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I've been having a number of different boot fit problems this season, the worst being constant shin-bang from too much room in the cuff.
So, I'm considering giving up on my 3-4 year old ZipFit liners and getting some Surefoot foam liners.
What have your experiences been with foam liners (Surefoot or otherwise)?
Hmmm, I assume these were foam liners, I can't remember the brand name (it was one of the two big replacement liner brand names--Thermo-somethingorother?), but years ago I had what might have been foam liners as a replacement for the stock Lange liners (packed out), and they were fine. Lasted about three seasons (150 days? About the same as the Lange liners). Nice fit, after they were heated they were basically a mold of my foot.
The kind that I had, on its own, wouldn't help with shin-bang, you'd need to insert something else to fill volume.
edit: and I've been advised, by people who would know, to never set foot in a Surefoot. I think it's good advice, although their liners are probably fine.
Surefoot footbeds SUCK! Can't speak for the liners. I have custom liners (conformable) and footbeds done by Snowcovers (whistler, vancouver). I think they're the best bootfitters in North America.
Anyway, just make sure you have someone who knows what they're doing and bring a flask of whiskey. If you get good ones they can be the shit. I'm just getting mine broken in (about 30 days) and they are still tight as shit. As long as I don't crank them down too much my feet feel great. I also, had a bunch of different issues with customizing stock liners and things weren't working out. Foam liners take care of all of it. My tongues are ridiculously thick, so I don't have any shin bang issues. I'd say go for it, especially if you are getting a good deal.
The foam liners I've had and the foam tongues I've had have been good but can get foamed too tight. The newer liners I've foamed are much simpler to use and easier to get a good consistent result with. I don't like the ones that just vent out the front. It's better to have the hoses coming right out so you can see what's going on (in) better. Make sure the foam kit isn't too old as some funky things can happen when the old chemicals mix. A shelf life of about a year is it I'd say to be safe. Foamed one guy with an old kit and the foam just set up awful. Replaced the liner which he was fine with and so was I since I knew the foam might not work. He got a great deal to boot.
As someone said having someone who knows what they are doing is key. Blow through both tubes before starting to make sure things are flowing Ok and get alignment set up first and clamps ready to squeeze off a tube in case one side doesn't flow equal at the start.
I don't know the surefoot liners but some of the foam ones are really solidly made and much more substantial than a regular liner with lots of leather.
conformable lines = surefoot.
the surefoot liners are just conformables with a different graphic.
really it comes odwn to someone knowing what they are doing foaming you.
surefoot does have a 100% gaurentee... so if they suck, get your money back. i personally really like mine, for what it is worth.
edit: oh and surefoot won't foam you w/o one of their footbeds......
In my experience filling the cuff area by using a foam liner is just a short term fix.
Changed to a boot designed for people with skinny chicken legs, used the same foam type of liners and no probs so far.
no personal experience with Surefit liners, I know they are $$$$ Dont they only sell these through their "boutique's" ----(you would think they know what they are doing?)
good advice from all of the above(esp. the whiskey! :D )---the key is to find someone who knows exactly what they are doing---this should'nt be a prob. in your area (I would think) cause I can think of few things worse than the torture of a fucked up foam fitting (and wearing the results)--make sure that whomever does it stands by their work- and is willing to go the length's required to give you the fit that your paying for(without taking you to the cleaner's) ------Your skiing on Lange's WC's right? cause their cuffs are lasted for people with Monster Calves!!!!! :p
I've been skiing in zip fits for years and have had that problem as well this year. Insta Print makes a conformable shin pad for $20-$30 that you slide down the tongue of your boot as you put your foot in. It may be somewhat of a quick fix, but that quick fix has worked for me every day this year so far. It took up volume, did not put me in the back seat, and is cushy on my shins. The only place I've ever seen them is in Snowmass at the shop where I'm working right now. If you need help locating some of these, let me know.
I always have my tongues neoprened as soon as the initial fit is done. Locks my foot down better and for some reason neopren is like the perfect pad to negate shin bang. This came after my first 100 day bumps season. That being said, I am seriously thinking about a full sure foot liner for next year, mine are packed out, and I hate losing my toe nails every year for the performance I want.
Love my conformables! Super comfortable with great performance. I do have to pull them out after each ski day so they dry properly.
[Bomb Chuckin]
Note: Tis a poor musician who blames his instrument. Don't lean back so much.
[/BC]
:FIREdevil :FIREdevil :FIREdevil
:tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:
The foams I've had break down with time. Much better lifespan with silicone.
But if you do it, make sure the fitter cups your toes, as the foam will drive your foot forward.
Quite a few years ago, I had a pair of Dynafit 3F foam insert boots. The fit was amazing for about 1 1/2 years and then through usage, the foam started to break down. I ordered a new liner and got refoamed and all was well.The boots are still in my attic. I tried them on this fall and they still fit well.I was driven to the foaming process by my low volume foot.Foaming did the job. My new boots have the moldable liners. That with a custom foot bed does me good. I use a pretty good boot fitter for being in the mid-atlantic area. Foam may work for you but probably with the amount of days skiing you get, you may have to replace them more often.
Unsolicited advise -- I've had the chicken leg in a boot designed for a 5'7" 200lbs Autrian fo life. It was worse when I was younger and needed a microscope to find my calf muscle. I tried foam liners and they didn't cure shit. They were cold as hell and very firm. I had the best luck with modifying the upper cuff of the boot (Langes). The best fix when like this.
Move the buckles so that they are about half way when fully tightened
Cut away where the upper cuff meeting the lower cuff so that is doesn't bind and can wrap around your drumbstick
Cut the insides of the upper cuff in there is too much overlap
[/shitty explanation]
I've had my comformable(surefoot) liners for three full seasons(about 200 days) and they're still holding up great. I went through the whole shin bang thing because I couldn't fill the space around my calves with factory liners. I found that the new surefoot liners with a booster strap solved the problem. The foam they use is very firm, not too warm, but lasts a long time.
I will concur that their footbeds suck. I've heard that they try to match your footshape to fifteen or so predetermined foot shapes the best that they can. They are not a true mold of your foot. I don't even use the footbeds they made me buy when I got the liners.
You should try one of those boot drying gizmos with the two tubes and the fan. I got mine for $50 and it drys my liners-inside the boot- in about 90 minutes. It packs down to the size of a nalgene bottle and it produces little heat, so I can turn it on and pass out for the night and not worry about cooking my liners. Very handy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Zero
^^^^^^^^^^ Drystix are even better.
My old boots smelled so bad, in the spring, I tied them to the roof of my Jeep.
(yes, i realize that is totally irrelevant)
6-10 hour dry time vs. 60-90 minutes. My boot dryer kicks your boot dryer's ASS!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by phUnk
If you're stopping in to dry your boots during a long lunch, maybe. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by bossass
I'll take no noise, no moving parts (that will eventually break) and uber-portable over whatever you described, any day.
Yea, I too was a sufferer of shin bang. So deeply were my agonies that I would gouge out my shins at the end of the day, rendering the air with shrieks of pain as I peeled the bloody long underwear from my sparsely folicled shins. Damsels flew from the rathskeller when I produced my oozing tibia and drew away in liftlines subsequently.
I tried shaving. I went to boot gurus who danced, wailed lamentations, invoked deities to protect my shinbones, brought mullahs who inculcated me with the ways of elixirs, moleskins, technique and threatened my very manhood with accusations of liking the "back seat".
But it was all for nought. Or nougat. Anyway, my shins still bled and hurt like a bitch. And I would be out a few hundred scheckles to some loser who was regarded as an Oracle.
Then, on a whim, I tried some flexons. It was a new day, the heavens sang, birds fucked madly in the air, the powders parted on the high t and my shins stopped bleeding!
So unto you, I say, try some new boots. Old flexons can be had in second hand shoppes or maybe you can work your spancered steeze into some Kryptions.
It's just a thought.
FebreezeQuote:
Originally Posted by splat
It works, whether cig smoke from the bar, armpit funk, queef juice or plain old stink foot
I was hoping to get in Kryptions, but the smallest key size they made this year was a 26.0, which is 1 shell size too big.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster Highmen
Looks like ZipFit liners in some new Nordica Dobermann 130's softened down to 110 might be the solution, unless I figure out a way to last the rest of this season and cherry pick something softer or more kryptic next fall. Ugh.
OK, then, howzabouts you finda some cheapa flexons, eh?
Good call, but I think there going to be just about impossible to find locally such that I can try them on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster Highmen
I have had a set of conformables that I foamed years ago, and I just now retired them this year, I even kept the same liners when I replaced my shells (same solly boot). Now that I have my adrenalins, I am thinking about foaming them too. Just not sure how well a foam liner will work in at boots thou. But I would defintly gt foam, it has been the best most comfortalbe fit I have ever had.
You knew I was going to say this, but I bet Daleboot can hook you up. They're not stiff, but if you're considering Flexons...
Six years on mine, still with original liners. Did I mention they weigh about the same as a burly AT boot?
Strolz are similar to Dale and they make a boot specifically designed for chicken legs too. They also do a race model. There are better and stiffer shells on the market but a better fitting albeit slightly softer shell could be the best option.
Maybe someone here has a 25.5 Flexon Boot that phUnk could try on, then if it fits he can mail order or pick something up on ebay etc
My roommate in JH looked high & low and all over the friggin' town for a pair of Flexons, to no avail.Quote:
Originally Posted by phUnk
We road tripped to Boulder for Halloween and in Casper fucking Wyoming of all places, I spotted a pair of Flexons at a thrift shop.
$5 and they were his. Talk about a score.
True story.
Maybe the DI has some laying around? Worth a shot.
Are you thinking of Superfeet footbeds that are pre made that you buy in the store? Or the cad/cam Surefoot footbeds? The surefoot foams are made by conformable as well but are slightly modified to foam the tongue as well as the rest of the liner. For a while, the surefoot conformable was one of the few liners that foamed the tongue, this may have changed in recent years however.Quote:
Originally Posted by bossass
Some know this, but I am skiing with comformable foam liners and surefoot beds. I don't ski without the footbeds and putting on any type of boot now without my liners is unnecessary punishment. I have 5 sets of the surefoot thotics(3 sets for street shoes, pair for alpine boots, pair for at boots). I have close to 300 days on my liners in the last 3 seasons and they have been the best performing boot and most comfortable boot I've had. I had to tweak the liner a little when I first foamed them but since then the only problem I've had was that just recently the heal pocket has been getting a little lose. I'll get a new shell and liner next season. As far as I'm concerned, the liners are worth their weight in gold.
Sorry cmsummit, but this is just plain wrong about predetermined foot shapes. All the footbeds are made to your foot and your foot alone. This is easily proven with one of the digitizer machines. Every once and a while a pin will get stuck on the digitizer and the thotic will get milled accidentally and there will be a large depression from that stuck pin. As for them not working for you, all of them are guaranteed, take them back and have them remake them for you. The foot is a strange thing and sometimes the footbed needs to be remade.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmsummit
edit: i have some pretty serious chicken-legs as well, i am a monkey after all. holy fuck i'm tired.
Foam liners is the best thing that ever happened to my feet. And probably to my skiing as well.
I have the conformable comp kind. They differ from the conformable "other kind" in that it has two tubes going in at the back and two tubes coming out above the toes. This is better than the other kind with only two tubes going in (and no going out), because it prevents air bubbles to be formed inside the liner.
Get a pro to do the work! Plastic toe caps are essential when making them. Also pads should be attached to vital parts of your foot (ancle bones and other sensitive spots) before foaming. It is an art to get the right pressure in the foam when adapting. If there is too much pressure the boot can easily get too tight. It happened to me on my right foot, and I ended up doing surgery on the liner by cutting it open and removing some of the foam before stitching the liner up again.
Durability of foam liners are said to be somewhat longer than for ordinary liners. IMO they are a bit colder, maybe due to the tighter fit. But for me they are worth the money for sure.
Rather than make the boot smaller why don't you make your calves bigger? [pause to let laughing subside] Seriously, it may not be a quick fix but something to try over the summer.
Try this routine , it was for a world cup racer and worked so well they had to re-fit his boots.
Try searching that site (t-nation.com) using the word calf and you'll come up with another half-dozen calf routines. In less than two months I put about an inch on my calfs, now I don't have to crank the top buckles nearly as much. A twice a week routine consisting of a heavy/low-rep day (6-10 sets of 4-6 reps) and a high volume day (300-500 total reps) using various calf raises can work wonders.
I highly recommend Intuition liners - www.intuitionsports.com
I got the alpine power wraps (http://www.svst.com/page3.html) for my Denali XT boots.
best investment i ever made in terms of comfort and increased stiffness, and their customer service is great.
Foam is a tricky thing. So many variable. I have been foaming boots for over 12 years, worked at Strolz last winter for the month of January in Lech and probably have foamed 1400 conformable liners over the last 12 years. Elevation has a factor in when to cut off flow and when to pull the tubes. Foot shape, how many days a year you ski all play a role. Foam is firm. It is not some kind of soft plush feel. I foamed some world cup guys (Thomas Grandi) and generally used less isocyanide to make the foam more playable so the foot could articulate better.
You can buy foam tongues seperalty, which will save you money. As for Surefoot, the machine makes every orthotic differntly, to each specific foot, no question. These machines are used at some of the biggest orthopedic clinincs in the country, walter reed medical center, southern california orthopedic institute, mayo clinic and many others. Remeber, a machine or computer is only as good as its operator. If you are in PC, go and talk to Steve Owen, he has the most experience in that company and will dial you in.
If you are going to get some, I would do it this spring, since the price of the liner is going to go up by 20-30% next year due to the strength of the Euro.
Drop me a pm with any questions, but for shin bang I would say the foam tongue solves that problem 90% of the time.
my Surefoot orthotic sucks. don't know about the liners.
my next attempt will be Harb technologies. They are based out of Dumont CO and apparently do an amazing job.
That's a good idea, because all I do over the summer is sit on the couch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stikki
Anyone having probs with stinking clothes and shoes?
Just put them outside in a cold night. The bacteria dies and your shoes smell like new in the next morning. Or put em in da freezer
If your current approach, be it training hardcore or doing nothing at all, isn't working then you need to try something different. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is insanity.Quote:
Originally Posted by phUnk
You mean like trying new liners or something? Why didn't I think of that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stikki
I had conformable foams (not surefoot branded) made two years ago and they had foamable tongues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski Monkey