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I'm thinking about getting some ankle weights for hiking this fall to get in shape for ski touring so I don't suck so bad. The thought was to imitate ski boots and skis. Any thoughts on this?
Did a search and found that it can be bad, but I don't understand how it's any different than wearing ski boots while hiking...
You are overthinking it! Hike with a pack!.....ankle weights.....jeeeeez!
#Idon'thavethefactstobackthisup but I believe that would fuck up your knees.
Seriously. Spend less time thinking about ankle weights and more time doing some sit-ups.
I think the OP has a point.
I don't know about all y'alls, but the part of me that gets tired/cramps up ski touring early season are my hip flexors and groin muscles. Muscles that are especially used to pick up ski boots and skis when touring/sidestepping. I don't care how heavy your pack is, it doesn't work those muscles near as much as ski touring. I can train my lungs and quads easily. I've thought about doing the same thing. (ankle weights) Never did though...
As for potential harm...who knows? (somebody probably. just not me)
I agree with eshed - very different muscles used when weight is put on the shoulders vs the feet. No amount of summer with a heavy pack has ever fully prepared me for the first day or two of wearing snowshoes (more affectionately referred to as misery slippers at work).
That said, ski touring is relatively low impact, your stride is very different, and you are wearing very supportive footwear. Any exercise should reflect that to prevent damage - especially to your feet and perhaps your shins & knees.
Talked with my physio couple years ago about the subject. She advised strongly against any excessive weight training.
Her take was the (larger) added weights fucked up your walk mechanics and messed up things fast.
Said that short,low impact trainings were ok. Like 15-30 min stair/uphill walks with small weights (0.5-1kg) were ok up not
3-4 hour speedwalks,let alone running...
I would say the basic 3 days of running + 3 days of gym/week is enough to get you in shape for the winter. If you wanna keep things intresting, then maybe you could substitute something with exotic training regimes, like the said stair walking with backpack+weights.
Thing is to have your core strong in the beginning of the season, stamina and endurance will build up during the 6-9 month season anyway. But with a weak core, you are liable to fuck up your back/groins/knees etc...
^^ What his physio said. Walking mechanics are not skinning mechanics.
If you want a low impact way to work your hip flexors over longer time periods ride a bike with pedal straps or clips but only use upward pedal strokes.
Another vote against, might even be a study done about it but common sense prevails.
No matter what you do, downhlil skiing, skinning and bootpacking in ski boots is different from what you can reasonably train in the offseason. The goal of your off-season should be general strength/conditioning. Some things I think help:
Squats (back/front, DB split squats are good too)
Deadlifts/RDLs (hamstrings and butt + torso strength)
Weight step-ups (I prefer barbell on back, can do these with a light load like 95# for 100 reps, kind of feels like bootpacking)
Running/hiking, good for conditioning/endurance
Don't forget the upper body, shoulder press, bench pull-ups (balance your push/pull)
As Meat said, a strong torso is important to protect your back and groin. If you are a desk jockey, work on your hip mobility in the off season (http://www.mobilitywod.com/ is a great resource). If you have tight hip flexors/dormant glutes from sitting in a chair all the time, your lumbar spine is going to take a beating in many athletic pursuits, including running.
If you want to work your hip flexors, hook your toe into a light kettlebell and lift your foot up as high as you can w/ out leaning, do flutterkicks (lay on back and raise alternative feet 10" at a time). You can use leg weights if you want.
Add to that overhead squats.Quote:
Originally Posted by gramboh
It must be functional if you use a kettlebell! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by neufox47
The OP has a point.
While its kinda a dumb idea to hike with ankle weights, its about as "functional" as you can get by walking/hiking/ anything but skinning.
The only reason its partial legit is that you have to drag the weight of boots, skis, skins etc when you are skinning.
I would take them off for the way back down. I also wouldn't do it for more than 2 days per week and only for short amounts of time.
Another option is a Nordic Track. You can find them on craigslist for $10.
I hike 1.5 miles/day minimum. Use ankle weights 2-3 times/wk. Go at a slower pace with the weights. Go quickly while rocking to my tunes on the other days. Fortunately I have a 3 mile paved trail in my back yard so I can look like an old fool and no one sees. Better that sitting here posting methinks. I still suck on the uphill. My trail only has 60' of vert.
Forgive my ignorance, but isn't wearing a 4 lb + ski boot the same as ankle weights? I suppose the boot provides ankle support, but how would either effect walking mechanics differently? Running I understand would be bad, but stairs really don't seem any different.
get in the gym and start doing squats and deadlifts.
After I started riding my bike to work full time, noticed a significant improvement when on long[er] tours. biking uphill and using the upward stroke is where its at. :biggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stikki
I love overhead squats. The load burden is less, but not only does it work your core and upper torso, it also forces you get in tune w/ your balance more so than a traditional squat would. If not dead lifting, I do overhead squats. I like a routine of 27,21,15,9,3 @ 110# - quickly as you can. This is a takeoff from a CROSSFIT style routine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuckerman
do some leg blasters too. :cussing:
the strain that you feel in your hip flexors can also be a flexibility issue. Hiking with skis forces you to bring your knees up higher than when you walk or jog, the motion is closer to that of sprinting than jogging. find a low hurdle or fence and do a few step overs a couple of times a week. It will strengthen the flexors and give you a better range of mobility. It will also help out your balance and general coordination.
Another plug for Kstar's MobilityWOD and being a supple leopard.
You can get strong and fit for touring without too many sport specific movements.
http://www.buckman-hardy.co.uk/images/Ski_Simulator.jpg
Squat, deadlift and press. Sprint, run hills and go on the occasional 30+min journey.
By increasing your anaerobic capacity you can make significant improvements in the efficiency of your aerobic engine. You don't have to train long and slow to go long and slow out in the snow. If you can squat 225#s 10 times, you can damn sure move a ski boot as many times as you want.
If you want to work for your uphill performance the following matter:
- Raise your heart rate, do lots of cardio 5 times a week (Biking, hiking up steep hills, do some intervals in between like 5 or 6 times to get that lactic acid feeling built)
- Work the abs
- Stretch 3x or more a week and use a foam roller
- Use this to work the groin and hips, it'll work out those muscles you don't use biking or running/hiking http://www.performbetter.com/webapp/...752_1003893_-1
Other then that I don't do the gym thing, it would help, but I'll never be able to get into a consistent routine with it. What tools have I bought? I bought a PVC pipe to roll out my legs and one of those aforementioned black bands.
Why? What is this accomplishing for you? In my opinion these types of workouts are like an all mountain ski. They aren't really good at developing strength, endurance, muscular endurance, or VO2, but they are passable for all of them. The one benefit I see from them is that they are good at making people work hard who are normally lazy in the gym.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic.A
EXACTLY, go running, if it isnt hard, keep pushingQuote:
Originally Posted by neufox47
#2 post wins!Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotsman50
Some time back there was an excellent thread on ankle health. Someone posted a link to an excellent article from the NYT. How to Fix Bad Ankles. A must read for every skier.
^^^^ Truth. No one uses these things anymore. If you want to build up your legs for skiing, bikes or hiking. Try loading a pack with rocks if you're worried about not getting enough of a workout.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone Skiing
Overhead squats are good but doing them all the time makes little sense. Squats are the king of resistance exercises. A lower "load burden" is not good for getting stronger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic.A
For skiing, and almost all athletic pursuits, I prefer doing a mixture of rear foot elevated split squats, front squats, single leg deadlifts, and hang cleans over traditional squats. I think the back squat is a highly overrated exercise. It's more of a lower back exercise than a leg exercise. According to my friends biomechanics professor, a huge reason that people new to back squats jump weight so fast is that the biggest initial hurdle is getting your nervous system / spine used to holding hundreds of lbs.
Isn't that the point? That is exactly why squats are good. The entire point of resistance training is to train your muscular and nervous systems to move heavy loads. Why would you want to avoid making your back strong?Quote:
Originally Posted by neufox47
Many olympic weightlifters back squat ass-to-grass 6 days a week without any significant rate of injury. They do front squats and overhead squats as accessory exercises to focus stress on smaller parts of the system that are important for O-lifts. Why do they do back squats more often than the others? Better results.
The notion that back squats are unhealthy is a myth. If you squat properly, it can even be done without an ACL. Using a variety of accessory squats in lieu of back squats is like flossing and using mouth wash instead of brushing your teeth.
Like many have said, you're waaaay overthinking this. If you want better training for ski touring, just hike faster, for longer. Hike fast enough that you feel like you might die. Do that a bunch and a moderate pace in the skin track will feel easy.
the routine is not for the development strength [that's why I dead lift at low rep and squat likewise]. Endurance, same as the above, but I bike to work 25 miles round trip every day, and I bike hard. But I think the above routine has improved my muscular stamina significantly. whether it be biking, in the skin track - long tours, yoyo, on the way up, and on the way down. and all other outdoor activities for that matter too.
I like the comparison of the workout to a all mountain ski...doesn't really excell in one area or the other. I guess I look at skiing and wonder when stregth, endurance, stamina, etc. are not all needed at the same time to some degree or another.
I am not a health expert, but I do what I find to be best suited for my needs. What does my routine accopmplish for me? I can skin and ski with the best of them, all day, no issues. I can run half marathons at weeks notice, I can do the things I want to, with out too much struggle. It might not be the best routine out there. It also keep me at 14% body fat:)
and @ I've seen BD [sorry, multiqoute was freezing my computer]. I only do the routine I think twice a week, and look to increase weight on a regular basis.
I also think its interesting how different everyone's training routine is. I don't care what people do, just stoked to see that people are out doing something to get in or stay in shape.
What about diets?
Quote:
Originally Posted by neufox47
If you are training to be an Olympic weightlifter you should be absolutely be doing back squats, deadlifts, and power cleans 2-3 times a week. (6 days a week to back squat is insane unless some of those days are unweighted IMO) Because that is your sport. But power lifting is it's own sport. I think people incorrectly associate optimizing power lifting performance with optimizing performance at wrestling, football, etc. If your goal is to back squat 500lbs, you should be back squating and doing other exercises to supplement it. If your goal is to be run faster, ski better, jump higher, etc, I think you should do exercises that optimize those movements. Back squats can have a role in those movements, but only a role. My biggest issue is when people think back squats are be all end all of training. As performed by most of the population, they increase slow overall power. They will barely make you perform better unless they are just one component of aQuote:
Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!
I'm not saying that someone who lifts weights and does lots of power lifting will not improve. Power lifting certainly has a place in every athletes training routine. But there certainly is a point of diminishing and eventually negative results for most athletes (especially regarding speed) if power lifting is the staple of your training. I think that most athletes, and especially highschool athletes, train to be strong and slow with endurance rather than fast and explosive and able to quickly recover from exertion. The workout mentioned above (27 down to 3 reps with the same weight) is a great example of the former type of workout.
The action of getting your nervous system / spine used to a compression force of hundreds of lbs is different than the getting your nervous system / muscles used to lifting / moving heavy loads. From what a bio-mechanics grad student told me, heavy squats cause a panic response from your nervous system.
I agree that if an athlete squats properly they have a very low instance of injury until they begin using 2 - 3+ times body weight for an athlete with BF of <20. However, most people do not or are incapable given their current body (muscle lengths, flexibility, height, etc) squat properly. Atypical body types exacerbate the problem, especially tall people. Learning how to takes a great deal of time and discipline. I just don't think it is worth it, for the limited benefits over other exercises it offers most athletes.
People have written books on this, so obviously I didn't magically distill the whole argument into 4 paragraphs.
mabye I missed it, but you dont' think doing traditional squats at all, is worth it?Quote:
Originally Posted by neufox47
edit: unless they are able to squat with excellent form.
For all the talk about weights, we have to remember that the guy wants to get fit for ski TOURING, not necessarily for pounding laps at the resort or dropping 50 footers.
Look at the guys who go fastest in the skin track - they're all skinny fuckers.
There are 2 things that are going to make you go fast on the uphill. Being light, and having a big cardio engine. The specific muscular strength stuff doesn't take long to come around at the start of the winter as long as you're getting out relatively regularly. Losing weight and developing that engine on the other hand can take a long time, depending on where you're starting from.
I personally think that if your main goal is backcountry skiing, spending hours in the weight room every week is a colossal waste of time. Riding the lifts, ok, more useful. But if you've got good technique, skiing soft snow in the backcountry isn't really going to take that much specific muscular strength. Better off spending your time hiking, or biking, or whatever.
Yeah, sorry totally hijacked this thread by geeking out about exercise. Not saying the above workouts won't help, I'm just saying there is better uses of your time IMO. Anything is better than nothing unless you get injured.
NickA - when I asked what it was accomplishing for you I meant, what do you hope to get from doing this exercise. If your goal is to increase muscular endurance and build muscle, you are on the right track. It is certainly going to cause hypertrophy. Although the last two sets are probably pointless. If you want to get stronger, faster, or quicker, this probably is not helping much. I also didn't mean for it to come off as questioning whether you are in shape or not.
My basic premise is that we should ask ourselves how each exercise and our entire program is helping us achieve our goals and whether there is a better system out there. Additionally, what are the potential consequences of a lift. Having a number of friends and an ex GF who are PT's has probably made me too cautious. I am constantly hearing stories about ruptured disks, torn biceps, etc. and chronic injuries caused by people training really hard and not balancing their workouts.
IMHO, weight training, ie squats, won't help with sore hip flexors. The soreness is likely fatigue and lack of flexability. Stretch often, take long runs and bike rides at an easy pace, and get out in the skin track as often as possible. The runs/rides should last over an hour, and you shouldn't feel totally ass kicked when you get home. You can mix in any kind of high intensity work that you'd like, but don't forgo the sustained effort long days in exchange.
If you want to target your hip flexors, get in a pool with short fins, like zoomers, and flutter kick on your back, arms over your head in a streamline, and NO kickboard. Vary the speed and length of the kick throughout the workout. You'll also be working your lower core and quads, and conditioning all of them to the repeated low resistance beating they take skinning. And I'm serious about the kickboard, if your back isn't arched enough to float, you will tighten up, and it will be counter productive.
You may now return to the regularly scheduled TGR, what you do is too pussy for my ego, thread.
Good advice. And if you really want to be a beast in the skin track, get out for one long bike ride a week in the off-season, try to get the duration up to (or above) 4hrs. No crazy efforts but steady.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chowda
I always assumed the sore hip flexors were something that every backcountry newb went through. I know I did. Just getting out in the skin track more fixed it for me. Nothing wrong with stretching tho.