Tent Trailer?

surprisingly didn't find anything in a search but...
Been tossing around the idea of getting a tent trailer. We don't necessarily do a ton of camping (half doz times/ year) but the kids are now 2 and 4 and would like to start taking them more and wondering if this is the way to go. Have a couple friends who have them and seem to like em. Seems like it could make things a lot easier w the kids as far as sleeping, inclememt weather, and just using it for the downtime they still need every day at their age. Would prob be looking to buy used and in the 2-4k price range. don't (think) i need all the bells and whistles (bathroom) but...
we'd be using it from yellowstone down to moab.
So....who has one? (especially families) likes/dislikes? any thing to look out for when buying? how old is too old? better off buying a really nice tent?
we're thinking of maybe borrowing (renting?) one for a wknd to get the jist and see if it could be worth it. thoughts?

Mrs. C. and I have had two tent trailers, and now have a pop-up truck camper.

The first was bought used, when the kids were smaller, with the same thoughts you mentioned: everyone together out of the rain/bugs, bought a cheap one to see whether we liked it.

The second was bought new, since we liked the first one well enough -- sold the first one for what we paid. Selected the second one based on things we wanted that the first didn't have -- most important was a water heater and outside shower.

Sold the second after towing it through some snow storms, which truly sucks. Also, the setup/take-down time was starting to really annoy me -- takes around 20-30 minutes for full setup or collapsing.

Advantage to the tent trailers: relatively cheap (used), lots of internal space when set up, lots of ventilation (big screened windows = lots of cross-flow), low-profile and light weight for easy towing.

Disadvantage: setup/take-down time, difficult access to inside when collapsed (can't just open the door; have to lift the roof up a little), sucks to put down when wet (have to pop it back up at home to dry it all out), inefficient to heat (big fabric walls = lots of heat loss).

I bought a tent trailer last fall and love it. I still like backpacking too, which makes the tent trailer seem like even more of a palace. We've had it to Moab, Zion, Yellowstone, etc., and haven't tired of it. Mine has a heater, shower, stove, and indoor and outdoor shower. The lav is great because you'll no longer have to escort family members to the privy at 3am. KSL.com always has a ton for sale, I think the Rockwood brand at Parris RV is an awesome value. You can finance an awesome trailer for about a hunskie per month.

We got one middle of last summer - love it, love it, love it, and just as importantly so do my 5 & 7 year kids. Always found the tent camping a hassle with little kids in inclement weather. We have used it about 7 trips so far and it has rained every single time (note do not camp with us cos it'll definitely rain!). Even in torrential downpours for hours on end or overnight we are very comfortable in the trailer (very unlikely I would feel the same way if we'd been in our family tent).

We bought used (2008 model) and ours has indoor and outdoor cooktops, hot water, furnace, refrigerator etc.
Personally I don't need or want a built in crapper or indoor shower. If you want a crapper I think the small self contained marine cassette style ones are a better option than built in.
If buying used check carefully for water damage and worry about the roof and the appliances. Damaged roof would be a deal killer and rv appliances are fairly expensive to replace. Depending on where you live think about where/how you'll store it in winter too.

Takes a bit of time to set up but not significantly more than a tent, and it's pretty easy to do on your own while the family is off entertaining themselves. Opening up to dry after a wet trip is no different than tent camping.

And there's a bunch of web sites and user forums filled with lots of good info too. Popupportal.com and popupexplorer.com are two that spring to mind where I learned a lot before buying.

As mentioned the idea of trying one to see if you like it (rental or borrow if you know someone well enough that has one)... is probably a good idea. Unless you do not have a vehicle suitable to even start towing one. However first few times of setup will probably be longer. They do take much more time from what I know of years out RV camping while I was younger. We never had a pop-up, always a traditional trailer. If you go used to purchase your first one- as stated make sure it does not leak (remember you are sleeping under the tent part in most designs) and also consider the heating and type of weather you plan on using it in ( strictly summer or spring and fall where the temperature does not go too low- or else you will need much better sleeping bags as mentioned they are inefficient to heat. Advantages are easier towing with a vehicle, usually do not need a big truck or SUV (low profile does help some with gas mileage compared to a full sized upright RV's.) However they can be harder to track behind the vehicle because they are lighter weight.

A compromise for some is the HiLo RV's that the top cranks down, but it has hard sides and top all around (but not as much room typically because of no fold out sleeping platforms).

We have a pop up, I'm not a huge fan. Good for a few days somewhere, but setting it up for one night sucks. And ours is kinda fragile in the trailer portion. Blew out a leaf spring one mile from our campsite in Moab, ended up sleeping in the truck anyway. We've gotten pretty good at setup but it's still a pain in the ass. As others have said, they have limited storage and since they take up the hitch, our bikes take up most of the truck bed. Sure, a rack on top would be cool, but expensive for something we don't use that much.

We've considered just selling it and getting a really nice car camping tent so we can be more mobile, a lot of the places we like to go require at least some off-roading, which you can't do with a pop-up in tow, even those fancy off-road versions really aren't that capable because of the limits of the ball hitch.

Personally, once I get a new full size truck, we'll probably sell it and get a camper for the bed of the truck. The portability and ease of access and storage would be worth it.

Side note: We saw a bunch of people with these little pop up things on top of their cars in Fruita last year. Look like a big Thule box but crank straight up and forms a tent. Kinda weird and probably rocks like crazy in wind/sexy time.

Thanks for the responses. Due to $ and the fact that I don't have a truck right now (SUV), we pretty much have to go the pop-up route or just get a bigger tent. I do have concerns about durability esp buying used (shitty axles and leaky tents). Also about how to bring the bikes (rack on top of car or pop-up i guess). Not too concerned about set-up take down as would be doing same w a tent. What about campsite access? anyone have trouble finding spots at certain campsites due to room or just not allowing trailers?
I talked w my buddy who has one and i think we might do a joint camping trip soon (we'll just rent one) so he can show me some of the ins and outs and help set-up/take down. See how much more convienent it is and go from there.

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Originally Posted by criscam

Also about how to bring the bikes (rack on top of car or pop-up i guess).

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I've frequently seen racks on top of the pop-up trailer. People put canoes, bikes, skis, fishing poles ... all kinds of stuff. I don't know what the weight rules are, but it seems like a convenient place for the rack. Less reaching than on top of the car, and better aerodynamics. On the downside, I assume you must unload the heavy stuff before popping the top up.

I can't believe all of these naysayers. I live in my 1971 pop up all summer in Yellowstone and have taken it all over the place, even with another couple. I'm definitely going to upgrade relatively soon, but even with the ridiculously outdated technology myself and a buddy can set this thing up in under 10 minutes. Being able to stand up and change and having a table to eat around when it is raining is clutch. I got mine for $380 so I guess it really doesn't take much for me to be impressed with it.

Also, a 5gal bottle of propane lasts 3 days with the heater on full bore and cooking meals inside. It ends up being about $7 to fill it - not real sure why anyone would think that's expensive to heat. I'm sure that more modern trailers are much better insulated as well since mine is held together by patches and duct tape and my heater pumps just as much heat outside as it does inside. I don't have a hot water heater or a propane fridge, though. Attachment 155927

IMHO Truck bed campers are a completely different beast - great if you camp solo or just a couple but not practical for a family, great if you have a pickup and don't mind losing use of your bed for the summer, not good if you own an SUV etc.etc.

Re the axles and leaky tents - buying anything used is a bit of a leap of faith but you can find really good ones for not a lot of $$$. If it looks dodgy then walk away and find another one.

I carry bikes on top of my SUV (Jeep Grand Cherokee). Partly cos I already had that vehicle racked and partly cos I figure I'd rather not strain the popup roof any more than necessary and even though it has side channels for a rack the weight limit is fairly low. Yes lower height on the camper roof would be nice but you have to take them off first when setting up and put them on last when packing up which would be a pain sometimes I think.

Depends where you want to camp I guess - we mostly use forest service campgrounds so no problem with the trailer although some sites better than others due to layout, trees, picnic table and fire ring location etc. If you head a bit more off the beaten path, dirt roads no problem, real 4wd trails not so much.

Re heating - we don't camp in the winter but a couple of trips in early spring and late fall have been fine. With overnight temps in the low 30's I'm just trying to heat it a little to take the chill off and make it a bit more comfortable, not trying to keep it at 70. Heck of a lot more comfortable with a heater than in a tent in the cold and rain. I'm still using the tank that came with it a year ago and probably wasn't full then so I'm not worried about the cost of the propane.

We've been eyeing a 16 foot Scamp for years. All the advantages of a tent trailer without the disadvantages except they are pricey and push bit more wind depending. Almost bought a 2008 last year with the double bunks for the kids but decided to stay with the tent for a couple three more years and make another decision then. In the meantime we're focusing on overnights away from the car with our 4 year old.

http://www.fiberglass-rv-4sale.com/s...ilers-for-sale

Scamps are cool and all but far less space inside than your typical pop up. I wouldn't want to tow a scamp with my tacoma either, you'd probably want an actual truck to pull one, not that I haven't seen them being pulled by subarus.

Many Truck campers have room for at least 4 to sleep. The dining room table folds down for 2 adults to sleep. The majority of them have a cab over the truck cabin that ends up being storage in the day and bunk bed at night that 1 or 2 more can sleep (2 kids for sure). A few have a bench couch that can be used to sleep (like a futon) opposite the kitchen area.

Where to carry the bikes *vehicle vs camper) also can depend on if you want to only ride from the area you are camping. If they are carried on top of the camper, or off the back bumper of a camper (if it is equiped with a strong enough bumper) and you want to drive to a trail or area around to start the riding, then you need 2 racks or a way to put the bikes inside the vehicle or have to pack up the camper instead of leaving it parked and set up for the day.

If we had kids, yeah, a pop-up would be great. Especially when the weather sucks. It gives a great amount of room for how much they weigh. A friend of mine just go one that opens sideways instead of from the front and back. This is really nice because he doesn't have to disconnect the truck to set it up fully. It is a little smaller than some though. He has 2 kids and has been super happy with it.

I think that my problem with it is, I don't need all that room, and we tend to not camp in the same spot for multiple nights that often. We are giving it one more shot this summer and if it doesn't click, we'll be selling it and getting something different. That's the hard thing about campers, there's so many different options and nothing is good for everything or everyone. I like simplicity and not having to set up or take down all this crap and worry about the thing I'm towing.

As I stated before, many of our spots are off road where it starts to get sketchy for those little tires and tiny suspension, seriously, check them out before you buy. Bearings, axles, and leaf-springs are the downfall of these little trailers. You have no idea how much it'll cost you to tow that little box back to a shop when a leaf spring breaks, especially if it is "off-road" which is basically off pavement for tow companies. I learned the hard way. Of course, there are some fancier trailers with beefy suspension out there, but they ain't cheap.


Another idea for bikes: have a hitch mount welded to the rear bumper and use a hitch mount rack, or even a spare tire mount. I know a few people who have done this and say it works well, but I'm still a little skeptical.

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Originally Posted by RShea

Where to carry the bikes *vehicle vs camper) also can depend on if you want to only ride from the area you are camping. If they are carried on top of the camper, or off the back bumper of a camper (if it is equiped with a strong enough bumper) and you want to drive to a trail or area around to start the riding, then you need 2 racks or a way to put the bikes inside the vehicle or have to pack up the camper instead of leaving it parked and set up for the day.

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this is a good point i hadn't thought of.

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

If we had kids, yeah, a pop-up would be great. Especially when the weather sucks. It gives a great amount of room for how much they weigh.

As I stated before, many of our spots are off road where it starts to get sketchy for those little tires and tiny suspension, seriously, check them out before you buy. Bearings, axles, and leaf-springs are the downfall of these little trailers. You have no idea how much it'll cost you to tow that little box back to a shop when a leaf spring breaks, especially if it is "off-road" which is basically off pavement for tow companies. I learned the hard way. Of course, there are some fancier trailers with beefy suspension out there, but they ain't cheap.


Another idea for bikes: have a hitch mount welded to the rear bumper and use a hitch mount rack, or even a spare tire mount. I know a few people who have done this and say it works well, but I'm still a little skeptical.

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the kids are really the #1 reason for getting one. otherwise, i'd spend the money on a new bike.
my buddy has an "off road" version w/ beefy tires and suspension but obviously more $. he tends to go off road more though and i think we'd be sticking around the normal campgrounds for now. sounds like taking a used one to a mechanic to check out the tires, suspension, etc might be in order.
my buddy also talked about welding a hitch on the back for his bikes but like you mentioned, i'd be a little skeptical too.

As someone said above, there are compromises with every camper. We have a 13' burro (similar to scamps). Tows easily with a v6 Mazda, although it's tedious into a head wind. Less room than a pop up, but easy set up. One nice thing is you can just pull off the road and have a nap or a meal, and then be on your way. Can't tow into rougher road accesses, but its nice to just drop the camper and go with the pickup. Because the truck bed isn't taken up by the camper, we have tons of storage space.

We got ours cheap, so it's been fine. I keep dreaming of a sportsmobile type van, but its so much more money in both purchase and maintenance.

Since Scamps and hard shell campers were mentioned.

They make some nice ones in Canada:

http://www.safaricondo.com/en/caravanes_R1713

I have some friends who have a Burro and they love it, but once again, a little tight with kids.
Personally, if I had kids, they'd be sleeping outside in their own tent, far away from me, so I could "practice" making more kids with their mom. But I digress. ;)

Definitely get it checked out by someone who knows about these things. I had a guy come over and give it the once over and pointed out a few things and fixed a few things. It was totally worth it.

Also, make sure you have AAA or some kind of roadside insurance for the damned thing because I'm not joking, these things break down all the time. Not to scare you, but nothing ruins a vacation like a broken down camper and a few hundred in towing and repair costs.

Our story goes like this: Caper broke down a few miles up Sand Flats road in Moab. Definitely not a gnarly 4wd road, just a dirt road with maybe some washboards. Broken leaf spring, tow company charged an "Off road recovery" fee (which was BS), and fixed the leafspring. Luckily, we had a truck and slept in it for a few days while it was being repaired. Of course it poured rain the whole time.

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

I
Another idea for bikes: have a hitch mount welded to the rear bumper and use a hitch mount rack, or even a spare tire mount. I know a few people who have done this and say it works well, but I'm still a little skeptical.

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I've done that on a trillium trailer just get a receiver welded to the bumper for 75$ and then use a hitch mounted bike rack, buddy put a gusset on the square tube for a little extra strength but since you aren't towing anything it doesn't have to be crazy strong

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

Of course, there are some fancier trailers with beefy suspension out there, but they ain't cheap.

Another idea for bikes: have a hitch mount welded to the rear bumper and use a hitch mount rack, or even a spare tire mount. I know a few people who have done this and say it works well, but I'm still a little skeptical.

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Originally Posted by criscam

my buddy also talked about welding a hitch on the back for his bikes but like you mentioned, i'd be a little skeptical too.

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The second tent trailer we had was Fleetwood E1 (google it) -- one of the supposedly beefy offroad style ones. It did have a burly frame and beefed-up tires/springs/shocks, but the interior and general construction quality was the same shoddy crap of the more-typical small-wheel/tire trailers. It was a disappointment.

On the bike rack on the rear of trailer: be careful if you go this route. I looked into it, and decided against it. Two issues to address: (1) rear bumper on tent trailers tend to be very weak C-channel. Welding on a hitch means spanning the length of the bumper, essentially replacing it with a sturdier piece of metal. (2) Bike rack + weight of bikes can unbalance a tent trailer; watch your tongue weight. Tent trailers are light enough that adding 100-150# (hitch + rack + bikes) on the rear of the trailer can lighten up the tongue weight to where sway becomes an issue.

Our second trailer, the offroad one, had roof rack channels which we used to mount Yakima racks for bikes. You do have to unload the roof before cranking it up -- you'll never be able to reach the top to unload anything once it's all up.

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Most of my comments have already been made, but here are a few. I have owned a 13' Scamp and now have a popup.

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Originally Posted by skimaxpower

I've frequently seen racks on top of the pop-up trailer. People put canoes, bikes, skis, fishing poles ... all kinds of stuff. I don't know what the weight rules are, but it seems like a convenient place for the rack. Less reaching than on top of the car, and better aerodynamics. On the downside, I assume you must unload the heavy stuff before popping the top up.

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As others have said, putting them on the roof of the camper restricts your riding; hard to drive to a trailhead. That said, I went with a ProRac which does this (sortof) because I got it cheap. But if you have a few hundred to spend on a solution, I would not choose the top of the camper.

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Originally Posted by yellowstoner

Scamps are cool and all but far less space inside than your typical pop up. I wouldn't want to tow a scamp with my tacoma either, you'd probably want an actual truck to pull one, not that I haven't seen them being pulled by subarus.

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Maybe with a 4 banger, but with a 6 the Scamp should be no trouble; no need for a full size truck at all.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

I've done that on a trillium trailer just get a receiver welded to the bumper for 75$ and then use a hitch mounted bike rack, buddy put a gusset on the square tube for a little extra strength but since you aren't towing anything it doesn't have to be crazy strong

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El Chup addressed this one; it can be a good solution in the right circumstance but caution is advised.

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Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

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I wanted this one to work so badly, but the bikes hit the trailer when turning. It's a common problem with that "solution".

I have spent an insane amount of time researching/thinking about the bikes issue, there is no one answer (but like I said, it's easier if you are willing to throw a few hundred $ at it). Happy to go over any option and its considerations.

As for popups in general, I like ours. The 13' Scamp was great but too small for 2 adults, one kid, and 2 80-lb dogs. A 16' SCamp would work, but barely. That said, I am very tired of the hassle of popups, I would like a 16 or 17' hardside trailer now, because every trip usually involves 3 setups and takedowns (set up at home to pack, set up at camp, then set up at home to empty/clean). And yes, I know we could be more efficient with that.

Another thing to consider: if going into significant bear country, popups don't offer much protection/

Also, if you get one, there some forums that are devoted to pop-ups which can be invaluable in figuring out stuff, maintenance, etc.

We bought a used 1996 Coleman Sun Valley last year and love it for our family (wife, plus 3 kids). Two king beds plus a dinette that drops into a bed. It has extended our camping trips from 2 nights max up to 5 at least. Comfortable, dry, warm sleeping for the kids and wife meant no more complaints. It also saved a couple trips since it rained all day and we would have left if we were stuck in a tent. I towed it with a truck last summer and hardly knew it was back there. This summer will be with a minivan with airlift and weight distribution hitch, which other have said is fine.

I highly advise against the bumper mount for the bike hitch. Previous owner of ours had one and it ripped apart while he was on the freeway. I looked at his design and welds and they looked fine. The large overhang on the back of the popup amplifies the bouncing force quite a bit.

These things are great if you can find a used one that doesn't have mold in the canvas or rot in the plywood floor. Also, be careful about adding things to the roof. Leaks are the number one complaint of these, so if you find one with a non-leaking roof, I would not mess with it. I have a rack installed on mine that I don't want, but I'm not going to remove it since it does not leak.

Lots of options with these things regarding toilets/fridge/air conditioning/showers. Personally, I don't want a toilet inside the camper, showers take up valuable space, and we don't cook inside because I don't like cleaning up bacon grease off the ceiling.

PopupPortal.com and PopupExplorer.com forums are great resources for repairs/mods/maintenance.

Get one, you (and your family) won't be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by SorryBro

We bought a used 1996 Coleman Sun Valley last year and love it for our family (wife, plus 3 kids).
Lots of options with these things regarding toilets/fridge/air conditioning/showers. Personally, I don't want a toilet inside the camper, showers take up valuable space...

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I don't either (and wouldn't use it if I had it) but a buddy told me that if you have a toilet in there, you can claim it as a second home on your taxes. can anyone confirm this?

Thanks again for all the responses. Been looking in the local classifieds and are still trying to find a wknd to give one a test drive.

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Originally Posted by criscam

Thanks for the responses. Due to $ and the fact that I don't have a truck right now (SUV), we pretty much have to go the pop-up route or just get a bigger tent.

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Not necessarily. What about something like this? We have friends who love theirs.
http://www.rei.com/product/851638/sp...er=70576072960

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Originally Posted by yardsale2

Not necessarily. What about something like this? We have friends who love theirs.
http://www.rei.com/product/851638/sp...er=70576072960

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I wouldn't want that as my sole camping option. You're restricted to places where your good tent spot is right next to where you can park the car.

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Originally Posted by yardsale2

Not necessarily. What about something like this? We have friends who love theirs.
http://www.rei.com/product/851638/sp...er=70576072960

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Originally Posted by Danno

I wouldn't want that as my sole camping option. You're restricted to places where your good tent spot is right next to where you can park the car.

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What Danno said, and this sort of design comes with more drawbacks than simply using a big tent, which is cheaper to begin with:
- have to detach whenever you want to move the vehicle -- same drawback as a truck camper (break down to move it), same reason why trailers have an advantage for "base camp" camping. Set it up once, leave it, drive away for the day, etc...
- gaps between tent + vehicle = insects and rain get in.
- potential for paint damage on vehicle from tent rubbing on it

And the biggest -- why would you want to be able to crawl between your vehicle + tent anyway? Don't see the benefit.

If you have the space in your vehicle, get a big tent and a freestanding canopy for shade/rain. The EZ-Up ones are nice, but there are cheaper knockoffs too.
http://ezup.com/

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Originally Posted by El Chupacabra

What Danno said, and this sort of design comes with more drawbacks than simply using a big tent, which is cheaper to begin with:
- have to detach whenever you want to move the vehicle -- same drawback as a truck camper (break down to move it), same reason why trailers have an advantage for "base camp" camping. Set it up once, leave it, drive away for the day, etc...
- gaps between tent + vehicle = insects and rain get in.
- potential for paint damage on vehicle from tent rubbing on it

And the biggest -- why would you want to be able to crawl between your vehicle + tent anyway? Don't see the benefit.

If you have the space in your vehicle, get a big tent and a freestanding canopy for shade/rain. The EZ-Up ones are nice, but there are cheaper knockoffs too.
http://ezup.com/

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I agree w/ both of you. that seems like the anti-tent trailer. I guess maybe good if a bear starts sniffing around in the middle of the night but...

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Originally Posted by criscam

I agree w/ both of you. that seems like the anti-tent trailer. I guess maybe good if a bear starts sniffing around in the middle of the night but...

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Not my choice either but it works for some. We are opting for this. http://escapetrailer.com/trailers/the-17-foot-escape/ Sweet but a different price point from other options discussed.

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Originally Posted by yardsale2

Not my choice either but it works for some. We are opting for this. http://escapetrailer.com/trailers/the-17-foot-escape/ Sweet but a different price point from other options discussed.

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so, that's a new entry into the Scamp/Casita world? Does it have advantages over those 2?

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Originally Posted by Danno

so, that's a new entry into the Scamp/Casita world? Does it have advantages over those 2?

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X2

Looks much more luxurious than a Scamp for about 5k more?

I am no expert, but there are many Casita owners trading to get into these rigs. From my perspective as a skier the answer is yes. Unlike Scamps or Casitas, these units offer options which make them useful for cold weather use. You can purchase insulated windows, extra insulation over the trailer body, and have the bottom of the trailer coated with spray on foam insulation, thus keeping the gray, black and fresh water tanks inside the heated space. The tanks themselves can be set up with heaters. Also offer a 160 watt solar panel for charging 2 6v batteries for "boon docking". Comes, with heater of course. If shit happens and waterlines freeze, it might survive without breakage as the water lines are made with pex type plastic. Donno about the waste tanks although we will probably add some rv type anti freeze to at least lower the freezing point.

One option relevent here is to consider a used unit and retro fit it for winter. I think you could have double pane windows and spray foam insulation added after market.

Cool. A friend of mine winterized his 16' Scamp, put lots of insulation on the inside and under the floor. But I don't know about his windows and the tanks.

I used to own a 13' Scamp, I loved that thing, but it was too small for 2 adults, a small child, and 2 big dogs. A 16'er would still be tight, but doable.

http://www.fiberglassrv.com/
Boler was the most famous of those FG trailers, lots of those types out there used and cheap

May be a bit literal but there is the jumping jack trailers here in SLC, UT. Set up is in seconds. Can load moto bikes/rafts/big gear on top for toy transport.

http://www.jumpingjacktrailers.com

Wife and I just picked up this Jayco Baja off road pop up last night. I was hesitant, but she really wanted it as we are tired of waiting out monsoon storms in the cab of the truck.

Will be used for base camp style camping. The thing has more ground clearance than my truck, so should be great for the passes here in the San Juans.

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Happy Campers are happy!

gnarly, that thing looks great for family of four bonding.
we ended up renting one this past fall one wknd to test drive. overall good experience. everyone slept well despite low 30's that night. the table was busted and that actually proved to be somewhat of a big inconvenience but got some money back. unfortunately I may have to decide on either a tent trailer or new mt bike this spring. pretty sure I know how that's gonna turn out.