worst thing since jetskis
http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/ac...=598&accfm=rep
Want to bet these double fatalities within 5 years?
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worst thing since jetskis
http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/ac...=598&accfm=rep
Want to bet these double fatalities within 5 years?
I think they look pretty fun. Much easier to get unstuck too.
RIP to the victims.
Snowbikes aren't the problem...
Agreed. Snowbikes aren't the problem. They're no more or less likely to trigger an avalanche than any other form of winter travel.
BCA just had a good editorial about this.
http://backcountryaccess.com/snowbik...anche-terrain/
It's written by a guy that sells snowbikes. I haven't ridden one, but he makes the point that unlike snowmobiles, which take years to learn to ride well enough to easily access avalanche terrain, any decent motorcycle guy can buy a snowbike kit and get into dangerous terrain pretty much the first day out. Much like fat skis have made steeper slopes more accessible to more people because it's easier to ski powder, snowbikes make steep slopes more accessible to more motorized users.
I think the avalanche education community has done a great job reaching out to human powered users, and of skiers and snowboarders that regularly travel in the backcountry, it seems that the majority are educated at least to AIARE L1 and are carrying appropriate rescue gear. When I go out to popular sled zones like Vail Pass, I'd say the percentage of motorized users that are carrying gear is more like 50%. I'd suspect that the majority of them do not have L1 or equivalent. Part of that is the culture (which seems to be improving), part of that is the shops and dealers (also seems to be improving), and part of that is a major lack of availability of L1 or L2 avalanche courses that are geared towards motorized users. Yes there are some, but they're still quite rare compared to L1 and L2 courses for skiers and snowboarders.
I think there is a greater cost in equipment and liability insurance to run a L1 or L2 on sleds and that is BEFORE you get into the total nightmare of FS permitting. There are also far fewer instructors who are good enough brappers to teach a motorized course.
Agreed on all counts. I see no reason that a motorized L1/L2 needs to be the same price as a non-motorized class though. A motorized user is already probably spending 5X as much money on their equipment, it doesn't seem unreasonable that they would spend more on a class as well.
USFS permitting is definitely a challenge but the classes do exist, so there's proof that it can be done.
And definitely not that many good brappers that are instructors, but that is changing I think. I've been seeing more and more guides, forecasters, etc. using sleds.
I agree with everything you had to say except for being more or less likely to kick off a slide. More weight = a bigger trigger = more likely to kick off a slide. Simple physics. They look like fun though, too bad people like the OP will use this as ammo to further their anti OHV agenda.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalated
Not necessarily. The physics isn't quite that simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by GPP33
Do elaborate.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
I actually have not seen any research on trigger size/mass, but there probably is some. Anyone got anything? My suspicion is that where exactly you hit a slope is far more important than mass. But equal trigger points would be dependent on mass. But that is conjecture.
Bingo. You'll have to hit the exact right spot with a feather but the sweet spot with an avy bomb is much bigger.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalated
A slightly less oversimplified version of the physics would include surface area on the snow, since deeper trigger points aren't as likely to be reached when the weight is spread out. (No experience with snowbikes but a local avy meeting/discussion included three or four users who pointed out that post holing after stepping off one indicates a similarity to skis. Roughly.)
In this case, that is one huge crown. Hard to imagine conditions would've been kinder to a skier except through dumb luck--or not being there.
Yeah the downforce may not be too much deferent than skis. Obviously heavier, but bigger footprint.
Gonna boil down to distance traveled. More distance = more risk.
Only thing I don't like about them, is the noise of the single 4 stroke motor. They are loud, even with stock exhaust.
Death numbers in the future? Who knows, far as I know this is only the 2nd snowbike death since they've become a thing.
May get a handful more dirt bikers into the sport, but really doubt the winter numbers will increase much, and the sled side will lose riders to the bikes.
Have you seen snowbike tracks in the backcountry? They penetrate even deeper than snow mobiles. The energy put into the snowpack from snowbikes and snowmobiles is higher than skier's unless a skier falls hard. I agree that if you hit the right spot it doesn't matter, but that spot is a whole lot bigger and deeper than a skier's.Quote:
Originally Posted by capulin overdrive
Dear captain obvious. Yes, skis weigh less than a snowbike, and a snowmobile weighs even more. But if used responsibly, they can all be safe. Many of these guys are just rallying them around far away from avy terrain and having a good ol' time doing it. To shit on a new user group because of a couple of avalanches is stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronWright
Making tracks would be more accurate.
Attachment 176759
Hey Captain Obvious, I'm not against snowbikes or snowmobiles, I was just pointing out that the potential to trigger an avalanche is higher with snowbike or snowmobile vs. a skier on a given slope. If the potential is there maybe neither should be there.Quote:
Originally Posted by shredgnar
Snow bikes have grown in popularity big time around here. Partly due to one of the manufactures are here. Just a couple years ago I would only see a few in the backs of trucks, now, damn near every third truck has them. They're also fun as fuck! I really wish more snow motor guys would get educated on backcountry travel and safety though. It's amazing how many don't dig pits or wear avy gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by capulin overdrive
The one element that seems likely to show a statistical difference compared with snowmobiles is that bikes side hill so much easier, which may attract riders to slopes snowmobiles would've gone around, and it sounds like it's easy to trench one. Again, no experience here, but that combination seems like it lets riders with less experience into a spot where they're basically cutting the slope.
Obviously educating new riders is important. In this area it sounds like the forest service guys running the avy forecast/education program are spending as much time with motorized as skiers, or maybe more. Like 2Funky said, could be different here. It's encouraging to see motorized guys showing up, though, and I know a number who carry gear and have at least some education on slides.
Yup, they for sure side hill easier than a sled.
Trench should be way less, for one they don't have the power, and two it's easier to feel the track spinning and turn out or down. Granted track length would/could come into play. I run a long track, and so far have never been stuck.
Sounds like you ride one? How do they do pulling a skier? I've been thinking about getting a bike for playing around in the summer and I've been thinking about getting a sled for BC access. Now I'm thinking one tool can do it all....Quote:
Originally Posted by capulin overdrive
This promo video highlights what you guys are talking about in regards to side hilling. In the wrong hands they could certainly be avalanche machines. Opening clip is pretty amazing, and scary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYCT...eHtCUB_d9R_CIw
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPP33
Could pull a skier in certain conditions. But to be honest I wouldn't even want to try. First I'd be worried about being hard on the bike clutch, and second the bikes are a handful on groomed trails all by themselves.
There's a guy up in Washington who carries skis on his bike tunnel, and skis that way. So as access to skin up like around CB, they would work great. For doing laps like VP or Montezuma, I'd rather see you have a sled.
Like they say about sleds, once you start with the intent of sled skiing, you'll slowly but surely start to spend more and more time on the sled. Same would go for the bike, as it's even more fun.
Sleds are getting to be pretty darned cheap. OEM's are blowing out new sleds cheaper than I'd want to sell my used sled for.
So guess what I'm saying is, unless you can find a deal on a used snowbike kit. Could buy a dirt bike, and used sled for what you'd get into a bike and new bike kit.
It would be for getting in deep and skinning up. Just looked at prices, I think I'll wait for the used market to pick up speed . $6k for the long track kit! Damn. I saw Polaris bought them, as they get more popular and Polaris starts applying their scale to the manufacturing operations I'd imagine prices will drop pretty heavily.Quote:
Originally Posted by capulin overdrive
Hadn't thought of those issues with motorized classes before. Definitely a problem given the number of accidents involving sleds, and unprepared sledders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
If there was demand there would be classes offered. The problem is that a larger % of motorized users just can't be bothered to take the time to get educated. Of course I have no numbers to back that up. I know when I got into BC it was me, a buddy, a sled and lots of stupid decisions. We wanted adventure, not to sit through a several week long class while our new toy collected dust in the garage. Same thing happens on Loveland Pass, easy access = people who aren't really thinking things through.
I'm just glad there's a general culture in the BC ski world that until you have the right gear that you're not welcome. Could be that it's not just as easy as writing a check and hitting the throttle so the people tend to less lazy. I hate to stereotype like that as I'm an OHV user myself but I see it in all aspects of that community.
Wimpy and slow. I'll keep my more capable snowmobile.
There is motorized on mountain classes, just not very many. And getting to where the dealers are having avi classes every fall at the dealerships, so it is getting better in the motorized world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simple
LOL, at your couch with a track!
We live in the heart of snowbike country it seems. They look fun and my friends who have ridden them seem to be converted. it could be a good way to access skiable terrain, they make a nice skin track. What worries me is how efficient they are and destroying a zone. They crisscross a ton instead of up and down and the can go virtually anywhere. During a hut trip second week in January 7 snow bikes rolled in and within 2 hrs completely decimated what would have been days of riding for us right in front of the hut. This area had never really been hit by sleds as it's just too demanding. One of the riders twisted his knee pretty bad so they had to leave but their plan was to be in the area all day. There is a new carnivore in town and hungry like you've never seen. I try to just accept the new reality that no zone is unreachable by machines anymore but it's tough.
Read the full report. The snowbike wasn't the issue.
Wilderness areas and national parks are a good place to start.Quote:
Originally Posted by chiller
Name a snowbikes that can do anything close to what the Axys can do in any situation. You can't. I thought you were smarter than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by capulin overdrive
I forget sometimes that most snowmo riders have no idea how to actually use their machines in the woods. If you are one of them I understand.
Pressure bulbs are complex. It would be a long post and it is some fairly advanced stuff parts of which I barely understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by GPP33
You will need institutional access to read this, but this is the latest and best research that I am aware of:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...65232X14001025
Basically they had sleds drive UPHILL over sensors and skiers ski downhill and TURN over senors buried at different depths and in different snow profiles to determine the amount and depth of static and dynamic stress so you can evaluate the "pressure bulb" vs the bridging index for the profile. The sled they used was an 800 with a 163 track. Not sure what they used for the skis (they didn't say). The results of their modeling showed variation and mostly they were concerned with modeling a BI to maintain a stability index for the mode of travel. In general, they suggest you need a larger BI for the snowmobile. But there is a lot of fudge factor I think when comparing a turning skier to a hill climbing sledder.
That article is Thulmert and Jamieson's latest progression of their previous work here:
http://schulich.ucalgary.ca/asarc/fi...k_Thumlert.pdf
Which is a more in depth version of their very informal and easy to read Bridge of Troubled Facets: http://schulich.ucalgary.ca/asarc/fi...facets%20w.pdf
And good background reading would be previous work by Schweitzer, particularly the first article that covers Bridging Indices:
http://www.ucalgary.ca/files/asarc/ProfileAnalysis.pdf
http://www.wsl.ch/info/mitarbeitende...aciol_1993.pdf
http://www.wsl.ch/info/mitarbeitende...iol32_2001.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by simple
You are right, most can't ride a sled, and I'm one of them. Partly because I'm old fat and lazy, but the excuse I use is I'm tall and having the tallest bars hit me at the knees just ain't worth the work of trying to ride the damned thing.
But you're wrong about bikes, long track bike ain't no joke. Would take a Burandt wannabe rider to keep up with an average bike rider in technical terrain.
Only thing bikes don't do good, is climb straight up in the deep.
I own a sled. Lots of my friends have them. Haven't been on a bike. Just my observation that they seem to be able to rip up into more avi prone terrain with greater ease than a sled. Has me thinking when prices come down they will increase the # of human triggered avi's dramatically.
I will second what chiller and 2funky have said. I live in the heart of the densest population of snow bikes in the world. They can (in general) get in to places that very few sleds can access. And with a much lower skill set required. With that said, they look like a ton of fun, and I wouldn't mind owning one with a nice MoPro rack on it!! I can't comment on the relative avy risk, but given the terrain they can access, I'd guess it could be higher in certain situations.
You've got that right. Snowbikes are the best time you can have on snow period. Now if we could just get 100Hp without a turbo kit full layovers would be in reach.Quote:
Originally Posted by bourbonisgood
One tool would be ideal, but a snowbike isn't it IMO. It takes more work than simply bolting on the TS kit to get them dialed...enough work that swapping from winter to summer mode and vice versa isn't really practical.Quote:
Originally Posted by GPP33
I'll play:Quote:
Originally Posted by simple
Ride between two trees spaced <30" apart. Can your Axys do that :D? I don't have a dog in this fight, but I also can't understand why people are so resistant to consider that new tech that does different things can be cool....
And they can't highmark, or win drags, or any of the redneck shit....for now, but the power is coming. My buddy is currently building a snowbike with a snowmobile engine and CVT. Should be a ripper.
Please ask him to make it a 2sQuote:
Originally Posted by North
I believe his donor motor is a 600 from a Ski-Doo...so yeah, 2-strokeQuote:
Originally Posted by Deebased