What's wrong with this photo...

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...6&d=1416195325Watched some people skin up just lookers left of a ton of natural slides on the NW aspect up a Silvy today. We were super worried about them and I almost didn't want to watch because I was sure it would go. They skied away fine.

Saw the group later and it turns out it was friends of mine. I told them I was glad they were alright and they were super lucky that it didn't rip on them. The decision maker in the group wasn't present. I asked if they had seen the naturals that they were right under. "nope" "nope" were the answers.

I ran into the leader at the car and he seemed super defensive and yet could give me no solid answer as to why he chose to ski that slope. The part that is getting to me is that I was hoping to ski with that crew this year and now I am questioning all of their decision making. I also was running through rescue scenarios while I was watching them skin up and I am now pondering what my emotional reaction would be if I responded to a slide an unknown party triggered and dug up one of my friends. Fucking spooky.

Any thoughts/advice on how to confront others on their decision making process? I want to be direct enough that they know that their choice was reckless and irresponsible, yet I don't want to be so much of a dick that they don't listen to me because I'm a dick. I was going with the statement of "I like my friends alive".

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only problem I see is it looks like they didn't ski the line from the top.

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Originally Posted by eshed

Any thoughts/advice on how to confront others on their decision making process? I want to be direct enough that they know that their choice was reckless and irresponsible, yet I don't want to be so much of a dick that they don't listen to me because I'm a dick. I was going with the statement of "I like my friends alive".

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For starters you should ditch the self-righteous tone. You state an intention to "confront." You assert an incontrovertible "reckless and irresponsible" choice. You describe an interrogation. You cap it off with a smart-ass one liner. Maybe I'm getting it wrong but that's the way the tale reads.

I hope you put more thought into your dialog than you do your story-telling. An attitude of honest enquiry might serve you better.

an honest attitude of fuck-off and leave them alone unless they are endangering you is all that is necessary.

If it bugged you that much, a simple neutral ? Or two about how things looked, felt, and sounded would seem appropriate. If you don't like the answers or tone of the answers then maybe that's when you decide whether or not you'd want to tour with part or all of that crew in the future.

It wasn't until I enlarged the photo and could see the slide, top of their uptrack, and ski lines in the shade that I saw what you were talking about. Everything on that aspect had naturally slid, even stuff that was not as steep. It's like they looked at the situation and decided to go to the most dangerous place they could find and spend as much time there as possible. You appear to be dealing with people who don't know what they don't know, which means it is very difficult to have a rational conversation about the subject. Trying to explain to someone that they have their head up their ass usually never goes well.

Perhaps skiing with them in the future would provide an opportunity to be the group decision maker and educate them in the field. Otherwise, I would stay away from them.

After enlarging the photo I wouldn't tour with them based on the tracks they laid down. Pretty willy nilly skiing with some tracks even touching/crossing one another.

poor farm park right there.

Without knowing the weather and snowpack history from the past few days it is not easy to make a final judgement.

When did all those naturals release?

New snow or old snow?

Looks like they kept their skintrack somewhat out of the run out.

Since you say they seemed ignorant of their decision making I will have to accept that at face value.

Not the route I would have taken but the final piece of the puzzle is, when they skied it, it stayed put. So for whatever reason (skill or luck) the forecast for that slope was accurate.

Thanks for the input. This was up in Velocity basin near silverton. There was new snow all weekend and it had blown significantly the night before. All of the releases we saw were wind deposited new snow running on the old snow layer. The crew I was with had been up the day before. All of the releases were in the last 12-14 hours Walking up the valley, there were crowns on near every N-NW aspect above 35 degrees. My group chose to ski south facing, as it was all one layer of new snow.

Mudfoot: I agree. Seemed like they chose the most dangerous place they could have skied, given the conditions.

Covert and thewon: appreciate the feedback. I know about myself that I can get self righteous at times.

I also think that cluelessly skiing in terrain that is likely to slide does endanger others. It endangers potential rescuers and it endangers other skiers that might assume that you know more than them. I watched another group lemming up their skin track later that day. I know we need to be responsible for ourselves out there and I also know that any of us would respond to a witnessed slide to help with digging, search etc. unless there was significant hang-fire.

Seems like part of the problem is that there was only one "Decision Maker" in the group.

Seems like questionable decicsion making behaviour is repeated every year in the backcountry around the world. Around the Coast Range where I ski this kind of thing is so common that I barely even notice anymore. In the end you have to watch out for yourself and your crew, and let everyone else worry about themselves.

Also, calling someone out is a tricky affair. It's almost never going to end in them saying "You're right, we were wrong." Of course they are going to defend their decision after the fact, especially if it didn't slide.

Not all the little turtles make it to the ocean...

I'm with the OP on this one. They probably don't know when those natural slides occurred but based on all of the snowfall across the state in recent days it sure wasn't very long before they were out there (less than 24 hours at least). Not to mention the special avalanche bulletin that went out for pretty much all of Colorado this weekend.

Just because it didn't slide that doesn't mean they didn't make a horrible decision. (<-- that kind of sentence could get me a job broadcasting NFL games)

It appears they were going for the "best" snow, which was the deeper and softer windblown in the shade, without much regard for the avi issues. I have skied that basin many times and it gives you 270 degrees of good terrain choices, so they had lots of other options.

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Originally Posted by eshed

The part that is getting to me is that I was hoping to ski with that crew this year

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Well it sounds like that won't be an issue any longer.

Sounds like poor decision making all round by both confronter and confrontees... on the bright side at least no one got hurt.

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Originally Posted by eshed

Any thoughts/advice on how to confront others on their decision making process? I want to be direct enough that they know that their choice was reckless and irresponsible, yet I don't want to be so much of a dick that they don't listen to me because I'm a dick. I was going with the statement of "I like my friends alive".
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Originally Posted by thewon

If it bugged you that much, a simple neutral ? Or two about how things looked, felt, and sounded would seem appropriate. If you don't like the answers or tone of the answers then maybe that's when you decide whether or not you'd want to tour with part or all of that crew in the future.

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Well, the best method might not be to confront people. People tend to dig in pretty hard. Try to make them realize their mistakes by asking a couple of good questions, as suggested by thewon. You might even try to play ignorant yourself. Socratic method sort of.

BTW, what's the angle of the slope? 35-ish? From the picture it might seem a bit less steep than where the naturals released, but I suck at judging angle from photos.

Second guessing someone on the internet is better than having an intelligent discussion with the parties involved seems the best way to hash this out

I wouldnt have skied there, appears you wouldn't have either. Consider this a very easy way to determine that you don't want to tour with these people. If any of them are actually friends, Id sit down with them over a beer, get their thoughts on the day, then present all the concerns I had. Do it in a manner that doesnt convey judgement.

I remember talking to an aquantence who was telling a group about their BC adventures in Jackson Hole the day after a 4ft dump. After he told us that their wasnt any avy danger even though I just kinda nodded and walked away. Then I talked to my friends about making sure we didnt end up on a tour with him.

I do not know if I would of skied that or not never been there and that isn't much of a line. I do not see the big problem. Looking at the skin track the slope looks low angke until the last 4 kickturns that really didn't cover much additional vertical. There was not allot of snow hanging above the line. There was a good runout for any debris. I would not have a problem with skinning up this looking for the presence of a slab as I went. You know hand pits pole probing learning to identify hazards ,things we should understand. I do not know the history of the area. It appears the area that slid has more cross loading and is steeper. Also I will go out on a limb and say the avies may have come down earlier maybe when things cooled off and the wind picked up. The debris looks filled in.
I have only skied in this area once. The person I was with tended to stay off the sunny slope as they are affeccted rapidly. They got up very early to ski south faces at first light.
I do not see a ticking bomb here. I do not see conditions as high. There is no wind loading in the picture and the shade is preseving the snow quality. I would say you are better off on this pithch than something with fresh snow that is experiencing rapidl warming.
Also OP you should delete this thread as it really doesn't help you ar the group in question.

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Originally Posted by BFD

I do not see the big problem.

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It looks like a lot of very basic red flags were ignored. Recent avalanches on same aspect. Their skin track doesn't even avoid the rocks, which are an obvious place to expect weaknesses, and it's pretty obvious that they didn't even bother to choose the safest place for a transition ( which would have been directly below some of the rocks where there was no snow above them ). Furthermore, you'd expect weakness to increase with elevation, which is clearly what happened here ( look at the highest crown ).

Maybe they could write a trip report called "Amateur Hour in Velocity Basin".

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Originally Posted by BFD

Looking at the skin track the slope looks low angke until the last 4 kickturns that really didn't cover much additional vertical. There was not allot of snow hanging above the line.

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There is more than enough snow above the skin track to bury several people. Remember, it only takes about a coffin's worth of snow to bury you 1/2 metre down. Even small avalanches release more than enough snow to bury you many times over. According to the the size classifications used in the United States, an R2 avalanche is considered to be "small", runs about 330 feet, and is sufficient to kill or injure a person.

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Originally Posted by BFD

There is no wind loading in the picture ...

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This is plain wrong. The foreground of the picture shows crystal clear signs of wind-affected snow. It's also visible in the background - the gentle wavy patterns at the surface indicate snow drifts. How can you miss something so obvious?

Good stuff cookie.

Looking at this photo I can tell you that this group consisted of mid-20's males, at least one was on Telemark skis or using an AT binding with alpine boots (lack of smoothness in the up track) and that they have not toured much outside the state of CO. The up track loses elevation to then only go up again (young skinner's mistake) and their descent line hits a rollover in the bottom 1/3rd of what looks to be the best snow. Probably should have stuck more to the fall-line ramp on the way down. I can't judge the snowpack but I can say that given it's still early in the season in CO there's not a lot of snow on the ground. The previous slide evidence (24 to 48 hours old) did not step down to anything deep, it was isolated pockets in the rocks which is to be expected this time of year. I would call this on the low-end of a considerable rating. I'll bet they had fun. I would not have skied there. I don't like being around rocks in a continental snowpack.

Group Decision Maker??? wtf?

If "he" was deciding what to ski; then "they" fucked up before they ever put their boots on.

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Originally Posted by icb12

Group Decision Maker??? wtf?

If "he" was deciding what to ski; then "they" fucked up before they ever put their boots on.

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many many many accidents happen this way.

excelent thread and I will bump it coz we all should look and learn at this ...
perfect pic for an avy course and group descussion ...

red flag city !!!

no I would not have skinned that ...

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Originally Posted by CookieMonster

It looks like a lot of very basic red flags were ignored. Recent avalanches on same aspect. Their skin track doesn't even avoid the rocks, which are an obvious place to expect weaknesses, and it's pretty obvious that they didn't even bother to choose the safest place for a transition ( which would have been directly below some of the rocks where there was no snow above them ). Furthermore, you'd expect weakness to increase with elevation, which is clearly what happened here ( look at the highest crown ).

Maybe they could write a trip report called "Amateur Hour in Velocity Basin".



There is more than enough snow above the skin track to bury several people. Remember, it only takes about a coffin's worth of snow to bury you 1/2 metre down. Even small avalanches release more than enough snow to bury you many times over. According to the the size classifications used in the United States, an R2 avalanche is considered to be "small", runs about 330 feet, and is sufficient to kill or injure a person.



This is plain wrong. The foreground of the picture shows crystal clear signs of wind-affected snow. It's also visible in the background - the gentle wavy patterns at the surface indicate snow drifts. How can you miss something so obvious?

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some good points. I was referring to wind loading at the time of photo. I could see the drifting in the snow but still I can not tell how affected the snow is. Thought I would provoke some discussion. I think you could safely ski this slope by paying attention on the way up. As for the change over, yes it would of been better been below the rocks. However we were not there maybe they were comfortable with the snow and felt like going higher. We are not there maybe all they found was 6" of fluff on a firm base.

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Originally Posted by BFD

some good points. I was referring to wind loading at the time of photo. I could see the drifting in the snow but still I can not tell how affected the snow is. Thought I would provoke some discussion. I think you could safely ski this slope by paying attention on the way up. As for the change over, yes it would of been better been below the rocks. However we were not there maybe they were comfortable with the snow and felt like going higher. We are not there maybe all they found was 6" of fluff on a firm base.

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Thanks for the info, and I apologise if my reply seemed sharp - that wasn't my intent. ( I'm trying to work on my tone. )

Rocks, and sun. My red flag. Was in a slide in Wyoming. Rocks. and sun. This coverage near rocks and sun bad juju

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Originally Posted by icb12

Group Decision Maker??? wtf?

If "he" was deciding what to ski; then "they" fucked up before they ever put their boots on.

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Exactly my thought.

Looks like luck it did not slide.....Also wonder why they did not finish the climb? Maybe they got spooked?.

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Originally Posted by DasBlunt

Looks like luck it did not slide.....Also wonder why they did not finish the climb? Maybe they got spooked?.

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Maybe the snow was shallow and rotten and they didn't want to ski on rocks?

Enjoyed reading this, cheers for posting!

Great discussion. Thanks for the honest post and the willingness to receive feedback. This situation screams "Human Factors". First some feedback on approaching your friends. I would try to do that on a one on one or a one on two situation. If you try to do something like that in a larger group people tend to posture and get defensive. Also, you should approach the people you feel closest with first. As for what the conversation should be about, keep it open and honest. Come from a place of inquiry and try to really understand what was going on inside their heads. Chances are they will persuade themselves in the end that it was a poor situation.

As for the human factors, FACETS is a great way to analyze how dangerous the human factor was in this group (see below). I would say at least 4 of the following factors were present, maybe even all 6? The more factors present, the more dangerous a situation become. I'd take a good long look at the recent info put on on human factors from black diamond and powder also share it with your buddies. It could save a life. http://www.powder.com/human-factor/index.php


PHOTO: BRUNO LONG
Heuristic 1
FAMILIARITYI’ve skied this line a dozen times and it’s always held.

Heuristic 4
EXPERT HALOThe guide or the local guy must know what he’s doing.




Heuristic 2
ACCEPTANCEI’m not gonna be the one to chicken out/ruin the day; or I need to please my sponsors.

Heuristic 5
TRACKS/SCARCITYLet’s get the goods before someone else does!




Heuristic 3
COMMITMENT/CONSISTENCYWe’ve come this far we might as well go the whole way.

Heuristic 6
SOCIAL FACILITATION/PROOFThose other guys, or my buddies, are ripping it–clearly it’s safe.

I'm not qualified to comment on the avalanche risk. I do think that sometimes it's better to be thought a dick than to try to be everyone's friend. Way too many drunks wrap themselves around trees because their friends were afraid of seeming self-righteous and judgmental. Say it as diplomatically as you can but say it--at least if they ignore your advice you'll be better able to live with yourself. It takes a lot more courage to do or say something unpopular than to ski a sketchy line in sketchy conditions.