I saw this on BVBS's FB page. Very informative read.
https://www.outsideonline.com/204033...-revolutionary
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I saw this on BVBS's FB page. Very informative read.
https://www.outsideonline.com/204033...-revolutionary
I thought this method was standard practice. It's what I was taught in both of my avalanche courses over the last ~6 years. Despite that, this seems like something I ought to practice with my buds in order to brush up and be sure everyone is on the same page as far as techniques go.
Bruce Edgerly and Dale Atkins first presented the strategic shoveling concept at ISSW 2006 in Telluride. I first heard about it at CSAW 2006. The information was widely disseminated over the next season among professionals and has been standard practice in avalanche rescue for some time with a few minor variations and improvements.
Apart from that... entertaining article that interviews many leading figures in the avalanche rescue world. I've heard Genshwein speak on 5 occasions and taken field training from him (imagine a short angry sounding person with a Swiss German accent screaming at you to dig faster). He is quite the character. Almost always learn something, frequently agree with him, often change my practice... but sometimes not.
Great article.
I took Avy I in January or February 2006. This shoveling method was not taught then (which makes sense given Summit's timeline), but I've certainly read about it since. Need to practice it.
I'm happy with my G3 Avitech shovel, but was thinking about picking up another to have a loaner/car shovel. I assume that shovels with a hoe mode really help with the v-conveyor method, right?
You know this is a good question that someone just asked last class when I was teaching strategic shoveling. I thought about it for a moment and said something along the lines of: in theory it would be great but in reality you are constantly rotating your position in the digging formation and you don't have time to switch between hoe and normal shovel. Now maybe you could switch your shovel too but I think that is too much to think about unless you actually practice it regularly with your team of bc partners. I think that the shovel in normal mode is more than sufficient for the second and third tiers of the digging formation to paddles the snow back. The slowdown is always at the front where people are chopping into the debris. So, I don't know why Ortovox has the hoe option except for digging snow caves (I used to have an Ortovox a long time ago).Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
I'd rather have a D handle.
Open to being convinced otherwise.
And I love my G3 Avitech. Many good shovels out there. Love BCA's offerings too.
You don't have to choose - the Ortovox Kodiak, BD Evac, and Mammut Alugator Guide all have both hoe mode and a D-handle.
In my incredibly informal and unscientific testing having the 2nd or 3rd rows operating in hoe mode does feel a little easier and faster, thus saving a bit of energy. Although, as you note, the front people still should be in standard mode (chopping blocks is possible in hoe mode, but regular mode is better). I didn't find switching out shovels to be too complicated even when practicing with groups of people I didn't know or have never practiced with before (although they were all highly experienced people).
I totally agree that a regular shovel is completely adequate and that I'd prioritize D-handle over hoe mode. But, I do think the hoe is worthy of consideration for an experienced backcountry user. Hell, I like having the hoe mode just because it makes digging snow pits faster.
Yeah. That point occurred to me too a couple weeks back. Good one.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalated
I'd be looking at the BD Evac 7 probably.
And, yeah, I wouldn't consider a shovel without a d-handle. I tend to get very cold hands sometimes, so I'm periodically wearing mittens. But d-handle is better even with fairly dextrous gloves.
I used one of those for the first time last weekend. Nice shovel.Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
regarding the team dig vs hoe mode...team members could drop the "hoe" as they change positions
(re: D handle: I like it for mittens too)
It would be nice if someone did another comprehensive shovel durability test. The one contained in TAR Feb 2009, p.28 is probably rather dated now.
The results were shocking, for me.
^^^ Indeed. I remember all the chatter when that piece came out. Was happy to find that I had one of the good ones.
Just noticed that issue covered Bela Vadasz's liftime achievement award. RIP. :frown:
Quote:
Originally Posted by covert
Hmmm, I might know some people that could get this done.
Thanks for starting this thread. Excavation and shoveling are vastly underappreciated in importance for successful full-burial rescues.
Good god. I guess it's time to throw out my BD shovel! Yikes!!Quote:
Originally Posted by covert
Shit! I carry the BD transfer 7. Haven't seen that test before.Quote:
Originally Posted by meter-man
After further research..., there's always a counterpoint.
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...82#post2479282
Don't throw out your T7 yet.
I still have my D3 for my little bitty BD Bandit inbounds pack. I'm not tossing it.
I will say that usually I haven't had to stomp on the shovel unless it is hours or days after the slide. If you have to stomp, it is going to be a long dig.
I've chopped in hard stuff with a BD, BCA, and SOS shovels, no problems. I do recall seeing some older Voile metal blades with the edge curled over from going at frozen debris.
My G3 is the stoutest I've had, and it handles the cement debris test for digging training holes better than I do ;)
I'd also like to see a new test. When that article came out it convinced me to ditch my BD and get a Tele Pro, even though I always had doubts about the methods of the test. I agree with many of the critiques in the responses. But why not use a shovel that didn't fail the test?Quote:
Originally Posted by covert
for a little cross-training, i will spend some time just shoveling snow from one place to another: lunch stop on a tour, xc break on the golf course, my back yard .......
I dug this hole yesterday to verify myself that Summit does not know what he is talking about regarding colorado snowpacks.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...pscpfmsadi.jpg
found this at the ground
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...pswylpucj7.jpg
I used a tele pro with a D handle owned this one for years. Done in the time it took my partners to eat their sandwiches.
hoes are for gardening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by covert
It was way too politically charged for us to continue doing gear reviews, we have a small base of advertisers and I decided to let other folks (Backcountry Mag, other publications) do gear testing and I also don't print much in the way of gear reviews unless it's a safety issue.
Not sure what BFD's beef is? You are butthurt about my comment about your old Voile? I mean if you weren't beating on refrozen debris what have you proven? I see why hms doesn't do gear reviews... you all fired up about the Voile comment... Manuel said people threatened to kill him over his article!
As the ski buyer for two years at marmot in the late 90's, I intentionally biased my stock to mostly be d-handle shovels with t6 heat treated blades. I always had other options in stock. The few of us made sure that other staff were in the know about strength properties and why it was important. We sold a ton of the superior shovels. I felt that it was a public service.
Wasn't/isn't voile's bread and butter in shovel sales?
Kill little ole' Manuel? Heartless fuckers. I'll do it if somebody wants to source the shovels. Pretty safe offer I figure ;)
Shovels that survive could be donated to the kids at the Silverton Winter Sports Club.
edit: I don't mean kill and bury Sr. Pulse
thats one good lookin' hole!Quote:
Originally Posted by BFD
Southern Mountains are definitely continental as always
Ah, now I get it. BFD, that was from a different thread in a different forum... why are you posting it in here? You are really that bothered that several people were trying to give you friendly, helpful information when you presented yourself as a visitor from AK asking basic questions about "extreme terrain" and getting well known place names wrong? So you post up a random cell phone pics from who knows where with no information and think it proves something? If you feel so defensive about a friendly post in which I said I don't know the current intricacies of NSJ, then I'll suggest that you take a close look at your potential human factors red flag right there.
This thread is about strategic shoveling and Slide Zone is not about that kind of ego. So take it back there if you must continue.
My ski partner here who I value highly knows I spend too much time here. He asked for me not to post any photos so I buried the photo here because I figured you would see it and few others. Plus it involved a bit of shoveling. This photo is taken in the south san juans somewhere . It is pretty evident you statement that the southern mountains are continental as always is not correct. I am new to an intermountain snowpack but I am pretty sure 10 ft deep with wet rounding facets at the ground would be an intermountain snowpack. If I am wrong I imagine one of the professionals here will set me straight. I was trying to generate a conversation about snowpacks in other areas. I think allot of good things have gone on in the snowpack this year that may be atypical of colorado. I read the avie reports and I do not see anyone mentioning obvious signs of stability such as settlement cones. Is that only happening here. I doubt it. As far as my statement on Telluride I was just trying to find out what is skiable when you are at 150% of snow water equivalence. maybe many things are skiable that are not often skiable this time of year. Not every backcountry skier is a 20 something know it all from summit county with an airbag. I imagine there are some very experienced people in Telluride who enjoy skiing those types of lines and know how to do it safely. I would not base my decision to ski something based on tracks but i could possibly make the decision to drive all the way down there to check things out based on that.
strategic shoveling, always daylight your hole.
If you ever quarry blocks for a snow shelter the Voile Tele Pro cuts excellent blocks. making it a great expedition shovel.
Maybe not relevant, but people that move material for hours on end (wildland firefighters) do not use shovels as the primary mover. They use hoe type devices because as far as my experience tells me it is bio-mechanically more efficient and easier on backs, etc.
Usually see a pulaski (narrow hoe) followed by wider hoe type implements.
Using a conventional shovel for long periods as a scraping tool to move material requires a specific motion that really relies on the knee as a leverage point with a long handle to be sustainable.
Hey BFD and Summit,
Can we take that shit to another thread or a PM. A thread on this years atypical pack in CO would actually be quite valuable, give 'er por favor. My apologies if it already exists. Yes, the Southern San Juans frequently have an intermountain snowpack, as do other micro-climates in CO. Yes, Summit has some deep knowledge of typical Colorado snowpack, and probably shovels too. Yes, this is a different year for much of Colorado. That's my 2 cents, but I'm choking on Japow so feel free to disregard.
I think you are at Tsugaike. Glad you are getting snow my sons head over next week, I really doubt he has much expertise on anything. I will say the topic of shoveling is something I am an expert on.
. An early March expedition to Mount St. Elias was stopped by snowfall of 25 to 30 feet in a ten-day period. Another party never made it out of Yakutat because of the weather and flew south after waiting for five days. After starting on March 3, Alaskans Dave McGiven, Leo Americus and John Bauman gave up on the east ridge of St. Elias when new snow turned the climb into an exercise of survival
Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/weath...#ixzz4WPVNylTI
stuck in yakutat, possibly my worst AK nightmare ......... hope the Glass Door is openQuote:
Originally Posted by BFD
My avy 1 instructor had this shovel and I used it as a comparison to my own. Huge difference having the hoe mode and the d handle. I'll probably get one and leave my other shovel in my car as a backup or for a friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
That's a useful data point. Thanks bud.
It may be wiser to equip your partner with the better shovel.Quote:
Originally Posted by TahoeJ
1. Stop harassing me via PM.Quote:
Originally posted by BFD
I really doubt he has much expertise on anything. I will say the topic of shoveling is something I am an expert on.
2. I've met many in this thread in person, but not you... I was never rude to you either... your anger is very confusing. Since you haven't taken this truly baffling insecure vendetta elsewhere: I have
Ha. Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmcrawfo
I posted before reading the flare up in this thread, and I'm honestly a little shocked anyone would dismiss the usefulness of the hoe mode. I will challenge anyone to a dig out contest using a hoe mode shovel vs one without it. And you have to dig a wide enough platform to actually extract a human, which is a huge part of the equation in this discussion. Clearing snow out of the way is just as important as digging into it.
I don't read the avy forum much as I have yet to begin the BC addiction, but I have started assembling gear for when it inevitably happens. I got the evac shovel and would chime in that hoe mode rocks... a lot. I've used it quite a bit, digging benches, pits, and playing with my kid on snow days. There's no question hoe mode moves snow very quickly. Engagement of the lock button is a bit finicky outside the living room, as I'm guessing can be the case with many BC shovels. The curved handle doesn't play nice with interior compartments of my pack (because the curve is perpendicular to the "D"). Ski-strapping it into the ice axe holster works well.
In rescue drills, spent good focus on shoveling, saw some shovels break... and played with hoe mode. I have to say, I do think hoe mode has a lot of utility. I'd stop short of saying is a requirement, but I think it has more utility than I think I gave credit for in my previous post.