forecast, then get hit with a nasty weather event. IME, assuming proper route planning, it's often safer to move to a sheltered camp via GPSr navigation than to hunker down in an exposed spot. Every circumstance is unique and thus defy fitting neatly into general rules of thumb re whether to hunker down or attempt to move to a safer place. It all starts with diligent route planning and working with best information. AFAICT, neither happened here.
all true. Although my last trip was 12 days--TMB. No GPS for that one but the trail is about feet deep and there's a sign every 5 feet. And people every 10.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeezerSteve
Research shows that using GPS makes people worse at navigating without one.
http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Oli...3892&mode=text
Have you read the study cited in that article? If you had, you'd know that the title of that article, and thus the text of your post, is deceptively vague.Quote:
Originally Posted by old goat
The practical application of the study is that primarily reliance on GPS, e.g., navigating by following a GPSr prompt arrow, conflicts with the brain's development of spatial awareness and thus interferes with using terrain cues for navigation. Of fucking course that's not good. Duh. Fucking duh. Let me say it again: fucking fucking duh duh.
As I've said numerous times on this forum, I navigate primarily by map & compass, using GPS to occasionally confirm position or to get bearing and distance to a waypoint (usually stored before the trip, but sometimes marked in the field on an out & back route). IME, everyone should learn to navigate this way.
It's fucking stupid to suggest that one who has mastered map & compass skills and navigates primarily by map & compass is handicapped by supplementing navigation with a GPSr, especially in complex terrain or bad weather. That study does NOT support such a stupid and irresponsible claim. The issue is how a GPSr is used in the field. If it's used properly to supplement map & compass navigation, a GPSr will make you a better (i.e., faster, safter) navigator in complex terrain and/or bad weather. For starters, I always advise against use of a GPSr with a screen map.
I am from the AKPM school of spelling. But really does the sacbee even bother to proofread an article?
Do you recommend a good resource for people just starting? Buy a compass and map and start walking around in the woods? A book? Website?Quote:
Originally Posted by GeezerSteve
Freedom of the Hills is a good startQuote:
Originally Posted by hafjell
Thanks. Great resource. Anything more specific?Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenboy
My uncle was a sailor, and although i never discussed it with him, I have a very good sense of direction
Please, I'm not trying to tell you to stop using a GPS. I posted that for amusement value, only. Although it is true that using a GPS exclusively to navigate happens all the time driving in unfamiliar places and definitely destroys spatial awareness. A map and compass is preferable--I just got a car with compass readings on the rear view, which is nice--but it's hard to see out the windshield when you're holding a map up, and on your lap is almost as bad. If I have an unfamiliar route to navigate I usually look it up ahead of time on a map site to get an overall picture of the route so I don't feel like a total doofus.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeezerSteve
This read returned me to my senses.
^^Agree. Bump for good info.
I find it difficult to recognize the moment when tough going becomes an emergency situation. If pressing on for another hour means reaching safety, then surely that's right. OTOH if pressing on for an hour means needing another hour... Then, um, I should have worked on shelter an hour ago. With a warm bed and a hot meal in the hut (guaranteed safety), it would be difficult and questionable decision to shelter in place (marginal survival situation).
When 10 experienced mountaineers, joined by 4 others, get some of themselves killed, I find it hard to point fingers. It's certainly good to ask questions and try to learn. In the end though, if we become a bit safer, we humans will simply push the boundaries a bit further. (100 years ago - Who would get in a airplane.. that's crazy. 50 years ago - Who would jump out of an airplane.. that's crazy. Now we're at who would jump off a cliff in a wingsuit.. that's crazy). Hurray for human spirit! Also, Condolences to friends and relatives after sad events.
Sad deal. Reminds me so much of small plane crash debriefs. Always a chain of decisions that ultimately end up badly because the pilot presses on past the last exit strategy. As someone else said, this tragedy is likely entirely avoided with proper communication and a no-go decision or proper track for the winter route on the GPS. What a waste...RIP