Suggestions on this avy setup....

So this is what I am going to buy. Never have bought a beacon, probe, and shovel but from reading some threads this sounds like a pretty good setup for getting started in the backcountry. Plus I wanted to buy the good stuff that will last a while. So give me some comments, call me a JONG, or say whatever the hell you want. Thanks.

Backcountry Access Tracker DTS beacon
http://www.backcountry.com/store/BCA...TS-beacon.html

Black Diamond QuickDraw Carbon Probe 230
http://www.backcountry.com/store/BLD...Probe-230.html

Black Diamond Telescoping Bobcat Shovel
http://www.backcountry.com/store/BLD...at-Shovel.html

Oh, one more thing - I have a Dakine Heli Pro pack - am I going to have any problems fitting the probe and shovel in this pack?

Yep, you want a beacon, shovel and probe. You also will want to make sure you know how to use it and that whoever you will be skiing with knows has the same items (they don't have to be identical - all beacons work on the same frequency) and knows how to use it too.

Most avy transceivers have a 5 year guarantee and should last much longer. The other stuff is much cheaper and tends to be pretty durable too. There are loads of comments about different items in the telemarktips forums. Personally I would recommend a BCA Tracker as easiest to use for a novice.

Check out www.avalanchetools.com - they seem to have the best prices and their packages offer great value.

Oh, and, since you ask... JONG ;)

All that works for me, though I've got 1 of the older AL shovels.
Plastic shovels here in the NW dont cut it.
All that stuff'll last, I've got alotta daze w/mine in the pack including a tumble over some 20' cliffs. I was wrecked, gear was fine.

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Originally Posted by Mulletizer

Check out www.avalanchetools.com - they seem to have the best prices and their packages offer great value.

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Thanks, man. I think I'll order from them. Great deals. I can get a free probe when I order the beacon!

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Originally Posted by Schralper

Plastic shovels here in the NW dont cut it.

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I hear occasional gripes about plastic blades. What' s the score? Metal blades can bend.

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Originally Posted by bad_roo

I hear occasional gripes about plastic blades. What' s the score? Metal blades can bend.

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The water content of the coastal snow here in the PNW makes the snow really heavy (relative to continental snowpack). When it comes down in an avy, it sets like concrete.

On a small road avy up at Baker a few years ago, my buddy with a lexan shovel couldn't chop through the debris like I could with my metal shovel. His blade just kept bending.

I went to Avalanchetools.com and they are offering this package that looks pretty good, all for $340:

DTS Beacon

Voile T Wood Shovel
http://www.backcountry.com/store/VOL...od-Shovel.html

BD Quickdraw Super Tour Probe 265

Any comment of the Voile T Wood Shovel? - it's extendable and has a saw. has a 16" blade though - does that mean width or length?

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Originally Posted by Below Zero

So this is what I am going to buy. Never have bought a beacon, probe, and shovel but from reading some threads this sounds like a pretty good setup for getting started in the backcountry. Plus I wanted to buy the good stuff that will last a while. So give me some comments, call me a JONG, or say whatever the hell you want. Thanks.

Black Diamond Telescoping Bobcat Shovel
http://www.backcountry.com/store/BLD...at-Shovel.html

Oh, one more thing - I have a Dakine Heli Pro pack - am I going to have any problems fitting the probe and shovel in this pack?

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Zero-

Check the size of the BD Bobcat shovel. I think I had a rebranded version of the Bobcat (until I lost the handle in the BC: self-JONG!). It's a great shovel with a large blade and a big extendable handle, but I had trouble fitting it in my day pack, which is a little larger than the Dakine Heli-Pro.

Last season I bought the Backcountry Access Traverse EXT shovel. I lost some blade size and it has a T handle instead of a D grip, but its much lighter and fits better in my pack.

Oh, and take an avy education class. I can't emphasize this enough. And make sure its one with burial recovery drills where they bury dummies. You want at least a 50/50 split on class time/field time. The class I took was fun, but more impotantly, I realized how little I knew before I took it.

And practice - a lot.


edit: And someone else might be able to answer this better than me, but isn't there a maggot discount at backcountry.com? Call them and see what package deals they will offer you. I've ordered from them a bunch of times and I've always been happy with them.

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Originally Posted by bad_roo

I hear occasional gripes about plastic blades. What' s the score? Metal blades can bend.

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Like edub said.

Broken personally a ortovox plastic shovel. went down from the hilt of the
blade.it was cold and i wasnt too carefull hitting hard snow and pop.

Below, unless you get a extremely good price on the carbon sond,dont buy it.
Aluminum one aint that much heavier,(30-40gr?) and it is a lot cheaper.

The bobcat is a good shovel. You can loose the extra piece for light BC use (well,you dont need it unless you dig shelters or do lot of pits) and only use the D-shaft part.That way youll save some weight.

Fucky thing is if you get the BD Snow Saw for the shovel.
Fucktards have designed the saw that way that it doesnt fit the handle part unless you saw a 1cm piece of the tip of the saw.
And if you put the saw in the extra telescope part of the shovel, the grip is 90´in the wrong position!


All the stuff fits in your backpack though.

I love the word though.I use it way too much, though.

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Originally Posted by eDub

Oh, and take an avy education class. I can't emphasize this enough. And make sure its one with burial recovery drills where they bury dummies. You want at least a 50/50 split on class time/field time. The class I took was fun, but more impotantly, I realized how little I knew before I took it.

And practice - a lot.

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The key. Knowledge and Practice.

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Originally Posted by Spamhelmet

Broken personally a ortovox plastic shovel. went down from the hilt of the blade.it was cold and i wasnt too carefull hitting hard snow and pop.

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Was it the blue-bladed Ortovox with the funky L-handle? 'Cause that's the one that was bending while friend tried to chop with it.

I also went through a hassel with BD over the ripper saw that they pulled off the market due to "deviations from BD specifications" and then never re-issued to fit in the handle of my shovel. Oh well, at least I got a real person at BD who was honest with me and kept me updated. With me, good customer service can go a long way to fixing screw-ups.

Setup looks good, and a reasonably priced package to boot.

The Tracker is prolly the best beacon for those venturing into the BC for the first time, and just as good for crusty oldbies.

The Super Tour probe would be my choice over the carbon fiber probe because even though it is a tiny bit heavier, because it's aluminum rather than composite, it would seem less likely to suffer catastrophic failure (bend not break) when stressed (i.e. probing heavy blocky quick-dry cement).

The Voile shovel is a nice combo, and again preferable to your original choice of the BD Bobcat which is a little undersized, and with the attendant problems with their snow saw (though I think BD might have fixed that problem). The US Army tested most of the avy rescue shovels out there before making a large procurement (I think for the 10th Mtn. Division) and the Voile shovels were found to be the most durable and reliable. If (God forbid) you do find yourself frantically digging for your bud, you'll also appreciate the larger scoop relative to the Bobcat much more than the grams you save.

I have the kitty litter plastic scoop shovels from BD and Life-Link, and will sometimes bring 'em on certain days, but if I ever venture into terrain where I'm more concerned about hazard, I always bring my metal Voile. And if my pardner forgets his shovel, that's the one I give him, and carry the kitty litter scoop myself.

The addition of the Voile saw is a nice touch, and once you begin to learn more about snow study, it'll come in handy. Plus since it cuts wood, it's an extra survival tool.

Finally, as others have mentioned, and is probably obvious, I can't stress enough that the tools are only as good as the user. The best tools in inexperienced hands won't hold up to older, crappier gear wielded by someone who practices a lot and has studied and reflected on his/her snow safety. Experience & knowledge trump gear every time. So get out there, learn as much as you can, have fun and be safe!

The T-Wood shovel blade is about 10" wide and 12.5" long. I'm not sure where you got 16" from - the saw maybe? (but I think it is shorter, more like 12"). I just got one - it seems super solid and nicely made although I may make holes in it to make it a better deadman (quicker, easier and more stable). And the saw is great for threatening Mrs Mulletizer with when she looks as if she's about to get militant. :)

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Originally Posted by Mulletizer

The T-Wood shovel blade is about 10" wide and 12.5" long. I'm not sure where you got 16" from

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From Backcountry.com on the T-wood shovel blade:

Shaft Material: Aluminum
Blade Material: Aluminum
Length Attached: 28"
Length Detached: 17"
Blade Size: 16"
Telescoping: Yes 36"
Saw Included: Yes (hi-tensile steel saw)
Probe Included: No
Recommended use: Avalanche Safety; Backcountry snowmobiling
Weight: 2lbs
Warranty: Lifetime

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Originally Posted by Mulletizer

The T-Wood shovel blade is about 10" wide and 12.5" long. I'm not sure where you got 16" from - the saw maybe? (but I think it is shorter, more like 12"). I just got one - it seems super solid and nicely made although I may make holes in it to make it a better deadman (quicker, easier and more stable). And the saw is great for threatening Mrs Mulletizer with when she looks as if she's about to get militant. :)

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e-dub: it was the red blade with the same funky L grip. My friend broke his own (same) spade one day later from the shaft.

Mullet, how did you rig the cabeling for the deadman?
I tried to to put some on my shovel and it got ugly. 5mm spectra was too complicated to rig on (without it being on the way when showeling) and
some small carabiner stuff throuhg the holes seem abit scetchy...

And to correct, my shovel blade is TeleLynx and the shaft is the goddam TeleBobcat, since i lost the shaft somewhere in sweden...

Edit: even if the BD webpages states that the ripper saw fits in the telebobcat,it doesnt...apparently..

Shovel test 1 - extend handle, place shovel face down on floor then stand on blade where handle connects - now bounce.

Shovel test 2 - extend handle - swing overhead like an axe and strike cement or similar hard floor.

I know the purple SOS and and Voille shovels stand up to this abuse.

Friends don't let their friends carry plastic shovels.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Shovel test 1 - extend handle, place shovel face down on floor then stand on blade where handle connects - now bounce.

Shovel test 2 - extend handle - swing overhead like an axe and strike cement or similar hard floor.

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Ha! Those were a couple of the tests the US Army used (along with more scientific ones, I suppose). The story is they had some buff 300+ lb Marine Sargeant not just bounce, but take a flying jump onto the blade.

Edit:

Mullitizer - doesn't the T-wood come with holes on the end of the blade for deadman use?

P.S. And yeah, those clear blue/red plastic blades really are POS, and the L-handle doesn't work for squat when trying to move a lot of heavy snow. While aluminum might bend (and in the Voiles, prolly won't unless you're supa buff), again it has less of a chance of catastrophic failure than composite, plastics, whatever.

P.P.S. Personally I prefer D-handles to T-handles for comfort, but the T-handles are more compact and easier to store on ice axe loops.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Shovel test 1 - extend handle, place shovel face down on floor then stand on blade where handle connects - now bounce.

Shovel test 2 - extend handle - swing overhead like an axe and strike cement or similar hard floor.

I know the purple SOS and and Voille shovels stand up to this abuse.

Friends don't let their friends carry plastic shovels.

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What BS. I've watched a Voile break shoveling, I've broken a Life-LInk shoveling. Both bent/broke at the handle connection. I'm not buff.

The common way to break it is for someone to jam the shovel in vertically then pull back at the end of the extended handle.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

What BS. I've watched a Voile break shoveling, I've broken a Life-LInk shoveling. Both bent/broke at the handle connection. I'm not buff.

The common way to break it is for someone to jam the shovel in vertically then pull back at the end of the extended handle.

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It's not bull shit I've seen it and done it to both. That doesn't mean it's impossible to break either shovel but it's as good a test as I can think of. Most plastic/composite blades will either snap as you describe or shatter on the "axe" test.

I know I don't want to be trying to dig a friend out with a broken shovel almost as much as I don't want them trying to dig me out with one.

Plastic offers no clear advantage other the than neglible weight savings (they also might be cheaper?) - It's not something I think you should compromise on.

Looks like a good setup. BD probes are the best (just don't get the 1.9m too short).

I think composite blade shovels are the best. They are stiff like metal but won't bend like Al or break like PCB (lexan, though I've never seen a documented case of this).

BD doesn't make composite blade shovels anymore (it was a carryover from a previous acquisition and they had too many shovels in their line) so I am going with Life Link: http://www.life-link.com/shovels.htm#companchor Ice Pro extendible D handle $46.

DTS is clearly the easiest beacon out there, but also has one of the shortest ranges (though if you read BCA's studies, they have a wide recieve tolerance more akin to analog beacons so they will pick up frequency drifted beacons better).

Go with a 300cm. probe. If you ever have to use (and i have) you will appreciate the extra lenth and not having to bend over so much during extended periods of probing. Seems that they are built of stronger stuff anyway. 200cm probes are nice and light but that translates to flimsy and too short during an actual rescue. Life-link and BCA both make a good one.
F.N.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

What BS. I've watched a Voile break shoveling, I've broken a Life-LInk shoveling. Both bent/broke at the handle connection. I'm not buff.

The common way to break it is for someone to jam the shovel in vertically then pull back at the end of the extended handle.

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Yeah, you're right – I shoulda been clearer, I meant it would seem implausible (though not impossible) to bend the aluminum blade. Like you mention, the shovels can break, usually at the weld/joint and while levering 'em vertically. But that doesn't seem like the most efficient or safest way to move a lot of snow, anyway, though suppose it depends on the shape of the terrain.

And although the Voile has the same joint weakness site, apparently their weld stood up better than others, according to the testing.

I have the Life-Link lexan and though it's probably adequate, it rarely gets used. My BD composite seems OK, and might do the trick, though I haven't tested it extensively. My Voile is the heaviest and least packable, but the most trustworthy. I'll be testing out one of those SnowClaws pretty soon, but only as an adjunct or extremely low-hazard-day tool.

Summit's point on range of the DTS is well-taken, and the main reason I got the Pieps DSP instead, though the DTS is still a fine choice, especially for someone starting out. The DSP has the drawback of supposedly having more trouble w/freq shifted beacons (due to a narrower range tolerance), but I haven't personally found this to be a problem yet – it was able to easily "see" both my old Ortovox F1 and my old old Ortovox dual-freq F2 without any problems.

Below Zero - excellent beacon info here to get you started:

http://couloirmag.com/special/mag_pd...series_pdf.asp

But of course, not a replacement for classes and field practice.

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Originally Posted by Fieldys Nuts

200cm probes are nice and light but that translates to flimsy and too short during an actual rescue.

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If you are buried that deep you are dead. 240cm seems about right for rec users.

PNW-
BS was more reading something into the results of that test; it just showcases the differing failure modes. A bending AL shovel is about as useful as a broken plastic one. You end up grabbing the blade and using it as a scoop.

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Originally Posted by Tri-Ungulate

Yeah, you're right – I shoulda been clearer, I meant it would seem implausible (though not impossible) to bend the aluminum blade. Like you mention, the shovels can break, usually at the weld/joint and while levering 'em vertically. But that doesn't seem like the most efficient or safest way to move a lot of snow, anyway, though suppose it depends on the shape of the terrain.

Summit's point on range of the DTS is well-taken, and the main reason I got the Pieps DSP instead, though the DTS is still a fine choice, especially for someone starting out. The DSP has the drawback of supposedly having more trouble w/freq shifted beacons (due to a narrower range tolerance), but I haven't personally found this to be a problem yet – it was able to easily "see" both my old Ortovox F1 and my old old Ortovox dual-freq F2 without any problems.

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Implausible or Improbable that's the failure mode I've seen in both - but I agree it only comes about when the shovel is used improperly (I lent mine out to someone and it was given back bent :mad: ) I've found the most efficent way to shovel snow more of a scooping maneuver.

r.e. Transceiver range - I always interpreted the results of this study (it is one of the conclusions):
http://geosurvey.state.co.us/avalanc...aspx?tabid=176
As showing that range was not an important factor in determining the success of beacon searches. The study may be old, but the max range of transceivers hasn't increased since then.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

r.e. Transceiver range - I always interpreted the results of this study (it is one of the conclusions):
http://geosurvey.state.co.us/avalanc...aspx?tabid=176
As showing that range was not an important factor in determining the success of beacon searches. The study may be old, but the max range of transceivers hasn't increased since then.

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Thanks for that link - though a key point of the study being old is that although max range hasn't changed overmuch, it predates widespread use of digital transceivers. The conclusions of recreationalists having more trouble with long-range detection might be due to inability to visualize flux lines as part of the search algorithm. With the new digitals, it's more-or-less a snap.

The DTS seems to have a quicker response time than the DSP, and is more intuitive, and therefore is prolly the best for someone like BZ - I'll agree that range is probably not a huge issue. But another reason I got the Pieps is I like the multiple burial algorithm, which is something I've always had the most frustration with in terms of keeping my skills up. That being said, the DTS also has a multiple burial mode - just not quite as straightforward.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

r.e. Transceiver range - I always interpreted the results of this study (it is one of the conclusions):
http://geosurvey.state.co.us/avalanc...aspx?tabid=176
As showing that range was not an important factor in determining the success of beacon searches. The study may be old, but the max range of transceivers hasn't increased since then.

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I read that article when I was deciding which beacon to buy (I bought the BCA DTS), and if I recall, the range argument from BCA/Atkins' point of view is that, despite the difference in range, the DTS is still faster because: if the user is doing a proper primary search, upon receipt of the first signal, the user slows down dramatically. On beacons with longer range, that first signal provides no directional cues. However, the DTS provides visual directional cues upon first contact. Therefore, the argument goes, that both primary and secondary search with the DTS end up being faster. My personal experience and the testing reviews I have read tend to support BCA's theory.

In fact, didn't Couloir do a test last year of all the new beacons? I think the BCA DTS was still the fastest. I think the Pieps DPS pulled in close behind, but also had a problem with "ghost burials" in multiple burial situations. (Somebody help me here, my memory is failing on the details.)

Oh, and I disagree about "being dead" if you are buried more than 240cm. I met a guy buried vertically with the top of his head being closest to the surface. He was rescued by companions when one of their probes hit the toe of his boot. A 240 cm probe wouldn't have reached the boot. All I'm saying is longer is better. Make the decision for yourself. Whenever I have a decision on avy gear, I always ask myself, what would I want my rescuers to be packing if I were buried?

edit: Tri-Ungulate posted faster and probably explained it more clearly anyway.

Was hoping somebody would post a thread like this. On beacons, I'm a complete avy jong, and was deciding between the DTS and the DSP. It appears that for someone like me, who skis 30 or so days a year, a DTS would be better b/c of the lesser number of days of use/practice necessary to attain competence (not that I would practice less, just that I would be better for a given number of hours practicing). Thanks.

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Originally Posted by eDub

Oh, and I disagree about "being dead" if you are buried more than 240cm.

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Your talking about efficent probing technique; I'm talking about burial statistics. There hasn't been a successful recovery of a body buried >2m. I doubt there will be - just digging through that much debris would take you a long time. More than good gear I want someone who knows what they're doing. A shorter probe, decent shovel, and analog beacon leaves almost enough money leftover for an Avy 1 course if funds are short.

r.e. Beacons - ya, Couloir liked the Tracker. It's a decent article, I dislike that they didn't include the data from their tests (at least in the copy I have) they just say the Tracker was "faster". Several other test proclaim the Tracker fastest, but the difference between it and the next beacon is close to measurement error. Based on several posts by the Couloir author on TTips it seemed (to me) that the author had a bias in favor of the Tracker and it's technology going into the test.

The picture of the T-wood on the tag that came with it shows it as having two slots in it for rigging a deadman; mine doesn't have these. It has two holes but the size and positioning of these means that they are no good for rigging a deadman - anything would just pull out. I will probably cut two slots in the right place so that it can have a sling threaded though it (temporarily) that won't cause it to pull ou under load.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

Your talking about efficent probing technique; I'm talking about burial statistics. There hasn't been a successful recovery of a body buried >2m.

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cj001f -

Where did you get that data from? (I don't doubt you. I would just like to read the article/study.)

Here's a good shovel test: go out to your driveway (or anyone's) in the early morning and find a big pile of plow debris that's been in the sun. It'll have set up into big icy chunks.

Now try to dig into it. Bet you wish you had a metal shovel!

Here's another test: would you use your avvy shovel to dig out your car in the morning? If not, how are you going to dig out your friend?

Sometimes I wish my shovel was smaller and lighter; I have an SOS telescopic with the snow saw. But I use it all the time to dig out the car and I know that it won't fail me if (oh s#!t, oh s#!t) I ever need it.

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Originally Posted by Spats

Here's another test: would you use your avvy shovel to dig out your car in the morning? If not, how are you going to dig out your friend?

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No. Pavement will sharpen Al to a razors edge and shred plastic. For the record I like AL shovels more than plastics; neither are as durable as I'd like, particularly when it see's daily use digging out cars, building kickers, etc.

eDub-
Here's the geeky snow paper where I came up with the >2m statistic from
http://www.bcaccess.com/documents/Pr...B_Jamieson.pdf
Figure 1 is the bit I took that number from. If your interested in Avy Science the BC Access site has a ton of good info. Also check out the American Avalanche Association's site - for $20 you can subscribe to the Avalanche Review which, while geeky, has alot of good information about what's going on.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

No. Pavement will sharpen Al to a razors edge and shred plastic.

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Thanks for clarifying: I meant "dig out the car" in the sense that you could do it without wishing for a real shovel, not that you'd actually do it every day.

For serious snow shoveling work, go to your favorite hardware store and get one of these:
http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/pro...asp?id=7029499

It's plastic, but no one will die if you break it shoveling out your truck. And you're much less likely to put big scratches in your fenders with a plastic scoop.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

eDub-
Here's the geeky snow paper where I came up with the >2m statistic from
http://www.bcaccess.com/documents/Pr...B_Jamieson.pdf
Figure 1 is the bit I took that number from. If your interested in Avy Science the BC Access site has a ton of good info. Also check out the American Avalanche Association's site - for $20 you can subscribe to the Avalanche Review which, while geeky, has alot of good information about what's going on.

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Thanks cj001f, I thought I'd read everything on the BCA site. but its been awhile and it looks like they posted some new stuff.