Route selection

With this bit of caution from local papers with the quote: "“If you are going to go out of bounds in these mountains you need to know what you are doing,” I'd like to use this Sunday's Cowboy Ridge ski as an example. At the outset, to my knowledge no one got hurt that day and no one triggered an avalanche.

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...19448011_n.jpg

Sunday March 18, 2012 was a busy day. We counted possibly 15 groups in the Musical Bumps area. We were among the first groups to ski out past Oboe and to Cowboy Ridge. We set a good portion of the leftmost blue skintrack in the picture which is in dense trees and away from downhill tracks. We wanted to ski either one of the three middle lines of Cowboy Ridge (the lines are split by bands of trees). A note on these lines. They had been skied the day before so there was lots of downhill tracks on them. There is a convex roll on a good portion of the middle lines so people skiing those lines have no way of knowing if there are other parties on those lines before dropping in.

It was pretty much perfect skiing conditions. Over 1m+ of storm snow had fallen. Winds light, ski pen was about 20 - 30cms. Temps were minus 8 to 10.

Our party dropped in the slope where the "e" of Convex Roll starts. As I crested the roll, I saw about 100m vertical below me two people skinning right up the slope traversing across it (I couldn't see them before I dropped in and immediately stopped). I told them that my party was dropping in and at the same time radioed my party to stop till this group had cleared out. I told them they were vulnerable to danger from people like me who couldn't see them and one said that they just followed the skintrack.

These two people cleared the skintrack and my group dropped in on the centre of the slope. I dropped in last and skied skiers right. To my amazement (and horror) as I was skiing downhill (at a good rate of speed) at about the "l") in the "lemming" part of the wording on the picture there were five people on the skintrack also going up the slope. I avoided them by splitting the group and kept going downhill. I had no opportunity to see this group and would not have skied that part of the slope if I knew there people on it. I did not trigger any sluff release or avalanches on any of these people.

My point is that there are so many other safer ways to get to the top of Cowboy Ridge which do not expose people on the uphill to overhead hazard (ie either convexities or skiers going downhill). For example, the skintrack marked "good" on picture left is through dense trees, avoids potential downhill traffic and does not have convexities above the track. The skintrack marked "good" on picture right goes through low angle terrain. Both the "good" tracks might add perhaps 5 to 10 minutes (at most) to time spent on the uphill over the "WTF" skintrack

I've seen some stunning skin tracks in Whistler and the Duffey this year. I urge people to think for themselves and not to simply follow tracks just because they're already there. I urge people to think about overhead hazard. You spend the most time on the uphill and are therefore the most exposed on the uphill. Use your head accordingly

well hey, maybe they all dug pits!;)

honestly tho, being in an area that get's frequented by the masses, you gotta expect anything and everything all at once. typical shitshow stuff.

rog

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Originally Posted by icelanticskier

well hey, maybe they all dug pits!;)

honestly tho, being in an area that get's frequented by the masses, you gotta expect anything and everything all at once. typical shitshow stuff.

rog

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See, if I kill someone by triggering a slide on them I'll feel pretty bad about it but they'll be dead. I think its up to them to use their heads and not skin up a slope that's obviously used for skiing. This totally reminds me of the gigantic shitshow debate on Teton AT (RIP) about the guy who cleaned out an entire slackcountry Teton bowl by dropping a cornice; it went for ever about who was in the wrong. I don't really want to get into who's into the right or who's on the wrong.

btw - if it wasn't clear I'm pretty much in agreement with you about pits.

Good post Lee.

The gangbang every group has their own different skin track route to the same goal is, IMO, another one of those North Americanisms

I know in Schruns there is nothing better than to tour and feel proud about the weight of your rucksack and smell the pines and to look forward to arriving at the hut. We would sunburn and drink schnapps and sleep on mattresses stuffed with beech leaves and it would be our favorite memory. If you are there regularly you begin to know the terrain both for pleasure and survival but even when you think you know the terrain there are surprises. These days of course they have mortars to loosen the murderous slopes but years ago we used another secret and foolproof method. The neighbor had a gardener with a feeble-minded son. He was able to perform a few useful services like peeling potatoes for the kitchen or carrying firewood but mostly he was a good-natured dolt.

He was a magician with seal skins on his skis, however. We even took him to the Arlberg one spring season because we didn't know it so well and conditions were treacherous that year. We would send him up all manner of slopes as a canary in a coal mine and he would always find the safest way up and down. A heavy new snow had come and was not bonded whatsoever with the old snow. Heedless Berliners on vacation would cast off without guides because the guides would refuse to lead them. Soon enough these Berliners would bring the whole damn slope down in a tidal wave and after some digging there would be Berliners stacked around like cords of wood.

But my wife and I would tour all over the hills with that feeble-minded gardener's son. All he needed in the morning was a crust of bread and a chunk of cured meat and I guessed that if you could somehow feed him a real American breakfast he would break trail to the top of Everest. At night even though we would drink wine and dark beer and sing mountain songs and argue he would just sit by the fire with a blank look on his face. Later I heard he died in a fire but I will always remember him quiet and strong, sitting by the window and eating jugged hare with his fingers.

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

See, if I kill someone by triggering a slide on them I'll feel pretty bad about it but they'll be dead.

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and life goes on. pure and simple.

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I think its up to them to use their heads and not skin up a slope that's obviously used for skiing. This totally reminds me of the gigantic shitshow debate on Teton AT (RIP) about the guy who cleaned out an entire slackcountry Teton bowl by dropping a cornice; it went for ever about who was in the wrong. I don't really want to get into who's into the right or who's on the wrong.

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if folks wanna go ski/tour where others are doing the same thing then all of those folks should expect the unexpected, or not. i never got the whole herd mentality thang. easier to just sit in traffic or in the collins lift line after a dusting.

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btw - if it wasn't clear I'm pretty much in agreement with you about pits.

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most folks that (really) have spent/spend a shit ton of time in the bc and have so in different mtn ranges with different snow stack ups agree with us about the whole pit thing.

another good discussion, thanx lee.

rog

i'm sure this is stupid but aren't the people using the good skintrack on the right still in danger from people above if something bigger than sluff rips?

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

With this bit of caution from local papers with the quote: "“If you are going to go out of bounds in these mountains you need to know what you are doing,” I'd like to use this Sunday's Cowboy Ridge ski as an example. At the outset, to my knowledge no one got hurt that day and no one triggered an avalanche.

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...19448011_n.jpg

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spook - good question. The slopes above the skin track on the right is about 25 degrees with a 20 deg bench in the middle (that's about where the arrow is) so its way lower angle.

Lee, at least no one had the nerve to yell at you for "dropping in" on them. If they were to get caught in a slide from above, even if they did not trigger it, my take is that it is their responsibility to travel safely. One can never be certain that they are the only people out there, or for that matter, that a cornice might not naturally fail. Any number of things might cause a slide.

That's what you get for skiing with the sheeple in the GVA Gong (JONG) shadow.

Completely agree on the route finding (my preferred route is to the right), but just curious if you've ever seen the main lines slide? I've never noticed debris, but if they ever ran to the bottom where everyone skins up, it could get deep fast.

Another post on the same topic;

http://bivouac.com//dsxpg.asp?dsxid=1235

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"Description: Cowboy Ridge, immediately east of Singing Pass in Garibaldi Park, has become an increasingly popular backcountry destination in the past 10 years. On 050102, I counted a total of 36 tourers on this ridge in a three minute period.


Cowboy Ridge from Oboe Summit East

Tourers are attracted to the consistently angled intermediate slopes and enjoy the relatively quick access from the Whistler Valley via the Singing Pass Trail or the Whistler Ski Area. Unfortunately, there are generally some differences of opinion on how to climb this ridge and how to ski it. Often, multiple climbing tracks cross obvious avalance zones, and skiers often cut across the most severe convexities, as the two skiers who skied the left hand line and started the avalanche did.

In the spring, I've seen the avalanche debris pile up over eight metres deep in the bottom of the pass. While this year's snowpack isn't sufficient to do this yet, there seems to be little question that this convexity would fail on the facets beneath the December 19th crust if it were loaded by a skier. It appears the skiers chose to ignore this hazard, suggesting that they thought the risk was not great. Note that their climbing track was covered by the slide debris.

It seems there are a number of observable factors that would suggest this line should not be skied. What do you see?"[

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http://bivouac.com//img/Dsx/1235_CowboyAvy6002.jpg

Another cautionary tale about the importance of careful routefinding.

http://jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=8373

Here's a route-finding exercise from the CAC Online Avalanche Course

http://www.avalanche.ca/cac/training...ding-exercises

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Originally Posted by Spark

Here's a route-finding exercise from the CAC Online Avalanche Course

http://www.avalanche.ca/cac/training...ding-exercises

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Fun! Reposted on my facebook.

I don't want to make too many excuses for them, but is it possible that some of the people you encountered (particularly the people who were "just following the skin track") hadn't been there before and didn't really know the slope well?

If this is a popular area for it's intermediate slopes, I'd say the chance of seeing someone who hasn't been there before is pretty good.

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Originally Posted by Shorty_J

I don't want to make too many excuses for them, but is it possible that some of the people you encountered (particularly the people who were "just following the skin track") hadn't been there before and didn't really know the slope well?

If this is a popular area for it's intermediate slopes, I'd say the chance of seeing someone who hasn't been there before is pretty good.

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Either way, being able to encounter new terrain and select a safe route is pretty key to staying alive. On the approach to Cowboy Ridge, you descent from Oboe, the next ridge over, and have access to the view that's in Lee's pic. I'd say you have a pretty good opportunity to observe the terrain and plot your route.

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Originally Posted by D(C)

Either way, being able to encounter new terrain and select a safe route is pretty key to staying alive. On the approach to Cowboy Ridge, you descent from Oboe, the next ridge over, and have access to the view that's in Lee's pic. I'd say you have a pretty good opportunity to observe the terrain and plot your route.

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You're right. Everyone has to learn somehow... but it amazes me how many people venture into the backcountry unprepared.

Skiing musical bumps on a weekend is like going to the mall. Don't do it.

there were one or two reckless and pretty stupid routes I've selected.. my first few times out. I'm still here and have a better feel for where not to go. Didn't have to learn that lesson the hard way. just got lucky I guess..

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Originally Posted by theshredder

there were one or two reckless and pretty stupid routes I've selected.. my first few times out. I'm still here and have a better feel for where not to go. Didn't have to learn that lesson the hard way. just got lucky I guess..

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This is sort of the point I was trying to make. Again, not making excuses, but I think back to stuff I did skiing before I knew better and shake my head at what I got away with.

Knowing how to read a map is a fairly useful skill set for avoiding this sort of thing.

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Originally Posted by homemadesalsa

Knowing how to read a map is a fairly useful skill set for avoiding this sort of thing.

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there's a rather large number of people who tour without a map thesedays and based on memory the common Whistler Backcountry touring map isn't particularly great at showcasing what Lee showed in his picture.


meh, most people recreate to turn their brain off these days. Including many people on this board based on their actions, so dickwaving is stupid. Turning your brain off and longterm successful ski touring are mutually exclusive.

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Originally Posted by homemadesalsa

Knowing how to read a map is a fairly useful skill set for avoiding this sort of thing.

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Which is one of the differences between being a 'backcountry skier' and a 'skier in the backcountry'.

Most people have no interest in being backcountry skiers. They only have an interest in backcountry.

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Originally Posted by Hohes

Most people have no interest in being backcountry skiers. They only have an interest in backcountry.

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well, that and checking boxes.

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Originally Posted by homemadesalsa

Knowing how to read a map is a fairly useful skill set for avoiding this sort of thing.

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yes, but so is opening yer eyes and looking around. a lot. a whole lot. i was VERY young my 1st winter out west and a bud of mine and i were up at a trailhead and he pulls out a map and guidebook. i look at him and asked him what the fuck do we need those for? we can see everything right from here. isn't very difficult if you learn to or have an eye for terrain features/angles and such.

and why anyone would hop on a skinner that's already there is beyond me. choose yer own adventure for christs sake. plenty o room to roam and avoid other humans in most places in the mtns.

rog

To paraphrase Forest Gump, "Slackcountry is as slackcountry does." It's where dumb things get done.

As an additional observation, every time I visit maritime zones I can't help but notice that people choose poor routes more often than here in sketchy continental snowpack land. And they're usually just lazy choices.

I was thinking I am glad I don't live in Canada. Had to walk all over the place to get to the top in those exercises.

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Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

there's a rather large number of people who tour without a map thesedays and based on memory the common Whistler Backcountry touring map isn't particularly great at showcasing what Lee showed in his picture.

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The backcountry map doesn't show safe up tracks. Knowing John I bet he figured that it wasn't one of those things that needed to be explained when he did the map.

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Originally Posted by icelanticskier

we can see everything right from here. isn't very difficult if you learn to or have an eye for terrain features/angles and such.

and why anyone would hop on a skinner that's already there is beyond me. choose yer own adventure for christs sake. plenty o room to roam and avoid other humans in most places in the mtns.

rog

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That's what was mindblowing. You can see the ski tracks going downhill. You can see that the middle slope gets skied. What on earth makes you think - cool I'll skin straight up it

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Originally Posted by goldenboy

As an additional observation, every time I visit maritime zones I can't help but notice that people choose poor routes more often than here in sketchy continental snowpack land. And they're usually just lazy choices.

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and the sad thing is that when there's continental type pwkls in normally safe maritime or quasi - maritime snowpacks then people die because they make bad choices (what else can you say about that Nelson heliski avalanche?)

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Originally Posted by powder11

Skiing musical bumps on a weekend is like going to the mall. Don't do it.

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You're right. But crazy thing is there used to be a time when it was just flute oboe was a weekend touron show. The contagion now spreads further and further. I know this is just spraying into the wind (I put the route exercise up on wayne flann blog fwiw) but sometimes you see stuff that's so careless that you just gotta say something despite better judgment - know what i mean?

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

The backcountry map doesn't show safe up tracks. Knowing John I bet he figured that it wasn't one of those things that needed to be explained when he did the map.

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Yes, I remember the rudimentary routes, which are neither here nor there to me. Even the "wonderful" Swiss/Austrian topo map routes require half a brain to use safely. I didn't think at, looking it up, 1:25,000 and 20m countours if it showed the slope profile well enough to make route decisions vis a vis the approach view.

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

and the sad thing is that when there's continental type pwkls in normally safe maritime or quasi - maritime snowpacks then people die because they make bad choices (what else can you say about that Nelson heliski avalanche?)

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is this the current theory?

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for me, maps help (and can be a good starting point). the sheep (or maybe it's cow) thing of following an established (or previously established route seems pretty psychologically difficult for some to get past.

also, tremper's, book discusses "habitation", which he illustrates with people habitually crossing an obvious avalanche path near Anchorage because the path follows the route of a summer trail.

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

That's what was mindblowing. You can see the ski tracks going downhill. You can see that the middle slope gets skied. What on earth makes you think - cool I'll skin straight up it

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One thing to consider is that there's actually quite a bit of uphill traffic coming off singing pass these days. I've seen it skiing low elevation trees off Whistler on storm days. There could be folks who are heading out much farther than Cowboy ridge and they're not even thinking about descending it or aware that people do. I know I've skinned practically straight up parts of oboe and cowboy ridge (not in the zone pictured) on my way to fissile without a thought that someone might be skiing it. I've even complained about ski tracks coming down rather flat terrrain that I'm skinning up (who the fuck comes out here to ski this shit?).

I dont mind following someone else's trail if it goes where I'm going.