Fixed ropes on bad entries [stupid JONG question!?]

Fixed ropes are common on heinous climbing approaches through little gullies, crazy scrambles and other places where a slip would be bad. You've got a heavy load (rack, rope, etc) so a fixed rope can be very welcome. Climbers put the ropes up and replace them when they're getting shot. They can be very, very helpful. So, is this ever done in skiing on sketchy traverses or entries through tiny slots, etc? I've never seen it, but that doesn't mean a thing. I'm not talking about being lowered into a couloir or rapping off a fixed anchor or any of that.

Example: I nearly shit my pants on an insanely narrow, steep approach across the huge buttress slightly below and to the right of Eagles Nest at Alta (bear right past Eagle's Nest and curve down and back towards the left). It was really little more than a very, very steep sideslip path looping down and around the face of the buttress. One side was about 75deg and 100ft down to a sieve of trees at the bottom and the uphill side was about as steep. The fucking thing was boney and narrower than my skis (I was on 190s). Nothing to grab. Clean edging not possible, too rocky. And of course it got progressively worse with no options. I really thought it was over - catching and popping off a rock would have been the end. It was the perfect place for a knotted fixed rope, which in the climbing world would have been there.

Sure fixed ropes could be buried regularly, but with frequent use and proper positioning they'd be easy enough to find. I'm thinking about hiking up there and putting one up as a community service. Flame on.:FIREdevil:FIREdevil

I have no idea if it's there now, but I skied Fernie a bunch of years ago and there was a rope to help into some steepish tree run. It was a pain to avoid because I didn't need it. Fat fucking rope dangling into the spot I want to turn.

Huh, OK. Sounds like a bad placement though. If it's skiable at all by anybody it probably shouldn't be there. In my example I'm hard pressed to think of anybody actually skiing it rather than sideslipping down.

Here in Telluride we have a backcountry egress route that bottlenecks into a spot with a fixed rope. It's hand over hand through a short and often unskiable section that's about 30ft. long. It's known locally as the "monkey swing."

Moonlight Basin has a couple along the Headwaters hike, one on the Dead Goat hike and one in the Whitewaters to help skiers down through a narrow rocky choke.

The 'Bird has one from the Silver Fox into Great Scott. It seems kind of silly when the snow is good but it was nice this year. I think there is also one on the entrance to one of the chutes under gadzoom.

Silverton.

Theres a couple on Blackcomb known as ropeline.

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Originally Posted by raueda1

So, is this ever done in skiing on sketchy traverses or entries through tiny slots, etc?

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What I notice is that skiers tend to accept far higher un-belayed exposure than climbers ever would, particularly on very firm slippery surfaces. Not sure why, but some guesses:

1. a lot of skiers/boarders step-up into bigger ski mountaineering terrain for thrill and challenge without changing their mindset to a mountaineering mindset. They continue to think like skiers and are often blind to the risk.

2. they trust their edges more than a climber trusts their crampon points.

3. they trust their bindings more than a climber trusts their crampon straps.

4. they want it to be scary and difficult, otherwise, why bother (internet, ego, accomplishing a challenge using their skills as a skier/boarder).

5. if a skiing stock broker has a whippet, nothing can go wrong.

6. the internet makes it looks easy, and expects no less from you.



I can think of times in my over enthusiastic past that suffered from some of these influences.

20 years ago there was a rope tied to a tree above a usually-to-bony-to-ski entrance to a tree shot at Stowe. I have no idea if it's still there.

I completely disagree that fixed ropes on sketchy climbing approaches are in any way "common." They VERY occasionally used in tourist goon areas for both climbing and skiing (ski areas, or beginner crags, for example), but I wouldn't say they're common in technical climbing areas.

If you need a rope, bring it. I don't care if you're in rock shoes or ski boots, there is no shame in hand-over-hand lowering or rappelling something you feel is too dangerous to downclimb. But please, no fucking fixed ropes. They deteriorate quickly and offer a false sense of security. Bring your own rope, leave a minimal rap anchor is you must, and leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by adrenalated

I completely disagree that fixed ropes on sketchy climbing approaches are in any way "common." They VERY occasionally used in tourist goon areas for both climbing and skiing (ski areas, or beginner crags, for example), but I wouldn't say they're common in technical climbing areas.

If you need a rope, bring it. I don't care if you're in rock shoes or ski boots, there is no shame in hand-over-hand lowering or rappelling something you feel is too dangerous to downclimb. But please, no fucking fixed ropes. They deteriorate quickly and offer a false sense of security. Bring your own rope, leave a minimal rap anchor is you must, and leave it at that.

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I'm not getting into a 'where do you climb' pissing contest. Except to say I've seen them in the east and in the west, and not just at gumby nOOb crags. But never skiing, so I guess it's not such a crazy idea in any case.

Let me put this more bluntly. Unless you are wearing a harness and clipping into a line for actual fall protection, fixed lines are nothing more than a feel good measure for people that frankly should not be moving in that terrain unroped in the first place. This covers all fixed lines I've encountered skiing and about 50% of the ones I've encountered climbing.

Again, if you need to rope up, there's no shame in that. I've climbed plenty of things with a rope that many free solo, and I've rappeled things that many downclimb. Climb and ski to your abilities, use appropriate gear for your abilities, but don't place deteriorating jank in the outdoors that will be used for the illusion of safety and nothing more. Holding onto a thin rope with one hand is NOT going to save your life if you fuck up, so don't pretend otherwise.

There's not a single one in California because we're fucking awesome

Going bottom to top lends itself to fixed lines, top to bottom can be solved with fixed anchors/rap/pull the rope/don't leave tat on the mountain.

Aren't there fixed lines at Alta for going up from the traverse that leads to the greeley area? It's been so long that i cant remember names.

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Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

Silverton.

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yup.
the only two i've encountered, although i haven't traveled widely.

those caused more problems than not (were in the way).

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

Aren't there fixed lines at Alta for going up from the traverse that leads to the greeley area? It's been so long that i cant remember names.

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They're on the approach to High Eddie's.

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Originally Posted by neck beard

What I notice is that skiers tend to accept far higher un-belayed exposure than climbers ever would, particularly on very firm slippery surfaces. Not sure why, but some guesses:

I can think of times in my over enthusiastic past that suffered from some of these influences.

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Interesting thoughts, I'll try to have a better response than this later.

I'm a lift serve skier, with some exceptions but not enough, and have only found two places with a fixed rope. Some times it's been useful in the early/late season and when the route is in the way it only takes a minute to pull it out of the way.

I think there is a fundamental difference in how a skier thinks about gravity that may be part of the reason behind your guesses. A climber works against gravity on the up and the down. In skiing we work against gravity on the up, then play/work with it on the way down.

Heart of Darkness, a steep & skinny chute behind Mt. Superior, has had one in the past. We didn't use it as a primary, too worn. Lots of rap stations in the Wasatch .. Pfeifferhorn, Olympus and probably a lot of others.

Fixed ropes I've encountered both climbing and skiing were often times placed and maintained by local guiding services for their own convenience (for example: Grand Teton, fixed lines going to the lower saddle, Col du Chardonnay, this past year due to conditions the local guide companies had fixed a line from top to bottom, which did significantly speed up the spot that is usually rappelled), but are used by the general public. The two I mention above are totally convenient and probably speed up an otherwise annoying bottle neck on popular routes. But those two I mention above are in super popular, super traveled areas and are maintained by professionals. If I stumbled upon a random fixed rope somewhere off the beaten path in the Tetons, I would probably be very, very leery of it and as a skier prefer to trust my own edges.

But I also don't ski 190 CM skis. :FIREdevil

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Originally Posted by Franz

Fixed ropes I've encountered both climbing and skiing were often times placed and maintained by local guiding services for their own convenience (for example: Grand Teton, fixed lines going to the lower saddle, Col du Chardonnay, this past year due to conditions the local guide companies had fixed a line from top to bottom, which did significantly speed up the spot that is usually rappelled), but are used by the general public. The two I mention above are totally convenient and probably speed up an otherwise annoying bottle neck on popular routes. But those two I mention above are in super popular, super traveled areas and are maintained by professionals. If I stumbled upon a random fixed rope somewhere off the beaten path in the Tetons, I would probably be very, very leery of it and as a skier prefer to trust my own edges.

But I also don't ski 190 CM skis. :FIREdevil

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Unless I know who placed the rope or bolt, I tend to place my own. If I need a rope there is probably a reason why, and typically I have no idea on the rope or bolt that is there. And yes, I have had people scough at me while I do it. But maybe that is why I am still around to do it?

Anybody have a video of Benny rappelling into Hogan Bowl?

kirkwood has fixed lines on lookout vista and and two on covered wagon. unless anyone here has actually seen them move in the last two years.

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Originally Posted by powdork

kirkwood has fixed lines on lookout vista and and two on covered wagon. unless anyone here has actually seen them move in the last two years.

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were those installed after the rope tow things? i don't remember anything there before the rope tow things. I also haven't skied kirkwood since they installed the rope tow things? if i remember right, patrol has fixed anchors in the heart chute area for rescues/extraction.

one of the most annoying things that i've encountered related to fixed lines are fixed chains in a canyon. it really changed and downgraded the technical aesthetic descent. water-filled pothole partner assists became batman-ing up chains. not a popular canyon and still fairly remote (multiday for most, even with boat assist).

^ i was referring to the rope tows, which have become fixed lines up 20 degree slopes.

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Originally Posted by Canada1

Unless I know who placed the rope or bolt, I tend to place my own. If I need a rope there is probably a reason why, and typically I have no idea on the rope or bolt that is there. And yes, I have had people scough at me while I do it. But maybe that is why I am still around to do it?

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Guy i used to climb with a little bit was rappelling the Owen-Spalding, decided the dozens of slings in place looked sketchy so he placed his own, sling failed when he was about 10 feet above the Upper Saddle and he broke his leg.

We were top roping off a fixed pin (dumb idea to start with, I know) at Seneca Rocks. The guy who placed the biners and sling said it was a good Lost Arrow. Another friend starts climbing, falls, pulls the pin, and hits the deck. He's fine but the pin hit me in the head--took 4 stitches to close. Turned out to be an old Army soft iron piton with a ring attached. How do you mistake that for a Lost Arrow? 45 years later I still have that piton hanging from my mantle.

I am not a huge fan of fixed ropes, but do like good double bolt anchors with chains or hooks. Old slings are unsightly, but bolts are hard to see from not too far off. I can see the concept for a managed fixed rope on heavily guided routes that are maintained by pros, but believe for the most part if you need a rope you should be carrying a rope.

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Originally Posted by powdork

^ i was referring to the rope tows, which have become fixed lines up 20 degree slopes.

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I knew what you were talking about, but my notes show me skiing Lookout Vista T-bar at the beginning and end of March 2014. I rode the lower Covered Wagon handle lift on April 4, 2014, but don't remember seeing the upper one run the last couple of years.

After the metal stairs getting into Delirium Dive end, you had a choice between putting on skis and stepping off at least three railroad tie-size steps, the last one right onto a rock or using a knotted rope and walking with or without skis in better/softer coverage along the right edge. I followed my guide off the steps through the rocks, but still not sure it was the better way to go.

The fixed rope by the chutes under gad zoom I remember being more trouble than they were worth. First time through there I used them and felt really off balance. Each subsequent time I just stayed on my feet and shuffled through there and felt much more in charge. I never felt all that exposed. I think the ropes are there for people that are afraid to core shot their skis on the rooty surface up there.

^^^did not know there was a rope in there. I think I might agree with you on not wanting a rope. Skis be damned.

The Covered Wagon lower rope tow did move one weekend this ear Powdork. My friends rode it. I hiked that zone a number of times this winter, and there was plenty of snow from the December storms to run the lower section it seemed. Cant figure out why they finally turned it in March for just two days. Maybe had to test the gears... Upper tow and tbar never turned this year.

Put me down with the bring your own harness, gear and cord, don't trust unknown gear team. I like the idea of "ski it if you can get to it" adrenelated put out there, allowing for any raps that might be required.

Saw some gents sporting 30 meter 8.5 cords on the Tuckerman Ravine Trail this past Saturday. Wonder where they went, Raymond Cataract maybe? Rope would be a nice way off the end of the snow at the top of that waterfall :eek:

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Originally Posted by Ottime

^^^did not know there was a rope in there. I think I might agree with you on not wanting a rope. Skis be damned.

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I like it for getting around the tree sometimes. Then I toss it behind me and let my skis deal with the rest.

I had no idea Kirkwood had two rope tows on covered wagon/holy grail. Weird?

The ropes won't help; the divorce will still be ugly.

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Originally Posted by adrenalated

I completely disagree that fixed ropes on sketchy climbing approaches are in any way "common." They VERY occasionally used in tourist goon areas for both climbing and skiing (ski areas, or beginner crags, for example), but I wouldn't say they're common in technical climbing areas.

If you need a rope, bring it. I don't care if you're in rock shoes or ski boots, there is no shame in hand-over-hand lowering or rappelling something you feel is too dangerous to downclimb. But please, no fucking fixed ropes. They deteriorate quickly and offer a false sense of security. Bring your own rope, leave a minimal rap anchor is you must, and leave it at that.

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This is bang on target.

Nonsense

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Originally Posted by kailas

Nonsense

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That was useful

remember a rope helping in some weird spot in the trees at snowbird that i don't think i could ever find again. definitely of the coreshot prevention variety. fernie had one this year in one of the saddles. that one was definitely in the way but was well used cos it wasn't very well filled in in there.