Sounds like inbounds? PCR? Any info?
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/24/us/cal...ies/index.html
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Sounds like inbounds? PCR? Any info?
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/24/us/cal...ies/index.html
Yep, in bounds, check kcra channel 3 out of Sacramento for video of crown, slide path, & recovery area. Happened in a highly visible area from the base lodge.
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http://www.kcra.com/image/view/-/178...412-LB-jpg.jpg
So... nobody checked out this avalanche in open terrain... until someone said to patrol "my buddy has been missing for a while..." and then they just did some kind of a hasty search of part of the deposition...
“We had been telling ski patrol ‘we’re missing a guy, we’re missing a guy,' but they didn't start looking for him until two to three hours later," said Katana Curven, a friend of the victim.
http://www.kcra.com/news/Snowboarder...9/-/index.html
I predict a lawsuit if that reporting was remotely accurate.
I sure hope so, but it doesn't sound like it. I can't understand why a mandatory probe line wasn't started with-in minutes of the event. VibesQuote:
Originally Posted by Summit
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Indeed. I don't want to come to a hard conclusion of blame without all the facts, but it sounds like patrol screwed up royally here. I'd have called for a hasty search, probeline and a mutual aid team with a dog and RECCO post haste, preferably delivered by helicopter... and I would NOT have waited for a reported missing skier/rider to respond like that in an open and heavily traveled area on a holiday weekend. There's other considerations and actions too, but not enough detail to comment or know if they were undertaken.
Tragic loss for that man's friends and family. :(
That has to be the only slide prone area within the resort boundary at that place. Maybe 200 vertical. Amazing. Terribly unlucky. :-(
Guaranteed suit ---> settlement out of this one.
So sad.
Edit: The more I think about it, the more this pisses me off--if true that it took that long to search the debris. So fucking negligent. That crown and deposition zone is in full view of the lodge and parking lot. Probably 200 yards up the hill.
That was by far my first question too.
Summit: this area is in COMPLETE view of the parking lot, the most obvious two lifts, and well.......pretty much EVERYTHING at this ski hill. No one missed it. I really can't comprehend how zero searching could have been conducted. I really don't. And the truth of the matter is that given the holidays and the population density on every hill right now.,,,,,,,,, Someone had to see that guy get washed while riding one of the lifts.
Summit and others - for context, this resort is pretty much one of the last remaining independently owned small mountain alpine ski resorts in California. I'd say Donner and Waterman are about it - every other resort I know of in the state is corporate/investor owned, as far as I know.
I say this because it's a hard business, and when you're scraping by on little margins to operate more for the point of having a small resort there than looking for continual ROI/development (the owner has operated one lift well into May/June in big years and hands out beers to some of the customers that want to ski 6 inches of corn snow on top of dirt and rocks) - I just can't see that you are going to be as sophisticated and internally regulated about stuff like cash flow management, tightly run O&M, and ... strictly trained patrol to follow whatever protocols are adopted there. This is not Vail.
It's just a tough and shitty situation all around. Tough snow cycle, tough business, mistakes made, ultimate price paid by a customer :(
My dad is buddies with the old owner. Can't remember who owns it now. PWDR has been trying to buy it for years.
But dude... you know where that slope is from the base, right? I mean, it's closer to the lodge than The Fingers from the base of the lift at KT. I mean, there's marginal... and then there's way over the line. I sympathize with them for the reason you just mentioned, but that only goes so far.
Bunch of thoughts on this one,
Donner doesn't shoot at all to the best of my knowledge. This is literally the only part of the mountain steep enough to slide, unfortunately with a huge terrain trap straight below. They are inconsistently open, up until the holidays and during storms they close the top a lot so it doesn't get a ton of skier compaction off piste. This early in the season with the snowpack being what it is this doesn't surprise me. Some friends said they kicked off some other sizable slides this AM there before this happened. Also even on the most crowded days they only have a few patrollers, usually when anything goes down they send an SOS over to Sugar Bowl.
And Lightranger, Doesn't Sugar Bowl now own what used to be the backside of Boreal that you can see from DSR?
We had a fun mini here a few Junes ago when they were the only ones open.
Oh believe me I know the terrain. I mean, you'd need to have ice in your contact lenses to not see that slide from the railing off the side of the grill.Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
I'm not asking for sympathy, just pointing out to folks who have no idea what "Donner Ski Ranch" is like that it's hard for them to do the job with the same level of rigor as other entities. Folks from out of town - seriously, we are talking one very small OLD run down lodge at this resort with 95% low angle terrain, and then there is this one gnar face right in the very front of the thing with complex avalanche terrain, located on a mountain pass that traditionally gets some of the most snow in the lower 48.
Clearly, they need to adjust the operating procedure and find a different model.
I don't know enough about their customers, but I almost start to think that at some point you just look at that face and say "not worth it" ("it" meaning liability and operating cost) and go permanent closure, like Kirkwood's Cirque. I would bet that 99% of their day ticket customers are never going to think "I want to go to DSR to ski a steep cliff band line!"
Makes sense. Or at least have it roped during funky conditions like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio
As bodywhomper said in the Tahoe thread, that's the first line most of us would hit. I've skied it multiple times. It's a fun little shot. Flat landing is lame, but can be negotiated. In this case, I'm sure that flat landing didn't help with the deposition zone.
I'm strongly suspect that's true. Any AC they do is likely just ski cutting and stomping on cornices. <---Conjecture, but I can't think of why they would blast. Just doesn't make sense for the terrain--other than perhaps our single example above. I bet that isn't the first time it's slid like that though...Quote:
Originally Posted by snapt
At Boreal, patrol cuts cornices and does some belayed ski cuts for their AC. There are only 3-4 spots that they control, and most of those are off the beaten path. I've seen a few little slides at Boreal from cornice drops.
Don't think so, but I haven't been in the know for a little while (taught at Boreal for ten years). Boreal's USFS lease covers along the top of the ridge. You and I as citizens own, and the USFS definitely manages, the Cedar Ridge area (looker's left from the Boreal parking lot) at Boreal--I assume that extends to the DSR side as well, but not sure. Cedar Ridge is the chair that is closest to DSR. It's just a short flat traverse to the top of the nearest DSR chair. Is that where you're talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by snapt
Auburn Ski Club owns the looker's right side of Boreal (Lost Dutchman lift for sure, but I don't know where the looker's left boundary line is), but I don't know about the backside (Quiksilver). Don't know why Sugarbowl would own anything on that side of Donner Pass Road though (other than their immediate parking area). Skiing down from Quiksilver straight to the road would put you out near the Sierra Club Clair Tappaan Lodge.
PWDR was (probably still is) interested in DSR for obvious reasons. They could create a big park-centric resort (with little vert).
I believe Mt. Baldy is still family owned.Quote:
Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio
No matter whether the patrol there is tiny or not, there's no reason they shouldn't have responded immediately,
the only thing i can think of is that everyone saw it slide, but noone saw anyone in it, and given that many eyes with no visual on a person they all believed it was nothing to worry about.
while i cant stand what happened i'd hate to see the last vestige of a family owned resort go down the drain because of it, which is likely.
and perhaps a stiff business price paid by the business.Quote:
Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio
Sorry, but the family-owned thing is not an excuse in any way. If you go to a small family-owned resort, you expect an old lodge, old slow lifts, bad grooming, no parking lot attendants, etc. But it can't be less safe.
Slid smaller last march and flushed a person over those cliff who got roughed up but survived.Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
What is the stock ticker for their insurance company? Sell sell sell :(
Thanks for that info snapt. Very relevant.
And just so it's said, I feel horrible for everyone involved. Really bad situation and I hope everyone can move forward in a positive way.
Last March was also a bad setup with the first real storm snow and slabs on top of that crust facet PWL we had. That should have been a "free lesson" to business operations ... something learned while getting off easy. Unfortunately, we (humans, who make decisions) don't always learn the lessons when there is not a strong price paid.
I agree with you Skeeze, it can't be less safe.
I'm more critical of the (apparent) decision to open the terrain at all, than the severe gap in rescue response, mainly because given the crown height and terrain hazards I'm (sadly, and in a macabre way) not sure it would have made a difference. I haven't read a detailed incident write-up but I am assuming that the rider was in open terrain, only because no one has mentioned anything about a closure??? This is a big piece of the mystery that hopefully will be answered in a county report.
I have a lot of other thoughts I started to work through ... but at this point it is probably best to wait for more facts to come in and be happy that we are getting to spend Christmas alive and in good health with those who we love.
Merry Xmas folks.
I guess we will find out if time had any effect on Steven Andersons death. If he had been dug out 15 or 30 min after the slide would it have made a differnce? I hope not.
I am sure that in hind sight the Ski Patrol wishes they had looked hard right away.
Note that it took a dog to find the guy.
I am at a loss as to why the ski area would be liable for this death. Are they liable for the avalanche? That would be a bad precedent.
Were they expected to rescue him after the avalanche? Other than the girl @ Stevens Pass this year I cannot recall ski patrol ever rescuing a full burial alive. Anywhere.
I am guessing that many people @ Donner Ski Ranch have their own little hells and what ifs to live with, but how does this result in financial ruin for the Ski Area?
I am curious why anyone of any ability would ride there? Sugar Bowl is across the street. Is there some secret to the place I am unaware of?
Is it a financial thing?
^^^ThisQuote:
Originally Posted by Skeeze
The only resort I ever worked at was the PNW's last family owned resort. My college buddy's parents owned a small family resort in NM.
An in-bounds slide demands immediate patrol attention even if they don't have an immediate indication that there was someone in it.
A search 2-3 hours after?! WTF completely unnaceptable in developed ski nations imo
I would like to clarify a couple things about this accident. For those of you that don't know this terrain is directly in the front of the mountain, in order to access it you have to ride a chairlift that travels directly over these cliffs and start zones, it is labeled double black and is obviously not only a starting zone but a starting zone in an avalanche terrain risk scale of 1 or 2 (one being the most dangerous signifying that if an avy occurs there will be death/serious consequences), common sense dictates that you not only have the skills to ride it but that also, and most important in this situation you don't ride it alone or with no one knowing that you were at least headed to palisades, especially with early season conditions and a high avy danger. It is a common slide area at the resort that often causes small avalanches (which this was)and considering the visibility of the area (visible from the lodge, bar, chairlifts, bunny hill, etc) just because they had a slide there would not indicate a need for immediate search and rescue because a)you shouldn't be riding it alone and b) the likely hood of getting caught and buried there and not being seen by someone/anyone is minuscule to the extreme degree (I still have a hard time believing that no one saw it). For those of you claiming that it should be closed, take up another sport like table tennis! Palisades at dsr is obviously double black terrain and if you decide to ride it you are obviously risking life and limb to do so, that is the nature of our sport. I myself broke my neck, shoulder, and had 9 stitches through my helmet last year on these same cliffs, my other friend broke his back a week before... but when i was laying there unconscious and bleeding my friends were trying to get to me, i was not alone! that is the nature of what we do, blaming dsr for it is absurd... if your going to lay the blame, lay it where it belongs, with the victim via personal responsibility and the victims friends for letting him ride double black terrain alone, It's not like people of a lower skill set cant take an alternate and easier route to the bottom of these cliffs (top of the bunny hill) and watch there friends go big... If you ride stuff like this alone (like I regularly do) then accept responsibility for your actions and the possible consequences! and don't blame the resort for your own mistakes...
STFU JONG. You are an asshole who cant ski. That's why it's inbounds easy to access terrain. Would you change your mind if it was a 7 year old? Did you get a lifetime pass for your amazing 1st post?
Quote:
I myself broke my neck, shoulder, and had 9 stitches through my helmet last year on these same cliffs, my other friend broke his back a week before...
Not buying it Bodhi. There's a small contingent of very competent riders at DSR that lap this constantly on pow days (of which Rocker was a part of), and the general public laps the face just lookers right of the cliffs regularly. It could very well have been just about anyone, advanced or not, enjoying a few pow turns before veering back away from the cliffs.
It doesn't need to be closed but the obvious danger of the only slide path on the hill during a pretty heinous cycle should be mitigated if it is going to be open for riding. DSR doesn't shoot and after a slide into a trap failed to consider the worst case scenario. Patrol is lucky it wasn't one of them who triggered it and got swept from posting the cliff warning signs that morning.
Your right, i can't ski... but I ride better then you ever will! if it was a seven year old i would blame the parents and rightly so, not the resort like your implying should happen...time to wake up and smell the coffee... what we do is dangerous, people die, this is not the first friend that I've lost at dsr (same problem, riding alone, if you do it accept responsibility for it and don't blame others), and rocker was a friend... lost another friend at sugar bowl last year, once again same problem, it was people like you who don't keep an eye on their friends after taking them into terrain like this and then want to lay the blame where it doesn't belong because you don't take personal responsibility... If I happen to die on one of my many solo missions then please blame me, because it was my fault and not the resorts... even with my 12 units of uc transferable avy science, emt, gear, experience, etc. if I'm alone and go into terrain like this and die or get hurt, for you to blame anyone but me would be absurd and no, dsr wouldn't give me a lifetime pass for my first post, I buy them every year because dsr has more heart then your favorite mountain, squaw, judging by your attitude...
I know that dsr patrol always ski cuts that upper palisades cornice... that doesn't mean that they will get it to slide every time, that again is the nature of the beast... the bottom line, if he had his friends watching him the chances of this being a fatality would be GREATLY diminished!!! If you ride alone, accept responsibility for your actions!Quote:
Originally Posted by snapt
a few stupid questions:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon
-where do you get this "double black diamond" / "risk scale of 1 or 2" stuff? http://www.donnerskiranch.com/trialmap.html
-why do you call that a small slide, the crown is pretty big (and clearly big enough to bury somebody)?
-not closing the area and doing a probeline search on a newly slid (and easily visible) area after operations for the day have begun sounds crazy (and negligent).
-do your friends wait in the runout?
imo, the buddy system only goes so far in resort powder-day skiing.
Hey D-Bag Bodhi, sorry you broke your neck but it sounds like you didn't have the skills to ski it. Wtf is your deal anyways Mr Cuntmuffin? do you work for the resort?
Anyways everything you said is stupid (guy had friends who alerted patrol, not a small slide for in-bounds) but here is the main thing
A FUCKING AVALANCHE HAPPENED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RESORT ON A CROWDED DAY AND PATROL DID NOT EVEN TRY TO FIND OUT IF SOMEONE WAS CAUGHT UNTIL IT WAS WAY TOO FUCKING LATE.
shit happens skiing, but at a resort you at least expect patrol to respond, after all that is their fucking job. And it could have easily been a young kid (lots of kids under 10 could handle terrain like that without breaking their neck)
In conclusion, I don't think this run should be closed. I think this mountain should be closed until they get some new fucking management.
I just saw your more recent post but still everything you have to say about this is completely fucktarded and still I have no clue why you and all your friends are unable to stay alive on the hill.
but just so you shut the fuck up, i copied this from the article:
"By the time rescuers reached the man, Anderson had been buried in snow for about five hours.
Reports indicate that there were several people skiing and snowboarding in the affected area, deputies said.
Anderson's friends were left in shock after the incident.
They said he had just moved back to the area and was enjoying his first day of the season on the hill.
“We had been telling ski patrol ‘we’re missing a guy, we’re missing a guy,' but they didn't start looking for him until two to three hours later," said Katana Curven, Anderson's friend."
Goddamn Bodhi, you're a fucking moron and a half. Were you that dumb before the injury, or was it that apparently bigass hit on the head that made you such an idiot?
WOW Bodhi. Didn't think someone could post three of the dumbest fucking posts in a row. Congrats! Also, if you're trolling in an avy death thread, you can go fuck yourself. Actually you can go fuck yourself either way. Way to completely miss the point on this whole thing.
Thank god they are UC transferable. Got nervous there for a second and thought maybe you didn't know what you were talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon
You've had multiple friends die in inbounds avalanches at DSR???Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon
I generally don't refer to skiing under a ski lift as a solo mission. However, since DSR doesn't advise everyone to bring a full avi kit and ski with a partner under the lift, what would the buddy system have done? Afterall, apparently DSR patrol didn't do a full search until hours after they were told someone was missing. I fail to see you point.Quote:
If I happen to die on one of my many solo missions then please blame me, because it was my fault and not the resorts...
You took a 120 hour EMT-B class and a 24 hour Avalanche 1? I guess that makes you a real expert and nobody else on the forum could possibly know enough to legitimately disagree! :rolleyes2:Quote:
even with my 12 units of uc transferable avy science, emt
My point is that if you ride alone, you take a much greater risk! Year after year people keep dying and 90% of the time it could be different if there friends had kept a better eye on each other!!! If you do it on a double black with an ATR scale of 1/2 then you are taking an even greater risk! Where do I get the double black? From all the signs clearly posted above dsr palisades and the clear nature of the terrain. The avalanche terrain risk scale asks the simple question "if it does slide, how bad is it going to be?" If your right above a large early season cliff band then that would indicate slides are going to be more dangerous and normal safety precautions should be taken, like riding with a friend to keep an eye on you... In my over 20years riding, with over 100 days a year, I Have never seen a resort start a probe line just because there is an inbounds avy... especially a small one, where do i get that it was a small one, by knowing my shit... avys are rated on a scale of R1 through R5, with a small avy being an R2 (Could bury, injure, or kill a person, approximate path length 330ft, 100 m). And no I didn't just take a one weekend avy one course but three college semesters of a 4 unit avy class, my 5 unit emt class twice, and I'm a level 3 snowboard instructor that regularly hits dsr palisades, many times in the past with rocker. Bottom line, is if someone had seen him get buried then the chances of this being a fatality would be GREATLY diminished! He was buried in a easily accessible rescue area where rescue would of been quick and simple, I myself have saved people buried in the same area! If I hadn't been there then they would of also died! Because of the small size of the avy the chances of him dying from trauma injuries were small, if he would of been dug out within 30 minutes survival rates go up to over 50%. According to the reports "The sheriff's department received a call about the missing man at noon Monday, nearly three hours after the avalanche." why did it take him 3 hours to get reported missing? because he was riding alone... The simple fact that no one saw and reported it, especially in such a HIGH visibility area, would indicate to patrol that no one was caught in it. With no missing person report, and no one seeing it, patrol should be given a little slack for not setting up a probe line like some people have called for... I'm not saying this isn't a terrible tragedy, it is, I'm not saying that Steve did anything that I wouldn't do, because he didn't, what I'm saying is "that if you ride alone, you are taking a much greater risk of death!!! and you or your friends and family need to take that into account when laying blame" Don't make an assumption that just because it is a highly visible area you'll be seen, we all know where assumptions lead us. The most important avy rule of all, especially when it is an high avy danger conditions, is to ride with friends and keep an eye on each other! That is all I'm trying to say! And for the record I don't think much of dsrs patrol, they didn't even backboard me when I had a mechanism of injury that crushed my helmet and lacerated my shoulder to the bone, but in this case, I can't lay the blame at their feet, just because there was a slide there would not indicate an immediate search, that cornice slides all the time and I know that rocker knew that it "regularly" slid, so he knew what he was getting into... if a friend had seen him (and no, you don't need to be in the run out zone to watch!) then he would still most likely be alive today!
Around here if anything slides inbounds in an open area it's treated as a live burial until proven otherwise. Avy dogs, probe lines, etc. Why would you want to operate any other way? Best case you save a life, worst case you have a great training opportunity..Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon
So what you're saying is this is an area that historically slides and people have been buried in in the past? Nope, no reason whatsoever then to probe. Especially with all of the tracks leading into and around the fracture area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon
Four for four Bodhi. Batting 1.000, keep it up!
Inbounds skiers in Tahoe aren't generally educated to awareness level about avalanches, much less on the obscure avalanche terrain risk scale. I actually had to google it and the only working links I found (2 out of 8):Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon
1. This TGR thread
2. A 1996 ISSW article that indicates you are confused and have your scale numbers backwards.
You also have the R scale and the D scale confused. For the record, D2 (which you called an R2) avalanches are responsible for more fatal avalanhces than any other D number. You might want to refresh your avalanche knowledge before you spew further about how educated you are.Quote:
where do i get that it was a small one, by knowing my shit... avys are rated on a scale of R1 through R5, with a small avy being an R2 (Could bury, injure, or kill a person, approximate path length 330ft, 100 m). And no I didn't just take a one weekend avy one course but three college semesters of a 4 unit avy class
A D2 or above slide in an open-to-the-skiing-public area is a clear indication of possible burial and a search by beacon, dogs, and RECCO. Probing is what you do until those assets are available. With the report of a missing person, a burial should have been assumed until the area was cleared.
If a report of an avalanche and a missing person doesn't prompt a full and immediate response, then skiing with a partner would be of no use unless both were skiing with full avalanche safety kits inbounds.
You have made two rather outrageous claims in this thread now: 1. That you have had multiple friends die at DSR in inbounds avalanches 2. You have saved multiple people buried inbounds avalanches at DSR in the area this man was buried, an area you claim is too dangerous to ski alone but that ski patrol had no reason to search after a slide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon
1. Trauma is more terrain dependent than anything. I'd say the consequences of that terrain include a high chance of trauma.Quote:
Because of the small size of the avy the chances of him dying from trauma injuries were small, if he would of been dug out within 30 minutes survival rates go up to over 50%.
2. The survival rate for 30 minutes is probably less than 50%, it depends what dataset you examine. For example: http://www.earnyourturns.com/wp-cont...urves_2011.gif
3. In either case, it is a good reason for patrol to have responded with urgency since time is of the essence.
According to the news interviews with the man's friend, which could be wrong, they reported it several times to ski patrol. After 3 hours, the friends and/or ski patrol called the sheriff.Quote:
According to the reports "The sheriff's department received a call about the missing man at noon Monday, nearly three hours after the avalanche." why did it take him 3 hours to get reported missing? because he was riding alone...
http://www.kcra.com/image/view/-/178...412-LB-jpg.jpg
I'm not familiar with DSR, but from the pictures it looks to me like the individual didn't have to ski the line to be in the start zone. He could have been traversing to another area.
The point Bodhi is making is valid: it really is the individual's responsibility to ensure their own safety. Not unlike choosing to wear a helmet or not. But that, unfortunately for Bodhi, is not the issue of this whole discussion.
It was an inbounds slide. End of conversation. The ski hill/patrol completely shit the bed.
Bodhi, paragraphs are your friend.