http://www.revelstoketimesreview.com...252079441.html
CMH Revelstoke was the outfit :(
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http://www.revelstoketimesreview.com...252079441.html
CMH Revelstoke was the outfit :(
so a bunch of proffessional guides designated a heli pick up point a safety, but they were wrong ...
how many other pick up points and safteys need to be re-examined ???
If global warming is driving increased percolation at this time of year, maybe most of them? Maybe some of the old assumptions no longer hold up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadam
RIP to the victim.
Sounds like they were lucky it was only one. RIP.
Wow.
Looks like it's too late to be too early for anyone to leap to ridiculous conclusions.
This has been a bad year for avalanches in the B.C. Interior, with slides happening in places you wouldn't expect and going much bigger than expected.
Earlier this winter a helicopter was sitting at a pick up spot when the air blast from an avalanche caused it to flip over. The pilot and one passenger were both sitting inside. Fortunately, nobody was seriously injured, but it could have been much worse. Could you imagine if it was running and there was a group of guests crouching next to it waiting to get on?
that would be crazy sitting at the pickup spot, probably all totally jacked and then probably unbelievably watch an avalanche come down on them. amazing it only got one.
well yeah. i was just thinking about how at that point your guard is probably down from your run and all that adrenaline and then bam.
Alpha angle?
Vibes to family and RIP
The avalache guru here has been warning us about if things are gonna slide then they're gonna slide big. It's still the case. Its because of the prolonged dry spell earlier in the year followed by a relatively cold/dry winter.Quote:
Originally Posted by hortence
Its been relatively cool lately so I doubt this slide would be due to increased melt, although I do feel that the wilder extremes we've been experiencing is contributing to larger avalanches. A lot of areas with old growth forest (400+ year old trees) getting wiped out... Obviously proving that scientifically will be extremely difficult, and therefore the idea should be completely disregarded.
Cmh Adamants is very conservative. What Shadam said. Rethink safe routes and zones this year. I'm convinced this will happen in the Coast
Low probability high consequence is the word at my local ski patrol
I started playing this crazy game in Fernie. every year we were faced with the same story. "worst avy conditions for years" ok so it was usually a result of wet warm snowpack down there.
but do you remember the young lady that worked for island lake who died in a avy when she went to check the snow study plot one morning. obviously it wasn't a safe place for a snow study plot and certainly not a task that should have been performed solo.
everyone underestimates "safetys" and trimlines ...
human nature too. people feel safer going to repeat spots or like that girl going to the study plot. you let your guard down. we all look for those signs. new loading, sun/direct heat, wind but I think the most overlooked is weather system change. this yr in particular its been a major factor. if you skier trigger something you may just rip out a pocket. with a huge weather system and subsequent rapid temp elevation the potential for a huge area to rip out exists this yr. we all make our decisions early and are aware of the factors of daytime heat because of the sun but its not quite as apparent if the vis is the same but temp rockets up with a system. it seems like a lot of fluctuations this yr with the jet stream ripping down from the north cooling some areas more than normal. it'd almost be useful to have some sort of warning alarm indicating rapid temp spike. just a thought. by the way 45 is much ot young. vibes.
Aidan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadam
I know 4 people in the last 4 years who haven't come home. That year 2006 was a bad year too
The reason you crouch REALLY close to the heli is exactly this - in theory it can tip over and you still stay under the blades. I have never tested this in practise.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexC
Anyway, this is very sad news. Vibes to family and friends
Vibes....for one person to be under 3m and the others relatively OK, when it sounds like they were all there waiting, sounds terrifying.
If it came down and took out a couple hundred meters of old growth at that elevation, that would be ~1/150 year event at least? As much as can be said about bad decision making, risk assessment, etc, it kinda sounds more like really shitty luck.
And Lee, wow. That's rough.
An hour to dig him out, I can only imagine the physical and psychological exhaustion that must have set in. 3 meters down through mixed debris including trees...
Sent from my VS980 4G using TGR Forums
The victim was Jannik Inselkammer, head of Augustiner Brewery in Munich. RIP.
But decision making also relies on intuition and other non-scientific factors. It may just be a matter of realizing that the current data to date may not be as informative as it was in years past and to try and adjust accordingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by theshredder
Most, if not all, people would consider themselves in a safe spot if the hazard was Mod/Con & they were behind a 150m x 250m patch of big trees. Have to put this down to WTF / bad luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by canwilf
In a year like this with deep slabs ripping out New paths, you have to consider the" forest thru the trees" and determine where the avalanche will run, regardless of the trees that are already there. We saw this example on the Iron Mask slide path in February 2014 outside of Copper Mountain... just ripped the mountain a new one.
Concretejungle brings up this exact point: alpha angle. A year like this, you can't really rely on past history to dictate your safe zones. It requires new thought and tools each time you go out. Think about alpha angles and be prepare for the worst.
http://www.avalanche-center.org/Educ...lpha-angle.php
Pretty sure you'll be safe on the couch...unless you're in Missoula
Jesus, this compounds the tragedy ten fold! RIP, ill drink an auggie in your memoryQuote:
Originally Posted by Silly Euro
if indeed this was a greater-than 100-yr event, then perhaps it ran beyond the alpha angle, per the article....Quote:
Originally Posted by newbreak
it'll be interesting if the incident report discusses this specific subject.
rip
I'd like the know the alpha angle. I use that shit all the time when figuring out safe zone.
i'd use the alpha angle and add a bunch. i'm a slow runner.
ya but then youre relying on weather models. garbage in garbage out. the snowpack reacts instantly to factors that are hard to measure directly like thermal radiation. Even in the absence of a major change like surface air temperature, direct sunlight, or winds, a change in upper level temperature or clouds could cause a subtle reorientation of forces within the snowpack and destabilize it. There is only anecdotal evidence that this is the case, and I don't think that will change soon, but I think its much harder to disprove that possibility than to prove it. and unfortunately that leaves you with only your intuition, if you're paying attention, since your body and nervous system will react to suble changes too. like an increase in sweating, or external factors you can pick up like more frequent tree bombs or snow melting on dark surfaces etc.. might be good to bring a solar/infrared pyranometer and watch for spikes, particularly in years like this where the chances are very low but the consequences are very high. just to be sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by grinch
Alpha angle=opening yer eyes and knowing what yer looking at. Wide birth works also:)
rog
A guide? How bout yer everyday joe? Joey can't call it alpha angle? Better chance for not becoming a statistic if you call it something else?
rog
Yes of course. All that. I forgot tree bombs etc. it's just that atleast a few of these incidents happened during changing weather systems like this incident. It was the start if a warming trend. I was thinking we put a lot of faith in our assessments in the morning then our intuition as the day progresses but when you're sweating climbing a mt or in a heli it's not always as apparent that temp has shot up. I won't pretend to know how heli ops reassess as the day progresses in regards to co policy but I think it's something that seems to catch people. Even if your not involved in an incident. We've all found ourselves a little late cresting a baking south face to drop on the other side. Combine that with a warm front ripping in and the huge consequences we have this yr it could be that straw that broke the camels back. Traveling in the BC is like playing your best poker hand in certain situation and an rapid temp alarm could be of help it seems. A wake up call. 12-2pm isn't always were the biggest temp spike happens. Like I say, just a thought. An incident hit a little closer to home this yr and took out a friend and great guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by theshredder
Your own skin and having to unzip yer coat or take off layers should tell most any bc traveler a tale or two about the days weather/temp changes.
rog
Oh right. The obvious. Nobody ever forgets that. 12-2 stats son
the obvious kills, son.Quote:
Originally Posted by grinch
rog
Nice . I was trying to suggest temp spikes not necessarily warm temps but rapid heating or in some cases cooling. This yr a lot of these aren't sluffs that build to weight overload and step down but rather sudden whole slope collapse on buried basal layers running long and fast. Temp spikes. The spikes man the spikes
unusual wx creates unusual avalanches. this has been an unusual year for many regions. so why are so many getting caught off guard when increased guard should be up? voodoo.........
rog
/anxiouslyawaitsinvestigation
oui
rog
ah.. no.Quote:
Originally Posted by flowing alpy
I heard some more info re this, 3rd hand so take it with a grain of salt.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesp
Apparently there were 2 (or 3? can't remember) groups in the basin, skied the run multiple times before it slid. Group 1 (ie the group hit) just arrived at an upper pick-up. They were hit by the air blast not debris, & were all sent flying many meters through the air. Guy who died was thrown further down a gully (?) & triggered (?) & ended up buried ~1000m further down the mountain. They had chainsaws digging him out as there were so many trees etc buried with him :eek:
Meanwhile Group 2 was at a lower pick-up in the same basin, heli was there loading & took off in a hurry (doors open, half loaded) to avoid being hit by the slide &/blast. Debris flowed either side of Group 2's pick-up point which was on a rise, they were un-harmed.
Still sounds very WTF, & definitely sounds like it could have been much much worse.
No snow nerd reports of alpha angle or percolation :rolleyes: