Crossing over to sea kayaking any advise?

I have been a canoer all my life. You get a few thousand miles or more under your paddle and that stroke gets real good, especially if you have a ZRE CF paddle fit to you.

So I have lived just up from Willard Beach for a dozen years. I paddle my canoes on the ocean all the time. I really enjoy the ease of launching and landing especially on ledge shores. I feel confident cruising swells in and around rocks. The problem is wind paddling solo limits my range and since the Maine Island Trail is out my back door I have to cross over.

I will probably buy a Pygmy Coho if it passes visual inspection which I expect it will. The hatches were not part of the kit and if anyone has any advise on hatches, I am all ears.

I most likely will buy a Lindal Kinetic Wing paddle. Since my stroke for the kayak is not developed yet and I have a good sense of bracing; seems like it would be smart to start with this, rather learn a flat blade and then later convert.

These are CL purchases and if it does not work, I am sure I can resell for little to no loss.

The two biggest concerns I have about kayaking are the stroke and the seat.

Any good tips on what helps developing a good kayak stroke beyond miles under the keel?

I know I will need to do more work on my tight hamstrings to lessen the stress of sittlng low. Any good sites or comments on setting up my seat in the boat?

Any really useful gear or advise you have found?

I think you'll be able to make the transition fairly easily, at least I had no problem translating my halfway decent sea kayaking skills to paddling a canoe. The most important thing is to rotate through the core, instead of just pulling with your arms (which I'm assuming you already know).

Nice boat that Pygmy, whoo!
-I would be afraid to bang the shit out of it on rocks

I have a 17' Wilderness Systems Tempest and beat it to hell.

The seat angle can pinch my hammies and restrict blood flow, numbing my feet and legs.
-different in every boat
-I use a small thermarest seat cushion to alleviate this

Otherwise the only other advice I have is to take a 1/2 day course on water exit/entry.
-could save your ass

I also wear a dry suit out here, every single time, because it is deadly cold and dying isn't cool when you are out having fun.

A feathered blade is key if you will be paddling in the wind, otherwise just accept that there is a learning curve to the stroke and you will be sore for a while before you work it out.

Camping out of the yak is just the best, Enjoy!

Yeah I am familiar with the different paddle stroke and it definitely has held me back in making the transition. Actually, I have spent the last two years looking closely at the Dave Kruger Seawind decked canoe. At this time I have abandoned it due to both the cost and the feeling that the boat just has too much windage as a dedicated ocean craft. I also looked around the web at ocean canoe outriggers and although they are very fast and can be great fun in the surf, they did not feel like the right craft either.

One of the good things about buying the boat second hand-fellow built it when he was staying with his dying father and never really paddled it-is that I do not have the sentimental attachment to the build. I will have no problems putting on a wear layer of s glass if the boat needs it.

The Lendal paddle is a bit more spendy then I had hoped, but I really like CF paddles and it sounds like they make a descent blade. If the handle does not fit my hand I will pass on the purchase. I think the length is right. I know from reading Lendal's site that I can adjust the feather, but it appears it is adjustable as either RH or LH depending on the variant purchased. I know most use RH, but have no idea which one I would use. I paddle a canoe equally well on either side with a historical preference to the left side.

I think the biggest challenge will be setting up a comfortable cockpit and training my body to the limited seating.

There are a number of camping spots I can reach in an easy days paddle from the house. If I take to it, then I will be on the lookout for a used drysuit. I have a set of farmer johns I can use to bridge the gap.

All I know is get a piss bottle. Have fun paddling. If you ever want to paddle Prince William Sound get in touch.

what do you mean the hatches aren't part of the kit - no hatches at all? (and I'm guessing then, no internal bulkheads?) if so you'd possibly want to add a bulkhead for and aft, then cutout and fab some hatches yourself. easier than making the kayak yourself, not that hard

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Originally Posted by BFD

All I know is get a piss bottle. Have fun paddling. If you ever want to paddle Prince William Sound get in touch.

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I most definitely will be in touch if I ever make my way up that way. Same goes for you if you ever come over to this side of the continent.



Hugh,
Well I am seeing the actual boat in person this weekend. My understanding from the owner is that he had not put the hatches in. They actually are an addition when you ad the kayak kit from Pygmy-guessing he did not include them in the original purchase. Looking at the build video, cutting and installing hatches is the last step and there is no bulkhead work. I would very much prefer dry hatches and was just fishing to see if there were any thoughts on improving my odds of this.

Several friends built Pygmy's and they served very well, mostly northern lakes around yellowstone. The hatches are i think the last step, shouldn't be a big deal. And the plans usually always have glass or kevlar cloth on the bottom. The way the resin soaks into the ply they are pretty tuff when built to spec.

Compared to a canoe the cockpit looks tight, but you can make it reasonably comfy. Second the class on using paddle float/pump to self rescue. Or learn to roll, way easier than a damn canoe! :D

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Originally Posted by BFD

If you ever want to paddle Prince William Sound get in touch.

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You may get a buzz from me on this, if I do a ferry trip this Summer.
-I've never been to Cordova but would love to check it out. Hear there's some good fun to be had.
(everybody I know that's gone over there can't remember at least one day of their trip).

Offer extended out here as well, to any of you all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BFD

All I know is get a piss bottle. Have fun paddling. If you ever want to paddle Prince William Sound get in touch.

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My preferred methods are either the golden rainbow or pissing in the bailer, no extra piss bottle needed.

And a trip up to the PWS is definitely worth it, it's a pretty awesome place. I spent a few weeks paddling the western side back in 2009.

I have been paddling WW forvever recently took up seakayaking and IMO Sea kayaks need to be properly outfitted like a WW boat to be comfy, an have efficient stroke and if you got any hope of pulling off a roll

hip pads to make you tight in the boat and adding tilt to a flat seat bottom, I put 2-3" of mini cell on either hip (skinny fucker eh) and I raised the front of the seat bottom on my necky seat by 5" to get my knees up into the top edges of the cockpit where I glue more sheets of minicell, I also take pieces of blue ensolite foam to fold up & put under the thighs

Last may-june we did some big crossings in the hecate straight where we were stuck in the boat for 5 hrs, you just suck it up, if I wanted comfort I could have taken an AK cruise

Nothing beats a Werner kalliste in CF bentshaft , they are beautiful light EXPENSIVE but ... worth the $$$ imo/ime

the foam core blades float when you put the paddle in the water, I would go 220cms which is short by most peoples standards but short is way easier on your body

Happy paddling just don't get your water bottle mixed up with your piss bottle

I started paddling whitewater kayak years ago, then transitioned to marathon kayak, then surfski. Over the past few years I've been paddling more marathon canoe - both C1 and C2. I've also spent a little time in an OC6 and a little in an OC1.

What are you wanting to do with the boat? Open ocean paddling/camping? Going fast? Long distances? Racing?

After having paddled a kayak in big, open water, I'd prefer a surfski in all conditions (except maybe self support camping, but maybe even then). They are generally lighter and safer in open water. The wing is a bit to get used to, but is so much more efficient...

However, if money was no object for me, I'd probably buy an OC1. What was it about that boat that didn't feel right?

Seth

The problem with a wing paddle is there aren't many people around Maine using once who could coach you on how to use it effectively compared to a regular or greenland stick. I know a grand total of one person who uses one, and he only uses it in his wildwater boat.

With a normal or greenland paddle I'd be willing to teach ya, except I've only got a pos sea kayak that we swiped from my uncles island when he owed us some money so I'm a little short on the teaching platform side.

The Pygmy looks a lot like the Willow that the kids on our 5 week trip build, and hatches are pretty easy on those. They're not the most watertight so be prepared to invest in a ton of dry bags. You could probably double up on the thickness of the seals in order to get them drier. If it doesn't have bulkheads, I would definitely make some out of 2 inch minicell, which you could get from Lincoln in Freeport.

You want a second set of eyes when you take a look at the boat? Home's down river from Whitefield, but I'll be in Freeport over the weekend when I'm not in my creekboat.

Make sure you're gonna be able to sit in it this weekend. Twist your core side to side like taking a stroke and see if there is any tightness anywhere. Some of the tightness can be exercised away, other needs and outfitting change, and some need a new boat with a higher knee position than most home built wooden kayaks have. I can't sit in the boats the kids build for more than an hour before having problems.

I'd probably yank out the foot braces pretty quick before putting in a beanbag or foam block and some good knee braces. Foot braces drive me nuts after a couple hours, let alone 3 weeks.

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Originally Posted by Fenris

They're not the most watertight so be prepared to invest in a ton of dry bags. You could probably double up on the thickness of the seals in order to get them drier. If it doesn't have bulkheads, I would definitely make some out of 2 inch minicell, which you could get from Lincoln in Freeport.

Make sure you're gonna be able to sit in it this weekend. Twist your core side to side like taking a stroke and see if there is any tightness anywhere. Some of the tightness can be exercised away, other needs and outfitting change, and some need a new boat with a higher knee position than most home built wooden kayaks have. I can't sit in the boats the kids build for more than an hour before having problems.

I'd probably yank out the foot braces pretty quick before putting in a beanbag or foam block and some good knee braces. Foot braces drive me nuts after a couple hours, let alone 3 weeks.

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commercialy made seakayaks use a neoprene hatch cover under the deck hatch and are pretty dry IME, do these boats you make have neoprene hatch covers kind of like a mini spray deck with no hole in the middle, if not you can probably buy them for a standard sized hatch

Seakayak outfitting on commercialy made boats suck in general IME and not many sea kayakers bother to outfit their seakayaks the way WW paddlers do for a solid connection to the boat cuz they are "just seakayaking" but IMO this is a must

if your boat has a rudder the foot braces are the rudder pedals ...how do you deal with that?

Ifthe hatches added are usually a cutout section the opening below is usually a lip made of recessed glassed plywood with some minicell/weatherstripping for waterproofing. The other option is a protruding hatch fabbed larger than the opening. You can do other types of hatches; wooden kayaks are about looks not performance imo.

Hatch install instructions No neoprene on the Pygmy's style of hatches.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

...snipped...
if your boat has a rudder the foot braces are the rudder pedals ...how do you deal with that?

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The Pygmy doesn't have a rudder, and I prefer a skeg over a rudder anyways.

the other options are a clc style hatch
http://www.clcboats.com/shop/product...hatch-kit.html
less fiddly, less appealing. No idea the relative water proofness. or a VCP hatch
http://www.clcboats.com/shop/product...yak-hatch.html
perhaps smaller and less flexible size wise, more h2o proof, might not actually fit the deck radius at all


get good float bags; don't try to make your own. it sucks.

I got one of those smaller round VCP hatches on my Elaho for on the go day storage area directly behind/to the right of the paddler and it does that job well without leaking you would want to go big for a main hatch to be able to get the gear in but they are a lot of $$$


http://www.clcboats.com/shop/product...hold-down.html

with this^^^ kit it looks like you just cut the deck and the piece you cut out becomes the hatch, the picts look very nice/very sleek and its way cheaper/nicer looking than the rubber hatches

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

http://www.clcboats.com/shop/product...hold-down.html

with this^^^ kit it looks like you just cut the deck and the piece you cut out becomes the hatch, the picts look very nice/very sleek and its way cheaper/nicer looking than the rubber hatches

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That's the kinda of hatch the Pygmy has instructions for.

The hatch cutout tends to loose it's bend and move more towards flat, lifting the sides up and away from the bent deck. It's a small enough difference, that makes it hard to put enough pressure on the hatch with straps to make it take it's shape back.

The trick to make those seal well would probably be to steam the hatch and give it slightly more bend than the section it came out of, so the center would be lifting up and away rather than the sides.

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Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

or a VCP hatch
http://www.clcboats.com/shop/product...yak-hatch.html
perhaps smaller and less flexible size wise, more h2o proof, might not actually fit the deck radius at all

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These are awesome if you can find one that works with the deck radius. I would suggest attaching them from inside the boat, so there ain't screw points or bolt ends just hanging down around the hatch attempting to tear apart every bag you shove through there. They do need to be 303'd pretty often.

Little late here but unless you are a competitive racer stay away from wing paddles. They require a specific technique to use and are not brace friendly at all. I have one that only gets used for wildwater races on easy to class III stuff only.

You want a standard curved power face paddle, depending on your size 220 is usually a good length for lot of folks. I have a werner CF paddle that I love for touring. A nice wood paddle would also look good with a wooden kayak.

The hatch issue has been well covered by others but I also like a small day hatch right behind the cockpit, very nice to have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenris

The hatch cutout tends to loose it's bend and move more towards flat, lifting the sides up and away from the bent deck. It's a small enough difference, that makes it hard to put enough pressure on the hatch with straps to make it take it's shape back.

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cutting a couple ribs of plywood and glassing them to the underside of the hatch will fix that

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Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

cutting a couple ribs of plywood and glassing them to the underside of the hatch will fix that

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I was thinking that^^ some wood under the hatch to keep the curvature and make the hatch stronger

you gotta consider what you want to put in a boat and make sure your hatches will be big enough, like the biggest thing i can think of is a GSI dutch oven or wiggling a 2 person tent in its stuff sack into the boat?

on the paddle thing drop one end of a glass bladed paddle in the water (like your are taking a stroke) it will sink, drop a foam core paddle in the water the blade doesn't sink, wood will also float but usually CF is much lighter I always suggest people take a few paddles out and test paddle them for 15min at a time but nobody ever does

I had a 230cm Harmony with largish blades (got it cheap) and in spite of a extensive paddling background it was fucking painful of course I didn't realize this till i borrowed a buddies 220 aqua bound not a great paddle but the shorter length/smaller blades made paddling so much easyier on the body

A local guy has the wing paddle with which he goes pretty fast on his the sit ski but I can't see keeping that stroke up for 5 or 6 hrs of touring, I can't see it being very touring friendly and being in a "wet boat" all the time like for weeks on end would get ...wet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

cutting a couple ribs of plywood and glassing them to the underside of the hatch will fix that

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I think the kids had tried just gluing them to a rib or two. More glass was out of the question as they were already going to be a day late for their launch if they were to make it to Blue Hills. In 2.5 weeks. Having bad conditions at the wrong point of the build can seriously impact the rest of the trip, so some corners are often cut.

You should definitely watch this https://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/pa...ey/id406964317 Two guys in AK build Pygmy Cohos and paddle them from Skagway to Seattle in true dirtbag style. Beautiful and hilarious.

There's a lot of Pygmy's here in the PNW, and most have lots of kevlar on the hulls.

I've kayak-camped for multiple nights with a Pygmy owner - no hatches, he just used float bags for extra bouyancy and to keep stowed gear from shifting around.

I don't think you will like the Kinetic Wing paddle either. If nothing else, you will hate it on windy days. A straight-shaft Werner Kalliste has worked well for me - not cheap, but really light, adjustable enough, just fine for bracing and works very well for low angle strokes and fairly well for moderate angle strokes. I've never liked the curved shafts - can't move grip position much.

There's all kinds of seat and outfitting options to get yourself comfy for long periods. Check out Northwest River Systems http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product_list.asp?deptid=1764 Just get yourself to the point when you slide into the seat you feel like every move of hips will transfer to the boat. Knee pads under the deck make good bracing when things get rough too

Have fun.

This is why I belong to TGR-great stuff all.


If that small hatch can fit, I like the looks of that. steam bending and glassing in strapping under the hatch sounds like it could be pretty bomber and the extra weight does not impact the exterior smoothness. Really would like the hatches to be the best I can make them.

As far as deck rigging, forward of the cockpit I want to attach a compass, hold a map and maybe a day bag. Aft I would like to rig a spare paddle holder. I would be very happy if I could switch from my cf paddle to my spare for landing and vice versa for leaving. An attachment system for the spare paddle that can allow swapping paddles while seated would be the balls.

Read some more on the Lindel paddle and I do not want it-I want a paddle I can rely on in open seas for balance. I also really enjoy riding swells in and around rocks and it does not sound good for this from a review I trusted and echoed here.

Looking at the AT Quest as my backup/launching/rock garden paddle, it is $115 here, but it only comes in the 210 size. I think I can live with that short size. May just start with this paddle-but this next one looks so good and you need two paddles.......

Werner Cyprus for $356 in 210 and 220 lengths $380 in 215 here. I think I want to paddle at a high angle with more rapid turn over style as that mimics my canoeing style.

Would very much like to save $24, but guess the 215 is correct for me. Good thing is both paddles are from bc so return is easy. The Cyprus is a small bladed, high angled, bent shaft, light carbon paddle. I stand 5'9", but have a long back-always fit tall packs and in car seats I sit tall. My arm length is average for my height. Boat width is 23".

Thinking tall body add, medium waste boat slight subtract, arms neutral and high angle paddle subtract-215. I know although length is quantitative the personal interaction is not. Given that what do people think of the 210 AT Quest and 215 Werner Cyprus?

Hmmm no hatches (I was fiddling with my post when you replied) I like the sounds of that a lot. Maybe just 1-3 D-rings to lash the bags in.

Thinking I would rather add s-glass than kevlar to the boat. I can search that more later.

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Originally Posted by cat in january

Hmmm no hatches (I was fiddling with my post when you replied) I like the sounds of that a lot. Maybe just 1-3 D-rings to lash the bags in.

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That's basically it - he had a slug of web tie downs and bungie nets inside. he also added some nylon pockets in the far bow & stern during layup so he could rest the ends of stuff like tent poles, then lash the rest to the hull. I think he laid out all his gear stowage before building up the deck - joked that he would have to sell the boat if he changed out any of his kit

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Originally Posted by cat in january

I think I want to paddle at a high angle with more rapid turn over style as that mimics my canoeing style.
?

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I have paddled WW with short high angle sticks for a great many years but I prefer the low angle CF Kaliste for touring cuz I can keep up the low angle stroke all day and I use a 220 at 5'8"

really unless you try a couple of different styles preferably back to back ... you will just be guessing

the paddle is the thing I hold in my hands all the time, when I have been out all day having to paddle without being able to land the last thing I think about is saving a few $

I now own the kayak. The builder ended up with some air bubbles on parts of the long seam where the upper half and lower half are joined. I am looking into using a dremel to excavate and then buff out the cavities. Fill and then refinish with 4 0z 2" tape. There is one spot in the cockpit and another on the bow that need fiberglass work. Guessing 10 hours total, which often means 30 in my math.

I will then work on building a good seat for myself.

XXX-er, ended up buying a paddle very close to what you described-straight shaft 220 low angle paddle. LL Bean's which is right up the road and has great warranty had an Aquabond Sting Ray Hybrid Paddle for $190.- a carbon shaft with a molded blade. The paddle felt good in my hands in the store-nice light paddle.

Water is beginning to warm up.

Will search Vimeo and Youtube for videos on kayak handling-if anyone knows of good ones shout out

Found this set-seemed pretty good http://vimeo.com/paddleordie/videos

edit: ordered spray skirt, 5" deck gear stash, knee braces, and hand toggles. I will visit Lincoln Canoe for Minicell foam for bulkheads and thoughts on my seat.

Congrats - sweet boat.

This book is pretty good for explaining paddling strokes, bracing and rescue techniques. After that, paddle a lot. No doubt your canoe experience will make the transition easy
http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Sea-...f+sea+kayaking

Learn to exit/re-enter the boat without help before you get beyond the point where you feel good about swimming back. I've lost count of the "Help, I've fallen out and can't get back in!" rescues I've had to do in flat water...

Any paddling clubs in your area? They usually have skills development classes, and you can pick up skills on their group paddles.

Watch the film Paddle to Seattle for touring inspiration

Kayak outfitting.com has great prices and selection of minicell, fast shipping too.
http://www.kayakoutfitting.com/

SO I already have the high$$$ Kalliste touring paddle but I still need a spare paddle, I was thinking of just buying the cheapest AQB that still had a composite shaft but a buddy who works at the local paddle shop suggested I look at the cheap werners, so I ended up buying the Werner Skagit FG IM for 130$us, carbon shaft/FG molded blades /the werner adjustable ferrule/ same low angle blade shape ... basicly the lowest $ version of the kalliste in a straight shaft

http://wernerpaddles.com/paddles/tou.../skagit_fg_im/


I took the Skagit out today swapping back & forth with the high end Kallliste, the blade feels much the same when pulled thru the water as the Kalliste probably cuz it looks to be an exact copy but in molded plastic/FG, it doesn't float as well as an expensive foam core blade but the blades do float, the werner adjustable ferrule on a paddle this cheap is damn good, same with the carbon blend shaft so I was pretty damn impressed with what werner has done on the lowest end

So what does 130$ vs 475$ buy you, the difference in weight is 200grams, also the $$$ paddle is stiffer , also the $$$ foam core blades float SO well, probably the biggest thing I feel is how the profile of the shaft fits in my hands and with that neutral bend I don't think my thumbs will blister as easy, also the bent shaft is easier on the wrist

Sweet backup paddle - damn nice value.

I used an old Camano for my spare. Heavy, but fine otherwise. I found the weight difference gets really noticable after 3 hours of paddling....

Glad you like the bent shaft. I could never get used to one, mostly I think because I like to move my hand position a lot.

yeah I think the low buck Werner's are > the low buck AQB's which have been the low buck stick I would buy, that ferrule is the same as on a 475 $ paddle ...VERY nice having infinite adjustment, a buddy has put so many miles on an older werner carbon with the old hole & button that the joint is wearing out

yeah when you are grinding out the miles the extra 200 grams gets to be a lot of weight and you appreciate the nicer stick, same with the nice hand position but is the cost worth it ?

when my Kalliste got stolen in my car I called up the shop and ordered another Kalliste without missing a beat

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Originally Posted by refried

Kayak outfitting.com has great prices and selection of minicell, fast shipping too.
http://www.kayakoutfitting.com/

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..and they stock(or at least used to), the thin, multi-layered, multi-density stuff that's soft to plop any weight(any portion of your legs) on.... Put it on top of the higher density blocks to soften to save your circulation in a close fit in the hips..

Don't know if its been mentioned but learning how to navigate would be my first suggestion.

a year between posts is kind of weird eh

I have been getting my buddies full size marine charts photocopied at the printing store which is way cheaper but the downside is they are not so water resistant (wide celo tape is yer friend), I put them in a map case which I beiner to the deck lines along with a marine compass, I also print off the tide charts for where I will be, so I alwasy know where I am

I got a water resistant VHF radio for 125$ I listen to the coast guard channel every night to find out what the weather will be so I don't get caught out in shit or I can plan to be in a good place to sit out a storm, still shit happens 2 years ago the storm we acurately scoped and braced for carved a new stream channel thru our camp and last month the storm we sat out blew the sil tarp to pieces ... glad we chose to stay on shore for those. That "red sky at night sailors delight " saying is bulshit BTW

LOL....nothing like trying to catch up on threads..jeez...;-)