I think BD stopped selling the Gold Label in the can (not the paste touch-up glue). Does anybody know where to get some? How are people re-gluing their skin?
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I think BD stopped selling the Gold Label in the can (not the paste touch-up glue). Does anybody know where to get some? How are people re-gluing their skin?
I was able to do a pair of skins with 2 thin coats using one tube.
Is there something wrong with the tube stuff? I haven't used it.
I didn't realize you could do a complete re-glue with the tube stuff. I thought it was only for touch -up. How's that working out?Quote:
Originally Posted by wooley12
I BELIEVE it's the same as the can but not certain. Maybe some chemist mag can confirm. They sell it for "touch ups". I just touched up the whole skin. Not a lot of days on the re glued skins though.
Here's the drill. Remove old glue with hot air and scrapper. Spread thin layer on with credit card. Press/smooth with warm iron and paper that came with the skins between the iron and the glue. Let dry over night. Repeat.
I re-glued two sets of skins last year with the Gold Label glue in the tube. AFAICT, it's the same stuff as what was once sold in the can.
I do the re-glue like wooley but with one exception: After painting on the new glue, I first let it dry for 24 hours in a dust-free environment before I iron with parchment paper (or original skin paper if I still have that laying around). I've done at least a half dozen re-glues this way and all of them have performed and endured like factory glue.
The government forced BD to stop distribution of the cans and their on-hand inventory at the time. The cans had Toluene as a solvent and the tubes now use Xylene as a solvent. I've not used the tubes as of yet, because I bought all of the remaining inventory of cans from bc.com a couple years ago, which was not many, so probably enough to get me by for the next 6-8 seasons if I don't share with friends.
I was wondering about both as well when I tried re-ordering cans and got the Gold Label Adhesive instead from our supplier. Good to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Toad
FWIW, we have misc skin loops and STS kits if needed for repairs or spares....I'll try to get them shown in the store in the near future.
i'm sure it's a little more expensive, but the re-new sheets worked really well the one time I used them.
Same hot scraping process as above, but then just ironing on the glue sheets
i havent tied it myself but here is everything you want to know & more about heating in the glue originaly written by SNOWDOGHENRY and posted over on that other site where everyone is light in the heels
"First, there is one of three reasons why you want to re-glue your skins:
1. Your BD skin’s glue has become contaminated with dog hair, lint, food crumb, and etc, and not sticking as they once did. Otherwise, the glue is in good shape under the contamination. The glue is not gooey (bad glue). You don’t have to be so anal about getting all of the old glue off the base fabric. Just give it a good scrape and the micro remaining residue of glue in the base fabric will bond well with the new glue.
2. The BD glue is simply a bad batch and is gooey (leaves a sticky mess on your fingers when handling them). If you have a bad batch of glue check on getting a warranty replacement first. If you are replacing bad glue you need to be anal about getting all of the old glue off and out of the base fabric of the skins. If not, the new glue will not bond well. Hot scrape off the old glue and then place brown paper bag strip on the skin and iron as many times until no more glue is absorbing into the fresh paper strip out of the base fabric. Iron needs to be 310-340 F degrees. Be careful not to start a fire!
3. You are re-gluing non BD/Ascension skins for any of the above reason or that you’re not impressed with the new glue and want Gold Label Adhesive. All of the glue needs to be removed just as anal and the same method as with reason #2 above. If not, you’re mixing two different glue formulas and risk delaminating.
I cover my workbench in clean paper or cardboard that can be thrown away after wards. I replace it with fresh paper/cardboard for the second skin. I then tape and cover the plush with wide blue painters tape completely to keep the plush from getting contaminated with glue. I use a c-clamp to fasten the tip-loop of the skin to the workbench, so it stays put and does not slide around when I’m stripping the old glue off.
I’ve previously used an electric hot scraper to remove the old glue and worked great, but I loaned it to a guy and he left town with it. This type of scraper:
http://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/sho...oducts_id=1532
I now use a metal putty knife/scraper and a heat gun. I’ve found that the plastic disposable scrapers don’t work as well as the metal. I’ve also found that the heat gun and scraper combination gets more glue down deep out of the base fabric than the electric scraper. Note: A blow-dryer that you use for your hair is not hot enough.
I set the heat gun on LOW and start heating a small area of glue until I notice it gets a wet/liquid look and then scrape it with the metal scraper. I’m able to heat and scrape at the same time long strips of glue. I scrape towards the tail away from the clamped tip-loop. The glue heats and strips off fast, so you don’t need to heat the glue long. I’m able to have 95%+ of the glue off in minutes. I can virtually get all of the glue with about three passes with the scraper and pushing fairly hard on the scraper.
If I’m striping off the glue for reason #2 or #3 above, I’ll then use the iron and paper bag strips to iron out into the paper any residual glue deep down in the base fabric. Use as many strips of paper and as many times as needed until no more glue is soaking into the paper. Again, the iron needs to be 310-340 F degrees. See my thermometer instructions below.
Note: I’ve tried using paper bags to iron from the start as per BD instructions to remove all of the glue from the beginning, but have found it to be long, messy and more work. The metal scraper is a lot faster and cleaner for getting the majority of the glue off first. I do use the paper bag strips for ironing out the micro remaining residue glue that is on or in the base fabric.
It’s time to glue after the skins have had a few minutes to cool. Sometimes I leave them on the bench until the next day to glue.
I fill a paper bowl with hot tap water and let the can of Gold Label Adhesive soak upright for about five minutes. Do this for sure if you’ve been storing the can in a cold winter garage. I’ll then cleanup the previous mess and get everything ready for the next step.
I take the can of glue and pour a small puddle in the middle of the skin and use a disposable plastic putty knife to spread it up and down, side to side on the skin. Don’t use the small brush attached to the lid of the can. Because I’ve warmed the glue it pours out light and smooth and spreads fast. It’s not cold and tacky. Pour less glue than you think you’ll need, you can always add more. When it’s warm a little goes a long ways.
I then lightly scrape the excess glue so that there is a light texture of base fabric barely covered in glue. Wipe off the glue from the plastic knife on something clean that you’ll throw away. Only takes minutes for this step! I then let the solvent dry for 20-30 minutes.
This first layer is now tacky and allows a large amount of glue to be spread for the second coat and it begins to bond instantly, by so, allowing a thick layer. I’ll then use the small brush attached to the lid of the can to touchup a few small places that needs some more glue to make it even.
BD instructions call for three layers, but I’ve found too much glue has more problems than too little. Too much glue, keeps stretching way too far before it releases when pilling it apart. Most folks put too much glue on. Good thin coverage!
The skins need to dry at least 24 hours to get all of the solvent out of the glue. I’ve also dried them longer. This is one step a lot of folks have rushed the night before a trip and head out and have problems with their re-glue, because there is solvent still in the glue. Be patient, plan ahead, give yourself time, and not the night before your big hut trip!
Now it’s time to heat the glue. A lot of folks skip this heating step. DON’T! Again, the glue needs to dry at least 24 hours. You’ll need the white transfer paper that your skins came new with. If you’ve thrown them away ask your local shop to save some BD transfer paper from when they cut skins for a customer.
Roll the transfer paper slick plastic side down on the glue and paper side up. Be careful to have the paper smooth with no wrinkles.
310-340 F is the temp the iron needs to be within. You only have 30 degrees of working range. Not hot enough, it does not bond well, and too hot, you'll destroy your skins.
Note: Most wax irons are not hot enough and will not work.
I use an old heavy steel clothing iron (electric). The kind that is heat only and uses no water for steam. They have a very heavy metal plate for the ironing surface, without steam holes, so it distributes the heat nice and even. Look in your local thrift stores.
I use a dial stem thermometer and place the whole needle flat against the hot plate to confirm temp. Most folks just guess how hot their iron is and are usually wrong (cold), and waste a lot of time and money. 325 degrees is HOT! Buy a thermometer, do it right the first time, so you don't have to strip glue off and buy supplies two times. This is the thermometer I use:
http://www.campchef.com/catalog/item...ermometer.html
I let the iron heat for a long time and adjust it with the thermometer. After I have it at temp, I let it sit longer and check the temp a couple more times to make sure it's not going to get any hotter once I start ironing the glue.
I now slowly iron the top of the transfer paper until I see no more bumps in the paper and its glass smooth. The paper will be very hot to the touch. If you’ve used a thermometer to be exact on the temp setting you should be safe, so iron away. You will want some pressure on the iron to smooth out the glue, but don’t push too hard, because the glue is in a liquid state and can be pushed off the sides into the plush hair.
Because the old irons I use are so heavy and have no holes in the base plate for steam, I just iron the whole skin. I don't need to stop every little bit to press it flat with a smooth object as per BD instructions.
Let the skins cool until they’re cool to the touch. Pull the blue tape off of the plush and then the transfer paper off the glue. The glue will look smooth just like they did the day they were new.
I’ve always had a little glue get on the very edge of the plush (0.5-1mm). It does not clean off, so I just barely place it past the edge of the ski (0.5-1mm) and just trim it off. Also, if you have new European skins (Mohair) and want better glue, it’s easier to re-glue them before you cut them.
Last, I’ve not had any luck removing the non-stick strip that is on the newer skins without damaging it to a point it can’t be reused. If someone has found a way please share? "
scrapers = pita and mess
last time we re-glued a set of super nasty, pine needle, dog hair, fumunda cheese, two sticks of juicy foof gum, and remnants of some spandex mafia dude that got skinned over... we....
cut strips of paper grocery bags. placed them on the skins and ironed until saturated with glue. repeat. repeat. use needle nose pliers to pick off any resilient pine needles... repeat. done.
then apply new glue in preferred manner of choice.
the skins were clean clean clean after the grocery bag process and we were pretty high from the fumes.
I've used the paper bag/iron method and the heat gun/scraper method, each numerous times. I prefer the latter. But maybe that's because, unlike skinipenem, I'm not a huffer.
IME as a drysuit repair bro you want to pair the toluene based glues with a hearty red ... any hearty redQuote:
Originally Posted by Big Steve
I hear scraping the glue to the middle of the skin AWAY from the edge of the plush is the a good thing ??
I found a nice article from the guy who makes climbingskinsdirect.com. Apparently, if you skin in warm, spring conditions the glue can get impregnated with water making it too sticky, leaving residue on the ski. This was the problem I was having. You can just re-melt the glue under the plastic protective cover they came in which drives out the water and restore the original glue properties. Worked great.
Another tip. If you don't have a heat gun, just go outside (hopefully with a little breeze behind your back) take an old iron and melt the glue directly with the iron then scrape with metal putty knife. Took me less than a minute per skin. Watch out, it smokes like crazy.
Last evening I removed the thick glue from some old Ascensions I scored for my kid:
-hooked the clip over the end of the bench and clamped the tip bale
-sprayed Agent Orange over the glue and let it sit for 45 minutes or so
-pushed the 6" metal handled scrapers the whole length in one pass and wiped off the gradoo with paper towel from the scraper. Made another pass to remove a little more.
-laid out brown paper bag strips and ironed at 260 degrees. After I saw glue bleeding through, remove the bags and ran the scraper again picking up the remainder of the glue. Done.
-laid the skins out to cool and dry out before re-gluing later today.
A coupe of people questioned of the tube glue was the same as the can glue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Steve
I used to used the can glue for a few seasons running and it worked well, and stored well over summer.
Last spring I used the tube glue for the first time - seemed ok, though quite tacky. I recently pulled my skins out after being stored glue-to-glue over summer in a cool-ish basement. Glue is super tacky and sticks to everything: bases, my hands, inside of my pack, friggin gets everywhere. Any thing that get some pressure against the glue comes away with glue on it. Even freshly waxed skis are getting huge patches of hard to remove glue.
Last week I used another set of old skins (for my rock boards) glued with BD Gold glue from a can two seasons ago and I had no problems at all.
For now I am assuming that the tube glue is a little different to the can glue after storage.
My skins are my soul-mates and now they have turned on me! Dear Aunt Mary, what should I do?
^^^
You have wondering if the glue I just removed from the used skins was tube glue, simply old or laid on too thick. It had a texture like a poor sprayed on drywall texture.
The Gold Label instructions say to spread new glue with a scraper to 'push' in the glue. It reminds me of XC grip wax applications and corking. Like waxing, a heat gun and fan nozzle (which I did) and pressure from a scraper/squeegee may help or an iron and wax paper or whatever the Glue Renew Transfer Sheets are made of as seen in the instruction video (see orange highlight below)....or the glue needs to be replaced if all else fails.
Maybe you should try cheat sheets when storing skins and/or use.
Glue Renew Transfer Sheet Instructions:
Quote:
You'll need: Glue Renew Transfer Sheets, electric iron, roller (i.e.
rolling pin or beverage bottle).
Visit our Glue Renew page on www.BlackDiamondEquipment.com for
a tech video.
1. Remove old skin adhesive: Lay the skins on a flat surface, plush side
down. Take an extra-heavy brown paper grocery sack and cut it into
strips 5 cm (2 in) wider than the skins. Lay the paper strips on the
adhesive side of the skin with the paper extending beyond the edge
of the skin on both sides. Iron the paper with a medium hot iron
(wool setting). This will transfer the old adhesive onto the paper,
which can then be removed and discarded. Continue with this glue
removal process until you are left with a clean base on the skins.
2. Apply the new skin adhesive: Use one Glue Renew Transfer Sheet
per skin. Separate a small section of the Glue Renew Transfer
Sheet backing paper to expose the adhesive. Working with
approximately 45 cm (18 in) of the Glue Renew Transfer Sheet at
a time, press the skin and transfer sheet together until the full
length of the skin is covered with the Glue Renew Transfer Sheet.
Now flip the skin over and lay flat with the plush side up. Remove
all excess skin adhesive from the Glue Renew Transfer Sheet that
is not covered by the skin.
3. With the skin plush side down and the adhesive side of the Glue
Renew Transfer Sheet on the adhesive side of the skin, take a
medium hot iron (wool setting), and iron the Glue Renew Transfer
Sheet starting at one end of the skin. Iron about 45 cm (18 in) of the
Glue Renew Transfer Sheet at a time making sure you heat the glue
thoroughly (if the adhesive on the Glue Renew Transfer Sheet is not
heated completely, the glue will not transfer from the release paper
onto the back of the skin). Roll and press the heated portion with
your roller. Continue heating and rolling the Glue Renew Transfer
Sheet until you reach the end of the skin. Leave the skin and Glue
Renew Transfer Sheet together until both have cooled completely.
4. Application temperature: The transfer only works when the glue
reaches 155-171° C (310-340° F). Most Hot Waxing irons do not
reach high enough temperatures. Check instructions to make
sure your iron reaches these temperatures. For clothing irons, the
setting could be between Wool-factory specification when new of
166° C (330° F) and Cotton-factory specification when new of 193°
C (380° F), but depends on the make and model. Use caution to
remain within these temperatures.
5. Removing excess glue: Once the skin adhesive and skin have
cooled to room temperature, it is time to remove any remaining
excess adhesive from the edges of the skins. With the skin and
Glue Renew Transfer Sheet still together, lay the skin on a flat
surface with the skin plush side up. Now peel and clean all excess
glue from the skin edge. Once the excess glue has been removed
from the skin edges, you can separate the skin from the Glue
Renew Transfer Sheet.
NOTE: Save any unused Glue Renew Transfer Sheets for future skin
glue repair using the above method.
6. You can now fold the skin together and remove any remaining
excess adhesive. The skin is now ready for use or storage.
7. Repeat the heating and cleaning process with the other skin.
WARNING: This product contains a chemical known to the State of
California to cause cancer.
Wooohwa, those are far better instructions than I found under TECH SPECS at http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com...abel-adhesive/
Useless instructions: http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com...Insert-WEB.pdf
Dear BD - both sets of instructions can't be right.
My initial application of tube glue last spring was simply paint on a thin layer, scrape it off and let it let for 24 hours or more. This is all I had ever done with the old can glue - and it had always worked fine then. Apparently not so with the new tube.
I'm experimenting with solutions now:
- On one skin I have stripped all the glue using heat and a triangular shaped razor blade from a paint scraper. I'll add a new thin layer of tube glue and follow the BD instructions as best I can. Well, that is not quite true: I use cheap gloss photo printing paper as the plastic-coated "glue renew transfer sheet". Gloss side down to the glue, works well so far.
- The other skin I used thin cardboard paper to blot up excess glue with an iron. What remained was then ironed clean and flat using the cheapo gloss photo paper/glue renew sheet. Hopefully this will kick the glue back into line and I wont have to strip and re-apply both skins.
My skins will love me again. They have to. I am fucked with out them. Lost.
Holy crap, this is overkill.
Here's the easier version:
- Pick crap out of existing skin glue.
- Put two (or three) coats of skin glue from can or tube on skins. Let each coat dry before applying the next one.
- Go ski.
This is what I did, and it works better than when the skins were new. I'm not sure about all this other crap you talk about, but I don't find it necessary. If you were in the Denver area, I'd let you come grab the excess I have from the can I got from REI last year...but I won't be shipping it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by XXX-er
Gee, maybe someone should contact BD. But beware. The guy in CS may be overloaded finding tele and crampon parts for warranty and not have the solid info from engineering. Also, marketing may be in the lead and pushing $39.95 sheets rather than $14.95 tubes to make this years numbers for the new bosses. Just sayin.
You ever used something like this (w/o a razor blade):Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Steve
http://www.harborfreight.com/hot-bla...ver-65057.html
Temp range is supposedly Heating Tube: 248° F - Razor Blade: 169° F
^^^ Overkill IMO. $10 heat gun from HF and a scraper.
Neither of my experiments worked.
No matter how I apply the glue, or how thin the veneer is, the tube of BD Gold I have results in a glue that remains sticky and leaves residue on everything it touches with pressure. Just pinching them is enough to leave a thin amount of tacky glue on my fingers. If I handle them too much with bare palm skin, putting my gloves on becomes a hassle. They make a real mess of my bases.
And get this, I shit you not, they leave glue residue on a block of red Toko wax. Time to give up.
Half seriously, fucking with my skins is only second to fucking with my dog. ;)
So whats next:
1. return the tube to the shop, ask them to pass on the customer feedback to the local rep. Send a polite email to BD USA for their info - half pointless because I am in Japan.
2. strip the skins clean and buy some other brand of glue. Start my migration away from an existing voluntary full-retail-paying 100+ day-a-year skin using brand loyalty to Black Diamond.
3. moan like a pointless hippy: You killed my skins man!
Sorry to hear it, Hohes. I've done 3 or 4 re-glues with the tube glue and got good results, i.e., same results as my previous ca. 10 reglues with the glue from the can. Every time I let it dry 24+ hours in a clean dry warm place, then ironed it in with parchment paper. Ironing in with paper is key, IME.
As I pointed out that was SDH's blurb but here is another link to BD's video
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com...renew-transfer
which also calls for scraping off the old glue & heating the new glue ?
I wish I had just tried to revive the old glue that had hardened and dried out a little.
yeah, I always seem to fall into the "must be a bad batch" category.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Steve
Even after putting the skin in a freezer it still leaves residue.
I'm going to try ironing them one last time.
Why does BD make folds on the glue renew strips?? The creases fucked up my re-gluing application bad. keep that shit rolled up fools. damn. time to go buy some tubed glue... though before I do that, can anyone tell me if it is possible to heat and distribute glue from the renew strip in a more liquid form??
I answered this myself. Yes, you can take a ball of messed up glue from a renew strip, heat it up, and iron it flat. whew!Quote:
Originally Posted by snomaster
So I took a good hard look at myself and my methods. Black Diamond make good gear... so why am I suddenly having a glue goop problem when few others do? ....Must be my fault.
Start again, hot scraper this time, not iron/blotter. Removed every scrap of glue I could, bought a brand new tube, applied it, let it dry 24 hours, ironed with some BD skin backing I scored from the shop, let it cool, peel. Stored glue-to-glue, used them once. So far so good. Glue performance just like the old can glue.