Freeride Systems outerwear

Seems like there should be a thread for these threads! MiCol's been cranking out stellar jackets and other gear for a bunch of years and supporting maggot-events and bringing general stoke, but apparently not everyone knows about the best jackets made in USA. And it looks like he's re-vamped the line a bit lately with a lot of light weight Neoshell options, so hopefully he'll fill us in on what's new.

http://www.freeridesystems.com/

https://www.tetongravity.com/images/...729__forum.jpg

My first experience with the Neoshell came thanks to his caption contest last year (above), and I think anyone who gets one of the new jackets in this stuff will be very impressed with how well it beads and breathes--especially when combined with the flow-through ventilation for which Freeride Systems' jackets have been known. The jacket above has a wider temp range than anything I've owned, which I credit to the breathability and the fact that it sheds water instantly on any surface steeper than what you see above--that pic was harder to get than it was to post!

Every feature on the Antero jackets seems completely thought out and tested, from the bomber zippers to the hood and cuffs. It's unusual not to see well-used maggot gear in Gear Swap, but in this case apparently none of us are parting with them, so that maggot discount looks pretty good!

Oh, if you're looking for the Sneffles hooded mid-layer, I think I just saw a L and XL on the site--awesome hoodie, I hope they make more!

Meh, I bought a jacket from their website at a good price. I jacket was fine and heavy duty. About a year later the zipper quit zipping, so I e-mailed them on repairing the zipper and a few weeks later I got a email with instructions on how to properly operate a zipper and that it was my fault the zipper would'nt operate properly and futhermore the jacket had not been washed prior to sending it to them. At least they offered to sell me another jacket at a "great" price. I declined and told them to throw it in the dumpster and I would chalk it up to lesson learned.

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Originally Posted by bushman

Meh, I bought a jacket from their website at a good price. I jacket was fine and heavy duty. About a year later the zipper quit zipping, so I e-mailed them on repairing the zipper and a few weeks later I got a email with instructions on how to properly operate a zipper and that it was my fault the zipper would'nt operate properly and futhermore the jacket had not been washed prior to sending it to them. At least they offered to sell me another jacket at a "great" price. I declined and told them to throw it in the dumpster and I would chalk it up to lesson learned.

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Rare I can put a screen name with purchase. I personally dealt with this issue and you know the details. Here are the details. You sent us a jacket that caused me to have to double bag it after opening due to heavy smoke, pet hair, and dirt. Literally made our entire office eyes water. You purchased during my pay a fourth on the 4th of july near the beginning of me making jackets. That means you paid maybe $60- $75 , I dont remember exactly but I can look it up if needed. None of my sewing people were willing to touch the jacket in that condition. No one was willing to wash it in their home machines and we were looking at sending someone to a commercial laundry to babysit the soiled jacket for several hours. The two way zipper was fouled because you did not operate properly. Not trying to dog you. its a simple fact that's how a two way zipper gets fouled. Before you sent it you were told we would replace zipper for free. Due to the terrible smell and dirt I offered you a brand new replacement for $60 or to send it back. It would have cost you about $30 to use some local seamstress in your area to fix. You balked and told us to pitch it in the garbage and you would be better served with your Mountain Hardware to walk or feed your dogs. I threw it away while it was still double bagged. We learned an important lesson...as much as we try , we cannot make everyone happy.

Mike is the man. I've fondled and worn several generations of his gear and I continue to be more and more impressed. As the years go on, the fit, finish and materials just continue to refine and it has been cool as hell to watch. I can't wait to see the new Antero and check out the fresh seam taping! The belts are awesome too- if you don't have a FS belt just get the hell out haha.

He's sent out free gear ever year for Ullrfest without us even asking too... The guy fkn rocks. There is no other way to put it. Dude is maggot to the core and I couldn't be happier for him that all the hard work is paying off.

I have no desire to air dirty laundry on your company or hurt your future sales. Like I said the jacket was fine, the zipper just sucked, and I wanted to see if you would fix it. Your company did'nt seem to want to fix it so I moved on. Your reply e-mail stated that the zippers fall under YKK anyway. Good enough," money over the dam" is what I replyed.

I was lucky enough to win a FS jacket last year and put it through the paces.

I'm impressed enough that I wish they made ski pants...

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Originally Posted by Peruvian

I'm impressed enough that I wish they made ski pants...

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FKNA this! The proto pics Mike posted last year have me waiting very patiently...hopefully soon!

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Originally Posted by bushman

I have no desire to air dirty laundry on your company or hurt your future sales. Like I said the jacket was fine, the zipper just sucked, and I wanted to see if you would fix it. Your company did'nt seem to want to fix it so I moved on. Your reply e-mail stated that the zippers fall under YKK anyway. Good enough," money over the dam" is what I replyed.

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I don't like leaving things like that situation was left. However, I am up against the wall when the situation was what it was. Your zipper would have been replaced free like we said, had the jacket not been in that condition. I don't think you were being that easy to work with. We will still make it right for you now, but telling me to pitch it in the garbage did not help. We are not VF Corp North Face but I really really try to offer the best customer service possible while operating on razor thin margins and consistently understaffed on the admin side. Anyone that has dealt with me or my company knows that we try to go above and beyond. This is the only instance in 5.5 years that ended like this that I know of. edit: That 2011ish fremont hoodless non seamtaped jacket cost us over $100 to make at the time

^thanks DW and Peruv

^ Pants , next year. I thought maybe this year, but I didnt like the outcome of the convertible bib nor the cuff fabric choice so I decided to hold off to get them to my liking and performance and not to launch this year.

I am not butthurt. Good luck.

Top notch gear and a no BS owner who stands behind his product, props Mike to you and your staff. 40+ days on mine with one self induced, mild tear (self repaired) that would have shredded any other jacket I've ever owned. Definitely looking forward to a pair of pants and one of the new Neo's this year. Buy with confidence mags!

I bought an antero 2 jacket, in white, season before last. Thing is bomber and well designed. Repels beer, whisky, tomato salsa and lift shieve spooge with nary a spot. In fact it repels everything but women. It is also warmer than a post menopausal woman, and drier than a nuns vagina (credit Joe strummer for the latter)

Like Peruvian and dutchman I wish Mike made bibs.

I'm working with Mike to do a polartec hoodie with a FKNA pocket logo .
Stoked about that hoodie. I got one and loved it so much I wore it all summer.
Mike has taken care of a lot of maggots a lot better than they've reciprocated his way.

Michael is a first class dick.

Oh, I mean, FKNA ;?)

Seriously, I'd wrap my baby in his shells and shut it up with a belt should I have that economic and romantic [mis]fortune.

Edit to add: If I was broken down in my truck with a kicking and screaming wife and child, the only 3 things I would take would be a FRS shell for the baby, tied into the back of the wife, with a belt to find a truck to help me tow the heep.

To make it clear. And the third thing would be faith that it would get the job done.

Just ordered up a mid-layer hoodie on sale from FRS. The Sneffels - $55. http://www.freeridesystems.com/produ...oodie-midlayer

Super psyched to try er out, and happy to be supporting a mag project. Thanks MiCol!

Yep just ordered a yellow bross, stoked too. Shell might be next, are there some tech docs on the neoshell, or comparisons to other shell fabrics?

It's Polartec; their explanation is here: http://www.polartec.com/product/polartec-neoshell

Subjectively, it works better than other membrane fabrics at sucking out sweat and it actually doesn't block wind as completely, either. Obviously a slight adjustment in layering for high winds fixes any downside there, but I noticed right away that even with thinner layers I was actually still more comfortable than usual as the wind kicked up, I think because no sweat=no clammy cold. Hard to be precise about that, but like I mentioned, it is comfortable over a wider range of temps. I'm going to treat it pretty carefully and hope it lasts forever, but so far so good.

Neoshell is the absolute tits. Best waterproof/breathable membrane on the market, hands down. Polartec claims it's 100% perfectly waterproof, but in my experience (3 different neoshell jackets worn in every season for multiple sports), it will let some moisture through in a heavy deluge or prolonged contact with heavy wet snow, however the breathability is off the charts. Many Neoshell jackets don't even bother with pit zips cause they're not necessary. That's something no Gore-Tex product (any of them) can manage.

I tested a prototype Millet jacket back in Feb using Gore's ProShell intended for retail release this coming season (so the latest and greatest they had to offer) on a 6 hr tour in RMNP and it was like wearing a plastic garbage bag compared to anything in Neoshell. Gore is just way behind the ball in innovation right now and riding their brand recognition. IMO if all you're doing is banging lifts, you may prefer to go with a true hardshell, but if you ever tour, climb, or hike in the jacket, you should really be considering either Neoshell, eVent, or Powershield Pro. You just need to understand how to manage moisture and stay moving to stay warm in the unlikely event you get caught in some seriously shit weather.

I'm all set for jackets this season but would absolutely consider one of MIke's jackets when the time comes for me to replace my trusty Rab (also a Neoshell jacket).

PS Mike - what's the difference between the Antero 2 and Antero 3? (And why is the seemingly older Antero 2 more expensive?)
PPS - You've got "Malden Mills" spelled incorrectly on the Antero 2 and Antero 3 pages

I dunno. In my opinion Neoshell is too cold on the lift in storms and too warm when hiking in the calm and sunny (in my baselayer usually). I have no use for it at the resort.

I also do better in softshells when touring and needing protection. Neoshell just doesn't breathe enough. Its pretty rare that we get rain in winter, so a softshell has never let me down - never fully wetted out. Even with wet snow. When its snowing really heavy out here, they're usually decently cold and nasty storms and a very thin puffy is warranted for extra warmth which also provides enough of a barrier if its wet snow.

Its a good 3-season activity material though, imo. Hiking and climbing, etc.

I've always been impressed with Mike's jackets when fondling them and keep wishing I had a need for another jacket instead of already having too many jackets. Keep on making rad stuff, a superlight touring bib (softshell ideally, but I won't hold my breath) would be great, though I know I'm in the minority part of the market for that.

How high up the neck does the Sneffels midlayer go? My biggest issue with hooded midlayers is helmet use, when the layer comes up over the chin there's no way for me to comfortably wear a helmet.

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Originally Posted by jono

Every feature on the Antero jackets seems completely thought out and tested, from the bomber zippers to the hood and cuffs. It's unusual not to see well-used maggot gear in Gear Swap, but in this case apparently none of us are parting with them, so that maggot discount looks pretty good!

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I've been taking a hard look at the Antero. Can anyone who owns one comment on the arms: are they articulated/gusseted so you can raise your hands above your head without the body moving much or the sleeves slipping down? This jacket will (hopefully) see a fair amount of climbing so that's important to me. What about the fit? Looks like it might be a bit short in the body and long in the arms compared to other companies? Or do people find it pretty proportional?

Also, Mike, what's the difference between the Antero variants: II, II Plus and 3?

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

I also do better in softshells when touring and needing protection.

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I've got one of those Schoeller Dawn Patrol jackets from BD's original clothing release and it's been pretty good in this respect, while also being reasonably wind-proof, and Utah-snow-proof. But waterproof it is not, nor is my MHW DryQ shell.

@auvgeek - there is all kinds of articulation/range of motion. As far as riding up when arms overhead, there's about 3" of lift at bottom of jacket (draw cord completely loose) when arms are straight up, and the sleeves do not ride up your arm more than maybe 1".

The jackets are quite roomy - I'm 6' & 200+ lbs in an XL. Maybe could have got away with a large, but I like the room for hydration squeeze, beacon, safety meeting gear, etc.

Lemme know if you want more info

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Originally Posted by Bean

I've always been impressed with Mike's jackets when fondling them and keep wishing I had a need for another jacket instead of already having too many jackets. Keep on making rad stuff, a superlight touring bib (softshell ideally, but I won't hold my breath) would be great, though I know I'm in the minority part of the market for that.

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This. Once some of my other jackets and layers start to wear out I hope to replace them with a Freeride Systems piece. I'd also like a touring bib, but would be fine with Neoshell.

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Originally Posted by jono

It's Polartec; their explanation is here: http://www.polartec.com/product/polartec-neoshell

Subjectively, it works better than other membrane fabrics at sucking out sweat and it actually doesn't block wind as completely, either. Obviously a slight adjustment in layering for high winds fixes any downside there, but I noticed right away that even with thinner layers I was actually still more comfortable than usual as the wind kicked up, I think because no sweat=no clammy cold. Hard to be precise about that, but like I mentioned, it is comfortable over a wider range of temps. I'm going to treat it pretty carefully and hope it lasts forever, but so far so good.

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What he said in bold. Like I said, I have worn my polartec hoodie in both hot and cold temps and it just seems to make my body temp perfect. It's just one layer, it's not a jacket but, for kicking around in a one layer hoodie that could be incorporated with any other layers, it's the shit. And worthy of the FKNA logo.

Splat, are you talking about polartec softshell material or Neoshell? I was referring to neoshell (much closer to a hardshell, but with some stretch) but as I'm sitting here in my Sneffles it seems clear that comment applies to both in different ways.

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

I dunno. In my opinion Neoshell is too cold on the lift in storms and too warm when hiking in the calm and sunny....
I also do better in softshells when touring and needing protection....
Its a good 3-season activity material though, imo.

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Which 3 seasons? I have (reluctantly?) given mine a break in the summer. Layers are your friend in winter, though. That compromise certainly varies, but so far for me slightly heavier base/mid layers cover the insulation issue while retaining the breathing which is ideal for hot resort laps or windy touring. I also strip down to base layers sometimes for the up, so the light weight jacket winds up in the pack when I'm running hot and comes out for the wind as a ridge is gained or to fend off rain/hail etc. I'm often a little sweaty when it goes on, so the ability to dry out with it on is awesome; as others have said, I'm done with Gore etc. But I absolutely endorse the flow-through venting on FRS jackets specifically; full open at the cuffs, neck, and pits still makes a big difference.

I think the comparison of Neoshell to softshells is harder to pin down, though. I can breathe--with my lungs, I mean--through Neoshell, where some heavier softshells are more opaque, but obviously with no membrane the lightest end of the spectrum will breathe more. Just depends on how much you need, but I strongly prefer to have both options.

I have a Rab Neoshell (was considering the FRS, but at the time I purchased only the Antero II was available, and I felt it would be too heavy for primarily touring). As others have said, the breathability of Neoshell is great, and legitimate, unlike GoreTex. I haven't had any issues with its waterproofness in CA & UT. However, if the wind is really howling, I do get colder than I have before in the past, so I'm now wearing thicker baselayers. Neoshell + Nano Air is pretty great.

That said, the Antero 3 looks great, as does the Bross. I love my R1 jacket, but it doesn't have a hood, and the Patagonia R1 hoody has no pockets, a very snug fit, and a scuba hood, plus costs twice as much.

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Originally Posted by Andeh

However, if the wind is really howling, I do get colder than I have before in the past, so I'm now wearing thicker baselayers.

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Yeah - thats when I ran into problems with lift served. High winds on the lifts had me wearing heavier baselayers, which left me sweating in the trees at the bottom of the run (out of the wind). A super thin lightweight baselayer and a hardshell thin puffy with awesome ventilation was the trick (Flylow BA). Kills it for the mountain states. Vent and its almost like running around naked.

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

Yeah - thats when I ran into problems with lift served. High winds on the lifts had me wearing heavier baselayers, which left me sweating in the trees at the bottom of the run (out of the wind). A super thin lightweight baselayer and a hardshell thin puffy with awesome ventilation was the trick (Flylow BA). Kills it for the mountain states. Vent and its almost like running around naked.

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Why I am looking real hard at TNF thermoball hybrid.
Removed pic, didn't want to cunt the Micol thread.

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

Also, Mike, what's the difference between the Antero variants: II, II Plus and 3?

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and

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Originally Posted by BrokeSomeRibs

PS Mike - what's the difference between the Antero 2 and Antero 3? (And why is the seemingly older Antero 2 more expensive?)
PPS - You've got "Malden Mills" spelled incorrectly on the Antero 2 and Antero 3 pages

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Antero 2 has the arc'teryx style hood collar design that allows for moving the hood over the head or helmet without unzipping the front zipper. Ant 2 has interior pocket bags great for extra, lens, platypus, etc. Ant 2 is made from a Polartec Hybrid soft/hardshell fabric (quiet, heavier than hardshell, better insulating good for really low temps with correct layering) 1 internal zip pkt

Antero 2 Plus (same as Antero 2) except is hardshell tricot lined version similar to the Flylow Lab 2.0 but costs less and made in Colorado

Antero 3 Hardshell is tricot lined hardshell with NO arc'teryx style collar hood, no internal pocket bags, 1 internal zip pkt

PPS my spelling and grammar will never be much better than it is around here on tgr. when i dispatch the " web people" a lot of times that is me. so, my mistake. but thanks I am going to correct it.

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

I dunno. In my opinion Neoshell is too cold on the lift in storms and too warm when hiking in the calm and sunny (in my baselayer usually). I have no use for it at the resort.

I also do better in softshells when touring and needing protection. Neoshell just doesn't breathe enough. Its pretty rare that we get rain in winter, so a softshell has never let me down - never fully wetted out. Even with wet snow. When its snowing really heavy out here, they're usually decently cold and nasty storms and a very thin puffy is warranted for extra warmth which also provides enough of a barrier if its wet snow.

Its a good 3-season activity material though, imo. Hiking and climbing, etc.

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Brian, I've seen you say this stuff before in Neo thread I think. You need to remember Neoshell is built by polartec in any variation you want....meaning

1. We pick the face fabric composition: e.g. (95%Poly 5%Lycra),( 93% Nylon 7% Lycra), ( 80% Nylon 15% Poly 5 Lycra) and so on....virtually any combonation is available to us as buyers of raw fabric..

2 The Neoshell membrane is the constant...its the same for all variations of Neoshell

3. The internal layer can be : Nylon Tricot, High loft velour fleece poly(think furry dog), Low loft velour poly (think pool table felt), micro grid velour poly, etc , etc , etc

So, no two Neoshell garments are going to perform exactly alike or be "warm' or "cold" you are not understanding....it is a customizable fabric for us to buy.....

So, Brian when you have a high loft velour interior and a 100%Nylon face that Neoshell is going to perform differently than say 80% poly 20%lycra micro grid velour, or even tricot .....Do you get that?

We can change #1 and #3 from list above and dial in the performance for cold, stretch, etc...

You probably ought to be talking about Neoshell in regard to specific brand and specific model...not lumping it all together, because you are spreading information that is not accurate.

^^^^^^^^in general to all

thanks for the positive vibes and support !

This is not an easy endeavor making garments like this in the USA as all the sourcing components are much more difficult to assemble, labor costs are 10x plus more expensive and none of the fancy equipment is around here like welding etc..

However, I have to say I did not plan to start an apparel company, it evolved from making the boot pack 1 carry system and now I am deep in and it feels very worthwhile and like the right way to make garments for the mountains...live in mountains, know what is missing from other garments, put those all together in one jacket, make it in the State where the mountains are located (this last onemaybe not relevant to performance), but very relative to positively affecting the most local people .

Pants almost dropped this season, but I hit some snags in my 3-4 years worth of designing and testing so instead of selling something I dont 100% think is the best, I will wait till I get it all dialed in 100%

C (makerstele) ?? I speak 'tgr' but I don't understand...I know u dont think im a dick because we have history but im trying to still figure out that post :) i think this may be a variation of sfb speak...or code or....

I don't know shit about fabrics but I know that the jackets I've seen are sweet. Please, when you make pants let them be pants. Not everyone likes bibs.

MiCol - fair enough. Its my understanding that CFM or direct air permeability is largely based on the least breathable component - in this case I suppose it could possibly NOT be the Neoshell membrane itself? I would think it would be though. Out of your options for #1 - how would you characterize the breathability between each of the fabrics? (darth vader test - try to breath through it)

If you make pants, you should consider add male snaps near the belt loops like Oakley does and add mating female snaps to powder skirts (add removeable ones to the jacket). Killer system - love it. Oh yeah and suspenders are a must. Skiing is really dynamic and the last thing I want is something tight around my waist (usually pop snaps no matter how loose the waist is - moguls or chop and the occassional huck).

By the way, digging the new color options man!

Makes sense, I had a feeling that my Rab jacket was cold partly mostly because it's basically just a paper thin shell, more than the fact that it was air permeable. Yeah, I can feel the tiniest bit of draft when it's really blowing, but the fact that I'm warm again if I wear like Merino 3 + R1 under it, or Merino 2 + Nano Air matches what you're saying about the interior face fabric. Basically, adding a buffer space of warm air between the body and the shell of the jacket. I was used to being so sweaty from GoreTex's plastic bag effect, that I defaulted to wearing very minimal layers.

Agreeing with Furry Goggles on the pants, sort of. I prefer pants with built in, removable suspenders. Bibs make me really sweaty in lower back and waist. Also, take a look at how the Arc'teryx Theta SV suspenders are set up: the rear strap ends come forward and attach just in front of the side zip. This lets you drop trou after your morning coffee works it's way through you, without taking your jacket & layers off to remove suspenders.

Anyways, ordered a Bross - too good a deal to pass up!

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

MiCol - fair enough. Its my understanding that CFM or direct air permeability is largely based on the least breathable component...

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Forgive me if I have this wrong, but I'm thinking you're an engineer, right? It would be more accurate to think of layers as resistors in series (they pretty much are, aside from linear math). If you have three and one has 100x more resistance than the others you can get away with ignoring the others, but as they get closer in values you have to do the math and pay attention to all of them. Without isolating it, you know this membrane is similar to fabric in terms of flow resistance because it's easily possible to make a fabric with no membrane at all that breathes slower than a light Neoshell.

It sounds like your experience validates the better flow. YMMV, but I prefer better breathing/less sweat to less breathing/more sweat in all circumstances; getting insulation right for temperature is still important, but I'm much more sensitive to it when I'm sweating.

Full disclosure, though: I'm planning to rock the Antero II inbounds whenever it's cold enough and save the Neoshell for when there's no chance of lift grease dripping on me. In an attempt to preserve factory DWR, I've actually removed a couple spots of grease with Techwash on a Q-tip and rinsing until the water beaded off (that was weird!) but it was kind of a pain.

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Originally Posted by jono

Forgive me if I have this wrong, but I'm thinking you're an engineer, right? It would be more accurate to think of layers as resistors in series (they pretty much are, aside from linear math). If you have three and one has 100x more resistance than the others you can get away with ignoring the others, but as they get closer in values you have to do the math and pay attention to all of them. Without isolating it, you know this membrane is similar to fabric in terms of flow resistance because it's easily possible to make a fabric with no membrane at all that breathes slower than a light Neoshell.

It sounds like your experience validates the better flow. YMMV, but I prefer better breathing/less sweat to less breathing/more sweat in all circumstances; getting insulation right for temperature is still important, but I'm much more sensitive to it when I'm sweating.

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Thats true for calculating CFM between layers, but when talking about fabrics laminated together it changes quite a bit - they tend to act as one layer with the lowest CFM of the bunch. The formula for layering is 1/(1/a + 1/b).

I agree with you when it comes to backcountry skiing but when you add being on lifts in the alpine and wind, I prefer a completely windproof shell, thin layers and large venting capabilities that can bypass almost all of your insulation (can't do that with fleeces/etc.). This way you have minimal insulation (bypassed) when you're warm and no heat-sapping wind requiring you to add lots of midlayer warmth. Stretch-woven softshells suck for liftserved on all but the warmest and calmest days for a reason. Really big fan of insulated hardshells with no-mesh venting for lifts - especially on colder days.

^^We are def in tech talk:biggrin:

Brian, I think the best thing is for you and me to meet up in SumCo and let me show you some of these fabrics dissected. (anytime convenient for you, as I live up here and around a lot)

In addition, I want to say that wearing both the Antero 2 and 3 [not together at one time ] on a sled at high speed I have felt no wind penetration. The most layering I would have had in that situation would have been the Sneffles or the Bross R-1 and a long sleeve base layer. And no other significant wind barrier layer to contribute to face fabric and membrane wind resistance.

I'm going to leave the formulas to you and Jono:FIREdevil

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Originally Posted by Andeh

Makes sense, I had a feeling that my Rab jacket was cold partly mostly because it's basically just a paper thin shell, more than the fact that it was air permeable. Yeah, I can feel the tiniest bit of draft when it's really blowing, but the fact that I'm warm again if I wear like Merino 3 + R1 under it, or Merino 2 + Nano Air matches what you're saying about the interior face fabric. Basically, adding a buffer space of warm air between the body and the shell of the jacket. I was used to being so sweaty from GoreTex's plastic bag effect, that I defaulted to wearing very minimal layers.

Agreeing with Furry Goggles on the pants, sort of. I prefer pants with built in, removable suspenders. Bibs make me really sweaty in lower back and waist. Also, take a look at how the Arc'teryx Theta SV suspenders are set up: the rear strap ends come forward and attach just in front of the side zip. This lets you drop trou after your morning coffee works it's way through you, without taking your jacket & layers off to remove suspenders.

Anyways, ordered a Bross - too good a deal to pass up!

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^ I have noted everyone's suggestions and concerns on pants.

Once I get the most recent bugs out of the latest version...I will query you guys in depth a little more
about the details like the suspender and other trim and accessories. And, for that matter fabric selection.

I have finalized high impact area fabrics and zipper placements and can insert different fabrics into
that template. My test versions have all been sewn from Polartec Neoshell with a low pct Poly higher lycra content face fabric and a gridded wicking fleece interior finish. (laminate of course/not separate fabric). However, we could make that pant in hardshell version as well as the hybrid I described.
interior which

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

Thats true for calculating CFM between layers, but when talking about fabrics laminated together it changes quite a bit - they tend to act as one layer with the lowest CFM of the bunch. The formula for layering is 1/(1/a + 1/b).

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I'm pretty sure if we built an airplane out of this stuff and put it on a treadmill it still wouldn't get very far off the ground, so I don't think we need to get too nuts on numbers. Suffice it to say that your formula is the inverse of the one I was suggesting (permeability rather than resistance) but knowing that you can still use it to prove what I was saying, just plug in some very different numbers for a and b and compare the result to what happens when they are very similar: it shows that if one layer is extremely dominant you can ignore the others.

Since we know that some of the Neoshell laminates breathe so well that you would prefer they breathed less, I'm guessing you'll need to french kiss some of MiCol's samples and report back? Err...hopefully no tongue required.

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

Really big fan of insulated hardshells with no-mesh venting for lifts - especially on colder days.

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Agreed. That's exactly how I intend to use the Antero II. Since it's fully vented with no mesh and zippers that operate freely I'll be interested to see how warm it can get before I go to the Neoshell. Last spring I got nothing but warm days. Bring on winter!