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Discussion over in the Jackson Hole thread:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=282107
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Man. That is rough. Curious if there are any further weather/sluff-cause details in the incident report. No obvious mistakes to learn from I've read so far. Seems like an objective hazard of being in an exposed location in the mountains. Z's description is quite lucid for being so soon after the incident.
Not a mistake, but a sad reminder that even small loose snow avalanches on steep terrain can be enough to knock 3 people over rocks and ice for 500 feet resulting in death and serious injuries. Mountains are rough places.Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
Yikes. Getting swept by a sluff in a terrain trap = recurring nightmare. RIP Luke
Not to MMQB, but perhaps simulclimbing with a few pickets among them could have made all the difference.
That is an interesting thought, and something that is very rarely done in skiing.Quote:
Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark
On the flip side, it could also have resulted in all four of them being carried?
I read the angle was around 40 deg, unlikely anyone would rope up and use pro.
too slow.
Of course if they would have used good pro, this wouldn't happen.
But in real life, they all thought that the risk was minimal.
And it probably was. Maybe one in a thousand, which is no consolation if your number is
up.
They were all very experienced, it just shows that mountains are dangerous.
I've climbed a metric shitton of alpine climbs of 3k or more and objective hazards like spindrift and sluffs were always paramount. Way before I even took skiing seriously. I can't tell you how many rocks, sluffs, and shit rained down on me from NH to Chamonix to Scotland. Avi'd on Huntington, same in Anoch Mor, crevasse in Cham. It scared the shit out of me then, and I always take my climbing background to my ski world. It's alpinism. It doesn't discriminate. Objective Hazards. It beat's the Colorado avi assessment all day long. It's one and the same. Objective hazard.
Just sucks to see death. Which in that realm, I know well.
Let's get old together and toss a few tricks here and there as the Scot's would say. Same same in NE and WY.
Really? How much time actually? I can bang a bomber picket in under 30 seconds. Or set a screw if it's ice.Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301
I think this type of decent might aid from some simple alpine skills which I feel are overlooked by most skiers in the U.S.
Not from my experience in Europe. Hell, I've grabbed and wrapped off of a Frenchie's route on a 3 pitcher in avi/thunder zone and felt great to repay the favor for the style they show at the crags.
Save lives. I've been there right on the edge of being off of my crampons. You know what it feels like. A gust, some drift. You stick your head to the wall and fucking pray. It doesn't feel good.
Maybe it's time for some accepted practices to change, or not. It's a dialog.
Good post. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark
It would never have occurred to me to use any protection there. My first reaction was that they did nothing wrong.
As I understand it, they stopped to rest at a place where the slope was less steep. While climbing steeper ground we typically have our ice axes ready and our eyes uphill. Did the very act of resting make them less alert? Less ready to react? Perhaps these are moments in which we should considered an anchor if conditions and location warrant. While I've used ice screws or a sling on a tree for security when traversing a suspect slope, I can think plenty of times I've reached a natural (less steep) resting place and just relaxed, taking in a the view, having a snack. I'm sure I've been occasionally guilty of mistaking comfort for safety.
interesting discussion about potential use of protection. to me complacency is so much easier on snow than rock. i've had a friend, who is a climber first and skier second, freak out because we were skiiing through some steep rock peppered garden at kirkwood once. it was a trade-route entrance to a major run. i could understand his discomfort and he made it through fine, but....
i can see the argument that protected simu climbing no steep snow can slow down the group, it would definitely change the style of steep snow climbing (for me at least) where all parties essentially need to climb at a similar rate. i've also had the mentality when climbing steep snow with others that I would not want to be roped up because of the scenario if one were to fall and pull down the whole group with the perception that there is not always good areas for pro placement. Maybe some of that perception is due to my lack of experience placing and falling on picket protection (i.e. trust that using the protection outweighed the costs of dealing with and carrying the gear).
condolences to friends and family
What I don't get is why everyone follows in line up a steep boot pack. It's like dominoes ...
If separate for avy danger, why not lateral separation for fall danger?
4 people was 2 too many in that space. And yes I skied it for the first time 1988.
So you're claiming to have done it 4 years before the credited first descent in June 1992?Quote:
Originally Posted by kailas
Protection and when to use it is more about risks then angle. Glaciers are the classic exam, low angle but high risk = rope up.
I seldom find myself on 40 degree slopes with knife hardness (or 'first knuckle') snow whilst perched on my crampons. But when I have, I've felt well and truly uncomfortable enough to self belay almost constantly with the shaft of my ice axe. And that includes using a long sling to quickly tie myself to the axe when stationary. Perhaps a false sense of security? When ascending in such conditions I usually like to bury the shaft at least half way for every step, or every second step. It is tiresome and it is easy to become lazy. If the snow is too hard to self belay with the shaft of my axe, and it is 40 degrees with exposure below... very scary times. Time for a rope.Quote:
Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!
(+ ~5 min to lead the rope out, +~5 min to take the rope in, + 2 min/changeover) x number of changeovers. If you are only relying on pickets, you'd need a lot of pickets to move efficiently. If the snow is soft, you are t-slotting, and spending >>30 seconds per placement. Certainly there are times when protecting high consequence moderate terrain is appropriate, and maybe this was one of those times, but you wouldnt get very far ski touring if you protected every exposed 40+ deg slope.Quote:
Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark
3 pickets, 60 meters of rope, one per pitch simulclimbing. Not bad at all for a couple thousand vert. And no, I don't place pro on 40 d snow slopes while skiing. It's just something I think maybe we should be thinking about. Especially on exposed alpine faces. I think the euro's have this pretty much dialed. Just not here in the States, where even a whippet and a pair of verts on 50 d is de rigur these days.
I've been on shaky frontpoints in a windstorm a couple thousand up with a fall = die perch and wished I didn't have those fucking skis on my back while ice crystals are stuffing my nose like an 8-ball.
Just a dialog, like I posted.
Because death is not really what I want in that situation.
Yikes and condolences to those who knew them. Shitty deal. Self belay with ice axe in those conditions should be second nature but it is hard to second guess anything. They were in a bowling alley. Could have been a rock to the head, same result. Mountains are unforgiving places.
RIP and best wishes to the injured.
Interesting discussion re: pickets and ropes and ice axe "belays."
My method is two whippets and crampons but I'd probably go for a ride in these circumstances too. Anyone who's had their skis kicked out from under them with a few inches of wet slough knows how easily our balance on steep snow is thrown.
I can't see myself using ropes and pickets as its a lot of extra gear and hassle and I just don't get into the mixed climbing anymore anyways.
I feel like I have sensed a trend in ski mountaineering of more ascent accidents, especially in couloir situations. Kip Garre and Fransson and now this come to mind. It's the objective hazard thing combined with the funnel effect of couloirs - especially narrower or ones that fan at the top. Multiply your time in the couloir by the # of potential slide or rockfall release zones and you have at least a several times increased odds of having a negative event. Add to it terrain trap or doglegs or bad terrain to fall into as your consequence and man your avg risk is a lot higher than on open slopes or bowls.
climbing steep and hard snow with exposure sounds like SOP for late spring/summer skiing, at least in the sierra. isn't it like that in most areas?Quote:
Originally Posted by neck beard
For sure, steep and hard with an ice tool is ok.
But at least in the sierras, when it's hard, there is no risk of wet slides.
I climb 50 degree couloirs with frozen spring snow, but I also accept that I could get seriously worked if I fell, since self arrest would be close to impossible.
Continuing that thought, Steve Romeo and Chris Onufer were also ascending when they got caught:Quote:
Originally Posted by smitchell333
Meanwhile, the Moran incident is now even worse, with a second fatality, Stephen Adamson:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Baerwald – Park Ranger, Grand Teton National Park
http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/t...15f423712.html
http://wyomingestatelaw.com/attorneys/stephen-adamson/
Sad that the second person has now died in hospital.
Same where I live. I tend to avoid it, or find safer ways to access, rather than routinely take the risk of direct, steep, frozen, exposed unpropped solo climbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
i agree. i have done both, depending on the circumstances, objective, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by neck beard
personally, i have been a part of less than stellar results a few times following both methods. i'm sure others have, too (there was a group of mags that had a very close call due to a fall while ascent hard pack several years back in the sierra). personally, i have fallen into that snowbridge thing feature between the rock wall and the consistent snow of a couloir while ascending. separate times, i have had two friends taking very long slides because the coulor was still solid; we hadn't climbed them and "thought" that they had thawed; one guy even had an axe and tried to arrest (it may have eventually stopped him).
i have also id'ed hazards while climbing (ice budge, rock, etc.) and been able to easily navigate the issue on the descent. also, i've been able to confirm avi issue in the objective and been able to mitigate the hazard from above or do something else, where climbing the objective would have been really bad.