airbag effectiveness/accident in LCC

Utah Avalanche Center posted up an interesting blog on the actual statistical benefits of airbag usage that I found intersting.

http://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-...g-closer-truth

The article lead me to submit some coments related to my avalanche accident from earlier this winter. After taking the time to type it all out, I thought I would post it up here for others to learn what they may. Here is the text I submitted to Bruce Tremper, UAC:

I thought I would relate my experience in deploying my airbag this december
in a skier triggered slide in West facing Scotties (this avalanche accident
was reported to UAC by myself and Lindy on December 26, 2012)

I had a decent size slab, about 2.5 feet deep by 200 feet wide break off mid
slope, roughly 38 degrees. UAC incorrectly recorded the slide as 200'
vertical, but it was 200' in width. I immediately deployed the airbag as I
saw the slab fracture and begin to slide. The crown line was just a few feet
above me when the slab broke. The width of the fracture meant that I could
not attempt to ski off of the slab, I was instantly sliding downhill with
large blocks of snow all around me. Because I was at the very top of the
slab, my instinct was to self-arrest, and let the debris slide downhill
beneath me. The airbag seemed to help keep me above the moving debris, and
to keep me upright. I dug my edges will all my life, sliding faster and
faster down the mountain as the slab accelerated rapidly. I managed to slide
slower than the avalanche, and after five seconds or so, the majority of the
moving snow accelerated away from me. I was able to stop completely, and
watch as the slide exploded into a stand of aspens a few hundred feet down
slope.

I am certain that without the buyancy of the airbag, I would have been fully
englufed by the avalanche, and would have certainly suffered severe injury
due to trauma hitting the trees downslope. As it was, my bindings held, and
all I suffered was a sore knee and a good dose of ptsd. In hindsight, I
think that a whippet would have really helped my efforts to self-arrest on
the bed surface. I was able to self-arrest by the narrowest of margins,
clawing and edging like my life depended on it. A whippet or axe would have
made a huge difference. But it was definately the airbag that gave me a
fighting chance to stay upright, and allow the heavier avy debris to flow out
beneath me.

Please that others may learn from this close call of mine. FWIW, I would
rather have an airbag than a beacon at this point in my backcountry career.
The airbag can really change the trajectory of an accident, whereas a beacon
only helps to pick up the pieces once the shit hits the fan. end quote.

Its been a few months since the incident, so feel free to MMQB the shit out of it. I'm happy to answer any other questions you may have, as I didnt go into full detail on the context of the situation. Needless to say, it was a good powder day, last lap of the day, familiar heuristic traps at work. Glad to be alive and uninjured. :smile:

Glad to hear you're okay Ate'em!

Does your brand pack put the airbag in front (like an ABS) or behind your head? I've wondered if an airbag behind the head might tend to float a person face down (but still on top of the slide), as if in whitewater rapids.

I was using a BCA Float 18.
I hear people question its bag orientation, but there was nothing problematic about the shape of the bag.

Afterwards, it was awkward skiing out through the trees, just because the bag is so large that it wanted to hit tree branches. But it didnt compromise my field of view, or push my head forward at all. ymmv.

The pack carries like shit and bruises my collarbones, but after it saved my shit I cant really think of selling it. I'm attached to it now, for better or for worse.

Thanks for your post!

Were you wearing the hip loops? And you do know there is a release valve on that bag right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gwat

Were you wearing the hip loops? And you do know there is a release valve on that bag right?

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definitely wearing the hip loops, I think that is non-optional for proper functioning.

i was so bugged out by the slide that i didnt want to deflate the bag for the remainder of the descent, in case something else went wrong. in hindsight, that was more a reaction to the fear than a good idea. though it all worked out fine in the end, didnt damage the bag or anything. and ultimately gve me a bit more perspective on whether the bag hindered visability, which it certainly did not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

A beacon helps you find others in addition to others finding you. That's a fair different functionality than an airbag. Other than emotionally justifying your purchase, not sure what your point is.

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thanks for stating the obvious, captian KOOK
i dont mean to imply that i would be negligent to my partners by not having a beacon to locate them.

my point is that an airbag changes the very nature of the accident and its consequences in a way that a beacon only leads you to the victim.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ate'em

my point is that an airbag changes the very nature of the accident and its consequences in a way that a beacon only leads you to the victim.

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If 50% of users are saved his point is valid Hugh. A more accurate statement would be it can alter the path the victim takes and where they end up at the end of the slide, whereas the rest of the avalanche safety tear just helps you get unburied faster or be able to stay buried longer. But its just symantics.


Sent from my ADR6425LVW using TGR Forums

http://www.heatherlende.com/dark-news-bluebird-day

of course i have to ask,

hey ate'em. would you have skied that slope that day had you not been wearing an airbag?

glad it worked for ya.:)

rog

I'm kind of curious as I can't seem to find the original uac report of this avvy incedent is there one?
It would seem odd to not share the instabilities you encountered that could help other bc users
at the time, but to come out months later singing the praises of your safety gadget.
Also kind of curious what kind of gear one carries in an 18 liter pack.
I'm still in the perfer for my partners to carry a bit more than I can fit in 18 liters worth of gear,
and be proficiant in companion rescue/ first aid, point of my bc career. Other than that I could give a fuck if you carry an abs avalung whippets or rope with a beach ball on the end of it.

I think we should all remember the title of the thread and not the other "things" contained.

In this case the ABS did work.

Take that and leave the rest.

Or not.:wink:

http://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-...g-closer-truth

as i always point out:

"The other part of the discussion is the often-overlooked issue of what we call “risk homeostasis.” Each gizmo we buy to increase our safety usually cause us to increase our level of risk at the same time. For instance, when we added seat belts and airbags to cars, yes fatalities decreased, but it also allowed us to drive faster, farther, crazier and talk on our mobile phones at the same time. So safety measures usually work but not nearly as well as we would hope because people just increase their risk (and “utility”) at the same time. In avalanche airbag case, we will also get more powder, more fun, and more risk in the bargain."

rog

never mind found the original uac report, but my I would rather have my partner carry a pack with extra clothes, a decent 1st aid kit, spare binding parts, the 10 emergency essentials, webbing,rope/equipment to rig a companion rescue sled and the capibility to bivey overnight or until als can arrive stands
IMHO in a injury situation or if your partners were involved in a slide and missing gear bout all that airbags gonna b worth is a potentaial signaling device.
I have a hard time believing that the abs space in an 18liter barbie backpack didn't require removing items that could be just as life saving or dramitically change post accident scenarios.
In all the injury incidents Ive been involved in including watching someone take a 1k ride on box elder I'm fairly certain having an abs really have been anything but extra weight.
glad your'e okay and i'm still curious as to the contents of your pack and if it changes in more remote terrain like broads millb mill creek etc where just whippin out the cell phone to call for help isn't as viable as scotties/white pine?

here is the report to uac from dec 26-

http://utahavalanchecenter.org/avala...che-white-pine

18 litre pack= shovel, 1st aid, snow saw, water, sando, extra layer, tape/ties/rope/multi-tool, space blanket
wouldnt be pretty (never is) but I could overnight with this, assuming no immediate life-threatening injuries.

in more remote terrain the main thing that changes is my risk tolerence. not that accidents cannot happen anywhere. I dont even own a cell phone, much less rely on it in the backcountry. I wish the pack had a bit more capacity, but I have jacket pockets, helmet pouch on the back of the pack, and have never left stuff at home that I though I would need. The pack is crammed tight, and I think it holds more than the 'number' may indicate. Having been out with folks using 'larger' ABS packs, their contents and mine did not differ, and their packs seemed 'full' as well. remember, companies decide on the 'number' not some omniscient god of gear. it works for me to carry a day trip worth of essentials.

i posted this now, in the context of tremper's article, for the sake of discussion. i know the shit sling that is tgr and didnt really want the hate when the accident was raw in my life. now, i could care less. i want to learn, and help others to come back safe from their adventures. ymmv

no hate or shit slinging ment just a difference in bc philosphies based on experiences and what gear matters more to each individal
i wouldn't feel as safe trying to cram the contents of my 42l avalung into 18 20 or skip the # a significantly smaller back pack
just as you now feel safer with an abs.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is on the scale of things I like about my bc partners both longtime and newer havin an abs pack on their backs is still pretty low like bottom of the list.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skifishbum

42l avalung

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Holy shit that's a lot of stuff to carry on a day trip. I only use mine for overnights/multi dayers, hut trips with lots of good eats to lug in.

I always have reservations about people I see hauling that much stuff around just for a day.

Carrying 40lbs of mostly unnecessary "emergency gear" is just as much a case of

Quote:

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Originally Posted by icelanticskier

“risk homeostasis.”

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As an airbag IMO.

legitimate question sfb-
what am i missing in my pack?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

a foam pad

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Just sit on your airbag. Wind bag.

was gonna by an abs last year
spent the $$$ on a semester long snow science class
made me feel safer
even in the tram line
:tongue:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

but there's alot more that can go wrong.

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No shit....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ate'em

legitimate question sfb-
what am i missing in my pack?

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got milk?
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y19.../ak/Jak080.jpg
cerally aint nothin missin from any pack I dislike being cold and despise not having things that have proven usefull especially when the shit hits the proverbial fan
hell one of the uac guys likes to quaterlap w/ a shovel and probe and leave his pack at the bottom of the runout zone.
hell if we all rocked trempers ego non of us "volunteer slope stability testers" would need abs or fat skis we'd just float above it all
:fm:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skifishbum

hell one of the uac guys likes to quaterlap w/ a shovel and probe and leave his pack at the bottom of the runout zone.

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heaven forbid someone that has spent about twice as long and then some more than you have out there that actually skis they way he skis unlike no other with a style and approach all his own.

you can pick out his tracks anywhere, quarter lap or not. he wastes no space and keeps his feet in the best snow possible. his obs and reports have saved many many lives over the years.

why the fuck do you care how he chooses to ski a slope anyways? i'm sure he doesn't give a rats ass that you tour with groups of dozens and pivot skid that modified power wedge of yours all over wasangelas. LOL!!!

to ate'em, you carry far more than i do in that lil pack of yours. maybe i should downsize to a fanny pack:)

rog

ate'em- thanks for sharing. I find it informative regardless of the useless debate that has followed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by icelanticskier

as i always point out:

"The other part of the discussion is the often-overlooked issue of what we call “risk homeostasis.” Each gizmo we buy to increase our safety usually cause us to increase our level of risk at the same time. For instance, when we added seat belts and airbags to cars, yes fatalities decreased, but it also allowed us to drive faster, farther, crazier and talk on our mobile phones at the same time. So safety measures usually work but not nearly as well as we would hope because people just increase their risk (and “utility”) at the same time. In avalanche airbag case, we will also get more powder, more fun, and more risk in the bargain."

rog

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Although Tremper's bottomline conclusion fit within the range of the more detailed data analysis I conducted (although the super-detailed Canadian data set wasn't available for me in the spring):
http://beaconreviews.com/transceiver...tz.TAR30.4.pdf
... I was disappointed by his qualitative references to automotive safety.
My quantitative segue into improvements in auto safety has many qualifications, but the bottomline is:
"Out of all 36,339 automobile deaths in 1965, the 2009 survival rate would have saved 28,171 lives."
We should be so unfortunate to see such a disappointing result in avy safety!

at the risk of shooting myself in the foot, I'm gonna answer a Rog rhetorical question-
would've I rode that line without the airbag? yes, the airbag didnt influence my decision making at all, IMHO.

what did influence my decision making was being out with 'experienced' partners. I ski a lot solo, and have a decent protocol of how to stay safe when solo in the backcountry. I left the trailhead solo that morning, but ended up joining with a couple on the skin track.

Had I remained solo, I never would have skied the shot that I did, and likely wouldn't have been involved in an avalanche. Take that for what it's worth, if you will.
I blew it, I succamb to others' judgement about what was appropriate terrain choices. I'll always speak up from here on out. Life is too precious to let others decide what's safe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ate'em

at the risk of shooting myself in the foot, I'm gonna answer a Rog rhetorical question-
would've I rode that line without the airbag? yes, the airbag didnt influence my decision making at all, IMHO.

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thank you.

Quote:

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what did influence my decision making was being out with 'experienced' partners. I ski a lot solo, and have a decent protocol of how to stay safe when solo in the backcountry. I left the trailhead solo that morning, but ended up joining with a couple on the skin track.

Had I remained solo, I never would have skied the shot that I did, and likely wouldn't have been involved in an avalanche. Take that for what it's worth, if you will.
I blew it, I succamb to others' judgement about what was appropriate terrain choices. I'll always speak up from here on out. Life is too precious to let others decide what's safe.

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thank you again. and folks think i'm nuts for thinking solo is oftentimes the safer way to go. i stick to that. more people=more problems.

rog

IME, solo means making uber conservative decisions. I can almost get the same level of adrenaline going skiing low angle trees solo than skiing some gnar with a group of buddies because I know that any small mistake could be catastrophic. So in this regard skiing solo could prove safer in the long run.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Two06

IME, solo means making uber conservative decisions. I can almost get the same level of adrenaline going skiing low angle trees solo than skiing some gnar with a group of buddies because I know that any small mistake could be catastrophic. So in this regard skiing solo could prove safer in the long run.

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oui oui

rog

Reinhold Messner doesn't think your nuts! Skill and conservatism win the day every time!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by icelanticskier

thank you.



thank you again. and folks think i'm nuts for thinking solo is oftentimes the safer way to go. i stick to that. more people=more problems.

rog

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by icelanticskier

heaven forbid someone that has spent about twice as long and then some more than you have out there that actually skis they way he skis unlike no other with a style and approach all his own.

you can pick out his tracks anywhere, quarter lap or not. he wastes no space and keeps his feet in the best snow possible. his obs and reports have saved many many lives over the years.

why the fuck do you care how he chooses to ski a slope anyways? i'm sure he doesn't give a rats ass that you tour with groups of dozens and pivot skid that modified power wedge of yours all over wasangelas. LOL!!!

to ate'em, you carry far more than i do in that lil pack of yours. maybe i should downsize to a fanny pack:)

rog

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WTF are you talking about?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sfotex

WTF are you talking about?

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fanny packs, you know, you've heard of em right? wicked light way to travel and whatnot.....

rog

that was quite the quaterlappin bobblehead e-oral happy ender.
Hope he didn't read it in the tanning booth while going for the oompa loompa look that could get sticky.
Ate em there's a tools of the trade whats in your pack thread in here
sure rog has cunted er up but like every slide zone thread some good
info mixed in with rojos desire to read his own drivel.
Your pack carry or don't carry whatcha want.
Practice beacon drills or pullin the oh shit cord.
Buy a high dollar beacon that tells ya slope angles or a high dollar blow up pack.
A fully loaded smartphone with every avvy ap ever created or a plb or spot device or nothing
meadow skip fully geared with the daily avvy report memorized or high mark gearless and clueless or somewhere in btween
Joe Strummer sums er up best
the one mans missionary in the dark is anothers autoeroticasphication in public only more elequant
Blessed are the friendless as they ski alone without the need for companion rescue skills or the hassles of sharing bc experiences with trusted partners
eh ROJ????

Ate’em,

We notice that when you described your accident you felt that the airbag seemed to help keep you above the moving debris, and to keep you upright and allow the heavier avalanche debris to flow out from beneath you.

We do a lot of avalanche airbag testing in British Columbia and we usually place our crash test dummies in the start zone. We can see the bright red airbags quite easily in the slides, and the avalanches almost invariably immediately begin to outrun the airbags.

We also notice that the airbags tend to slide toward the flanks of the avalanches, and we usually find our equipment within a few feet of the edge of the debris field. This tends to be the case even in larger class 2 and 3 avalanches.

Overall, in approximately 50 avalanche tests, airbags seek the uphill avalanche flank as the avalanche outruns them.