Any groups out there dedicated to preserving sled access skiing?

Backstory: Due to the Winter Wildland Alliance' court case, the Forest Service is going to have to come up with winter travel management plans. In many cases, this may mean a loss of skiing opportunities in areas with sled-access skiing. Locally, we're gearing up for a fight with a small handful of nordic skiers that are looking to take over one of our main access points.

We're not really aligned with the sledhead crowd. The areas that the nordic crowd are targeting are far more popular with skiers that are using sleds than with the sledheads. So while we will have some support from the local snowmobile club, we're a bit on our own with this one. I'm looking for any other groups, nationally or locally, that are also working to keep their access, but aren't 100% sledders. That might even mean companies that are pro sled-skiing and can help (i.e CFR?)

Thanks,

Try talking with Mike Sladdin at Powder to the People. He's very familiar with this type of situation.

http://www.powdertothepeople.org/

There is a Facebook group called Backcountry United that's basically dedicated to this idea, but I think it's more of a hobby page than anything organized at this point. That said, there may be someone there that knows something useful.

Also interested in this, this will be a problem in many places.

Fight the flight else it will end up like my neck of the woods. I have a little familiarity with your scene. Are you fighting to keep sleds allowed on FS roads? That's the thing that I think is BS. Snowmobiles should be allowed the same places motor vehicles are allowed in the summer.

Honestly, WWA would be my first stop. They're far more sophisticated and pragmatic than "NO SLEDS ANYWHERE! EVER!!" of the old BSA and I know they'd be stoked to work with you on solutions. Feel free to email me questions if you want.

The nordic skier group in CB that GB mentions is aligned with WWA...

All the more reason.

You want to talk to Hilary Eisen:
https://winterwildlands.org/about-wi...lliance/staff/

It's worth raising the issue with them at least.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

Fight the flight else it will end up like my neck of the woods. I have a little familiarity with your scene. Are you fighting to keep sleds allowed on FS roads? That's the thing that I think is BS. Snowmobiles should be allowed the same places motor vehicles are allowed in the summer.

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Yes, FS roads traveled by thousands of cars and other vehicles every summer, and the key to the castle, so to speak, of backcountry skiing in the area.

I will not be contacting the WWA. The group we are fighting is aligned with the WWA.

Let me guess. Sled access will be banned but at the same time this group will want sled grooming on the chosen area they are trying to "save"....

Obviously they want to groom it. I think some of our best support might come from people who xc ski out there but don't want to pay for it. Laurel loves going out slate, snowmobiles and all, because she can take Owen and it's free. Same goes for snowshoers, if the nordic center is grooming the road, they don't get to play.

If you listen closely you can hear the faint sounds of the world's smallest violin being played for you all...

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Originally Posted by Bunion

Let me guess. Sled access will be banned but at the same time this group will want sled grooming on the chosen area they are trying to "save"....

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100% truth according to sledneckers. Supposedly they want to run a diesel groomer at night!

Silent Tracks is supposed to be the group hooking up with WWA?


Anyways, I'm joining the Gunni Snotrackers and Goats. Don't know what else to do?


As far as companies helping, worth a try, but sounds like the companies don't really kick in for the regular sled cause.


FWIW, Skidoo has pushed the sled skiing angle a little, and now Polaris has a film out/coming out with Travis Rice and Dan Adams. So maybe some day they'll get on board?

Creating a unique group separate from snotrakers and certainly the Goats is a good move. Having a group that can be identified as courteous and cooperative will get you much further than the likes of temper tantrum Goats.

Good luck! I bet this has the potential to get very interesting since CB is such a small community.

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Originally Posted by adrenalated

Also interested in this, this will be a problem in many places.

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Just waiting for this (and WWA) to rear it's ugly little head around our parts as well.
We have already seen some regionally driven activity, though it turned out is was a small group of self interested locals trying to hoard their own little stash :nonono2:

To the OP...
Best of luck with your efforts.
Hopefully there is a collective voice that can raise up from this that will provide a reasonable counterpoint to WWA.

GB check in with Ochs as the Fat Bike crowd has some similar concerns with the Nordic folks approach to limiting access to some of those areas.

What if in the winter time:

Wilderness areas were opened up to sled usage from Dec 15th - March 15th. Maybe even limit it to areas that are a minimum of 5 air miles from a road. Have serious penalties for garbage, wildlife harassment, violating closures, etc. (impounded sled, jail time, etc.)

Areas within 2-3 miles of a paved, plowed road were closed to sled usage, other than road travel to access distant areas. Skiers would no longer need to compete with sleds for Alpine terrain near the car.

Once roads started to melt out normal motorized restrictions would resume.

Seems like a win for everybody.

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Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier

What if in the winter time:

Wilderness areas were opened up to sled usage from Dec 15th - March 15th. Maybe even limit it to areas that are a minimum of 5 air miles from a road. Have serious penalties for garbage, wildlife harassment, violating closures, etc. (impounded sled, jail time, etc.).

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I'd vote no on that one. Existing rules are not enforced and laughed at.

It's appropriate that some places be motor free.

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Skiers would no longer need to compete with sleds for Alpine terrain near the car.

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I really doubt opening up wilderness areas would encourage all the highmarkers to go there.


I'd still like to see more lifts and huts in general, though.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

I'd vote no on that one.

It's appropriate that some places be motor free.

I'd still like to see more lifts and huts in general, though.

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This (and I'm a sled owner...)

I would like to see better winter access by car to many wilderness areas though. Maybe the quiet lands people would stop trying to fucking close areas to sleds if they could access the plethora of non-motorized areas that already exist.

This is one thing the environMentalists don't get: lifts are an excellent, low impact way to provide access to mountains.

Lots of ski area access or mountain access roads could be replaced by lifts.

But the aesthetics are less than satisfying in having a straight line rather than a winding road despite the lower environmental impact.

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Originally Posted by adrenalated

Maybe the quiet lands people would stop trying to fucking close areas to sleds if they could access the plethora of non-motorized areas that already exist.

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That's what I'm getting at.

If you find such a group let us know. I'll sell organs to give them every bit of money I can.

Good luck. CA is going through the same thing on a much bigger scale. Based on public comments I've seen so far, I'm really not sure why someone would go to WWA for help. I've seen nothing here that genuinely helps access to skiing, just more snowmobile restrictions.

Thanks for all the info in this thread, I work with HBC in Hokkaido, Japan, and we are facing similar issues.

www.hokkaidobackcountryclub.com

Our club is a type of meeting place both online and off-line for Japan's growing backcountry ski, snowboard, snowmobile, snowcat and Heli community.

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Originally Posted by thommy21

GB check in with Ochs as the Fat Bike crowd has some similar concerns with the Nordic folks approach to limiting access to some of those areas.

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Oh yeah, they're going to be part of our process for sure since the nordic center hates them almost as much as snowmobiles. Website, FB page should be up soon. A lawyer and accountant have offered their services for free, and we're probably going to go the 501(c)3 route. We're in this for the long haul.

Thanks for the support, everyone.

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Originally Posted by adrenalated

This (and I'm a sled owner...)

I would like to see better winter access by car to many wilderness areas though. Maybe the quiet lands people would stop trying to fucking close areas to sleds if they could access the plethora of non-motorized areas that already exist.

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Finding places that could even be kept open would be tough, but maybe working on the ones that could would be a start. And somewhere along the way, the non-motorized users should have to pony up some money for parking or plowing. Instead of leaching off the sledders.

There's a reason so many passes are closed in the winter.


Sledders would and should do their sport a favor and not be Harley Fags! Love sleds, but not a fan of loud cans, and even though I want one, holly fucking hell on a straight piped 2 stroke turbo.

so how do you distinguish between the "responsible" sled access skier who uses a snowed-in summer road to access the goods & park at the bottom, versus the lazy cunt who sleds in to the skiing and then uses that sled to climb up and ghost ride down for each of his noisy pussy laps?

Fuck that latter type, and if you sled skiers can't self police enough to ostracize those douchebags & not have them instantly brought to mind whenever the subject of sled access skiing is raised, then I have no problem with curtailing all sled access.

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Originally Posted by TG

so how do you distinguish between the "responsible" sled access skier who uses a snowed-in summer road to access the goods & park at the bottom, versus the lazy cunt who sleds in to the skiing and then uses that sled to climb up and ghost ride down for each of his noisy pussy laps?

Fuck that latter type, and if you sled skiers can't self police enough to ostracize those douchebags & not have them instantly brought to mind whenever the subject of sled access skiing is raised, then I have no problem with curtailing all sled access.

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Shouldn't have to distinguish between the types of sled skiers! Terrain does that for us. Who are you to decide what's responsible?

If you're skiing terrain that can be ghost rode, then I'd say it's you who's masculinity should be called into question.


You one of the Silent Tracks jackasses who made a propaganda video crying about the sled skiing on Vail Pass?

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Originally Posted by SUPERIOR

Thanks for all the info in this thread, I work with HBC in Hokkaido, Japan, and we are facing similar issues.

www.hokkaidobackcountryclub.com

Our club is a type of meeting place both online and off-line for Japan's growing backcountry ski, snowboard, snowmobile, snowcat and Heli community.

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I think you misunderstood what the OP was posting about. I believe he is trying to keep existing access to areas they already have for the purpose of recreation. You on the other hand are talking about screwing previous users for monetary gain.

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Originally Posted by TG

so how do you distinguish between the "responsible" sled access skier who uses a snowed-in summer road to access the goods & park at the bottom, versus the lazy cunt who sleds in to the skiing and then uses that sled to climb up and ghost ride down for each of his noisy pussy laps?

Fuck that latter type, and if you sled skiers can't self police enough to ostracize those douchebags & not have them instantly brought to mind whenever the subject of sled access skiing is raised, then I have no problem with curtailing all sled access.

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Youre a cunt, I would like to run you over. Thats all

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Originally Posted by capulin overdrive

You one of the Silent Tracks jackasses who made a propaganda video crying about the sled skiing on Vail Pass?

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I had to look that one up.

The winning still shot

https://www.tetongravity.com/images/...ner__forum.jpg


He needs to drop the bar risers.

So 2007.

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Originally Posted by goldenboy

Oh yeah, they're going to be part of our process for sure since the nordic center hates them almost as much as snowmobiles. Website, FB page should be up soon. A lawyer and accountant have offered their services for free, and we're probably going to go the 501(c)3 route. We're in this for the long haul.

Thanks for the support, everyone.

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When you get it set up you can count on my donation. It's a shame to see this elitist attitude making it all the way to CB. I live near Boulder so I'm used to it but it sucks to see the attitude spreading to the few gems left in Co.

Good luck in your fight.

Welcome to the party! The Gallatin NF started fucking us in 2005 and we are slated for our next boning here shortly as that travel plan will be revised. Don't worry though, the FS likes to make lots of rules and does not have money left over for enforcement. I feel for you guys down in CB, best of luck (seriously), trying to work out some sort of agreement with a bunch of kook organisations. Oh,and FUCK WWA!!!

Wow! I just re-read my own post, not helpful at all to OP, but I do feel a little better :)

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Originally Posted by goldenboy

I will not be contacting the WWA. The group we are fighting is aligned with the WWA.

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It might be worth a phone call or two to talk to the opposition and maybe even move WWA more towards your side of the issue. It probably won't work, but it certainly cannot hurt to have a conversation with those who are pushing rules against your interests. If they never hear from those opposed, they may believe there is no real opposition.

Good luck.

sharetheslate.com for anyone who wants to get involved.

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Originally Posted by goldenboy

sharetheslate.com for anyone who wants to get involved.

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Looking good man!

Good luck.

Become an expert at this really quickly and then I'll hire you as a consultant to come to another state. :D

Good start. Signed up and shared.

The whole user conflict argument is so played out and gets me so fired up. I've never met a motorized user who gets pissed at a hiker, it's almost always the other way around. Shouldn't the one who can't act like a grown up be the one who gets excluded? Come up with a valid reason already....

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Originally Posted by GPP33

Good start. Signed up and shared.

The whole user conflict argument is so played out and gets me so fired up. I've never met a motorized user who gets pissed at a hiker, it's almost always the other way around. Shouldn't the one who can't act like a grown up be the one who gets excluded? Come up with a valid reason already....

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The reason is simple- there are people who want to recreate without the noise and smell of motorized vehicles. There is a huge asymmetry in these approaches. For example- places with no restrictions and that are heavily used by snowmobiles are basically useless for people who ski tour that want either quiet or decent skiing. The opposite isn't true, except for the fact that high density non-motorized and motorized use could be a bit dangerous if speeds/high-marking are involved.

If this asymmetry isn't understood by someone on a 500b, 200hp machine capable of high speed, shouldn't they be excluded since they could put other users at risk? I've been in situations where I wasn't able to communicate with the person next to me with high-markers a 1/2-mile or so away. I think it boils down to - yes there should be places human powered only, how big and where, are the real questions. How much is enough etc. If someone wants to be completely away from the noise of snowmobiles (especially high marking sleds), you need a huge area. The sound probably travels at least 10 miles. Maybe this is an unreasonable expectation- yes or no?

Also non-motorized areas DON'T restrict access, only how. Likewise heavily used motorized areas don't restrict access, only how they might be experienced: I can enter a heavily used motorized area on foot, but it won't be the experience that I want, just like anyone can enter a non-motorized area but the experience might not be what they want. Not sure why this is hard to understand. I've also met many motorized users that get pissed at non-motorized users, but it's a bit irrelevant.

At over 180,000 acres, the Maroon Bells-Snowmass Wilderness area is huge and close by.