VERTICAL TOE RELEASE - Does it matter?

So, most of the solid, reliable high DIN bindings have no upward toe release.

Granted, after the horror of the Marker Biometric ejection device, vertical release was unthinkable.
But, there seem to be some bindings like the Tyrolia/Fischer/Head/4Frnt family of bindings that have a vertical toe release in a DiN 15 or 18 hard charging binding.
http://www.tyrolia.com/ski-bindings/...ade/index.html

Tanner Hall used that binding up until he died for the third time. He even put his name on it.

That "diagonal toe" is the same as their race toe that has a stif upward release and is used in world cup skiing.
(the recreational toe in the lower bindings is not so good and more like a Marker Ejectomat binding)

Is this a desirable development?

Once you make the upward release strong enough for racers, does it do any good? Obviously it won't release if you are just off balance in the backseat.
It will never save your ACL from the phantom foot.

But if you take a digger or get your skis under a logfall, could it help?

Why have it on a race ski binding if it has no benefit?

bored and curious

The industry term "backward-twisting-fall" is really a code term for "only-gapers-fall-this-way."
Look for binding models WITHOUT this "feature." It will only lead to pre-releases if you are a ripper.

The Salomon z series toe releases vertically. While I've heard of lots of people breaking them, I have yet to have a problem. I've definitely released vertically (or pretty close to vertically) out of the toe in a crash. I recall one time getting kicked funny off of a windlip and landing on flat ground waaaaay in the backseat. Both toes released, which was a good thing. I've never come out of them when I felt that I shouldn't have, although I'm not a big guy and don't generally have problems with bindings.

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Originally Posted by DropCliffsNotBombs

The industry term "backward-twisting-fall" is really a code term for "only-gapers-fall-this-way."
Look for binding models WITHOUT this "feature." It will only lead to pre-releases if you are a ripper.

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^^^What he said^^^

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

So, most of the solid, reliable high DIN bindings have no upward toe release.

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Which ones?

All versions FKS and S916 both have upward release, and have had it for the last 20 years.............so you must be talking about some other bindings.

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Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

Which ones?

All versions FKS and S916 both have upward release, and have had it for the last 20 years.............so you must be talking about some other bindings.

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Huh???? :nonono2:

The only thing you could confuse as upward toe release in the Sally's you name, is the type of compresing/flexing release where the heel moves elastically backward along the binding track, and the toe backs out of the toe piece. That is not upward release. The toes do pivot outward and slightly diagonally-upward (only a few degrees) upon release, but not directly upward.

As for the FKS comment...I have never had the Sally thing happen to those, although it is technically possible as they do have heel elasticity...so I'm not sure where your confusion may be coming from.





and...

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

Tanner Hall used that binding up until he died for the third time. He even put his name on it.

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:fmicon:

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Originally Posted by iscariot

Huh???? :nonono2:

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Just because it's repeated on TGR, and you believe it, doesn't make it true.

The driver toe, from the S916 going all the way back to the 957 (and probably the 747), has upward release.

The P18 look toe going all the way back through the Z-Racing, has upward release, as does the geze version.

So, the last 20 years of both these bindings, every single one has upward release that I'm aware of. Including the S920.

The upward release IS fairly tight, compared to more common commercial bindings. If you don't beleive me, turn down the din and pull up on the toe wings.

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Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

Just because it's repeated on TGR, and you believe it, doesn't make it true.

The driver toe, from the S916 going all the way back to the 957 (and probably the 747), has upward release.

The P18 look toe going all the way back through the Z-Racing, has upward release, as does the geze version.

So, the last 20 years of both these bindings, every single one has upward release that I'm aware of. Including the S920.

The upward release IS fairly tight, compared to more common commercial bindings. If you don't beleive me, turn down the din and pull up on the toe wings.

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Its not through tgr that I know there is no upward release; its from working in ski and rental shops for pretty much all of the of the 1990's.

There is upward flex in the toe pieces (as would anything with that much leverage essentially mounted on a thin post), but no upward release threshold mechanism.

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Originally Posted by iscariot

There is upward flex in the toe pieces (as would anything with that much leverage essentially mounted on a thin post), but no upward release threshold mechanism.

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It's not flex....lol. :rolleyes2

fks 12/14 diagonal toe release
fks 15/18 lateral only

tyrolia 15/18 upward/diagonal toe release, (older models diagonal heel).

salomon 916 limited diagonal toe release (could be wrong)

I thought the Salomon toe wings (on 916 type toes) could release at a slightly upward angle, but there isn't technically an upward release. The main portion of the toe won't tilt upwards (not counting flex), but the wings will swing slightly upward when releasing, meaning that you can get a bit of semi-vertical release during the infamous backwards twisting fall.

Seriously.....turn down the din on a toe and try for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

Seriously.....turn down the din on a toe and try for yourself.

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While I agree that if you back the din all the way off it will basically disengage the top/winged part of the toe from the post and allow you to pull the toe vertically, this is not upward release for two reasons.

One: the upper toe housing is disengaged from the post upon which it creates tension, and therefore there are no din release values at specific thresholds. You have disabled the binding system. If you back the din all the way off it is no longer a usable binding, its a paper weight. This upward movement is removed when the din mechanism re-engages the pivot post.

Two: there is no din settable threshold release mechanism in the toes of the S916 or the FKS. No release threshold mechanism, no settable release values = no upward release.

What you are talking about is akin to saying that you can ride a bike with zero air in the tires*** and that's a valid, intended, and designed/engineered operation of riding the bike.

[end thread cunting/back to people who would like to weigh in on the OP's question]










***cue thread cunting about how you could do that if only you ran tubeless :rolleyes2

salomon driver toes can release at shallow angles. they will not release truly upwards. the motion in the toe peice when the spring is removed is to allow for shallow angles, there is no leverage to release.

set the din low enough you can turn the toe. i gaurentee you cannot lever it upwards (edit-) enough to have the boot release. it is to accomidate an angled release. somewhere around 25-30deg angle from horizontal to each side.

Anybody want to see pics?

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Originally Posted by iscariot

While I agree that if you back the din all the way off it will basically disengage the top/winged part of the toe from the post and allow you to pull the toe vertically, this is not upward release for two reasons.

One: the upper toe housing is disengaged from the post upon which it creates tension, and therefore there are no din release values at specific thresholds. You have disabled the binding system. If you back the din all the way off it is no longer a usable binding, its a paper weight. This upward movement is removed when the din mechanism re-engages the pivot post.

Two: there is no din settable threshold release mechanism in the toes of the S916 or the FKS. No release threshold mechanism, no settable release values = no upward release.

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That's all BS.

I'm not talking about talking the spring out or otherwise disabling the binding. I'm talking about turning it down to the bottom of the marked range, so you can check it without mucho force.

When I fall backwards my knees bend. Why would I want my bindings to release that way? If my knees were fused I'd want vertical release to prevent my legs from snapping in half right above my boots, 'cause that would suck.

Also, I just came across this completely unrelated http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thum...h-mono-ski.jpgpicture:

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Originally Posted by otto parts

fks 12/14 diagonal toe release
fks 15/18 lateral only

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Not true. The FKS 15 has upward toe release, just a very heavy spring that won't move much until just before (or after) your knees blow up. Can't speak to the 18, owned and used the 15.

As far as the OP, yes, slow twisting backward falls are more characteristic of intermediates backseating, but it can happen to anyone. Think about moguls and stumps and refrozen crap between trees with 6 inches of nice fresh over them. Not much room to begin with, and not the kinda terrain you mach and float, and the fresh obscures what's underneath. Oh, and (gasp) you're not on a super rockered ski, just something you use for everyday conditions. So you bury a tip against a hidden limb/rock/bump/UFO. Welcome to slow twisting falls backward for experts.

^^^^^^^^^ When I spear a stump or mogul, I release at the heels and do a forward roll or two. How do you fall backwards in that situation?

I was thinking about this last night while I couldn't sleep. I cannot remember the last time I came out of the toes, always the superman ejection from the heels. Granted I am not a super ripper but I ski pretty hard. I do remember skiing at Mt Spokane at night in high school during the eighties with a pair of Tyrolia 380 D's cranked. They had diagnol release at the toe and heel, I buried the tails exactly backwards down the fall line in a mogul field and thought I broke my legs off at the boot top. I think most bindings require some measure of lateral motion to truly release at the toe. there are exceptions of course, the look xm (early nineties?) comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

^^^^^^^^^ When I spear a stump or mogul, I release at the heels and do a forward roll or two. How do you fall backwards in that situation?

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Agree if the path in front is open and the tip stays buried. But if I'm looking at a tree in my face, I'm throwing myself away from it (sideways and backwards). This happened to me two years ago, in fact. Or if the tip hangs up on something for a moment like a bump taken at an angle as your line changes (sudden deceleration) and then breaks free (sudden acceleration toward new line) in tight quarters, that can send you backwards.

And if course my fav, a pedestrian on a ramp suddenly cutting cross your line off a lip, lot of heavy chop over refrozen. You swerve trying to figure out how to avoid cutting off the odd arm or leg, and suddenly you're accelerating on ice, so weight shift backwards for an instant, followed by recovery or yard sale. Not saying it's common, and not saying I might not be able to avoid some toe releases if I were better, just saying that it can happen even if you're marginally competent.

And FWIW, I've never had a Tyrolia/Head toe (I tend to ski the 14's) prerelease me...Markers, all the time back when I used them.

The upward toe release is a protection factor in a set of rather rare falls. In addition to the backward twisting fall, falling straight back also exposes the knee to potential ACL rupture. This is an uncommon injury because most people do not fall straight back, the physics don't typically align right for that mechanism. It does, however, happen, and often at slower speeds. The decision for the consumer is whether to protect against this rarer fall, or to opt for more retention to protect against pre-release in potentially more hazardous conditions.

In the straight-back fall, rearward movement of the heelpiece (the forward pressure spring) combined with some vertical play in most binding toe wings accomplishes much of what the vertical release would, just not at standardized, consistent and measurable levels of force.

[/pseudo-scientific response]

Thanks for the input.
Again, I am NOT trying to protect and ACL in a slow fall back.
That will never happen in a Tryrolia race toe set to 10 or 11.

I was just wondering about the rare yard sale/tomohawk/logfall/bizzaro world freak accident.

They use them in world cup races.
I guess the theory there is that you could be cartwheeling backwards or snag your tip on a gate while sliding headfirst down the hill.

I guess the consensus here is no, it does not matter.
But on the other hand, the high DIN Tyrolia/Head/Fischer seem to not pre-release and are good bindings (other than not working well with worn boot toes) so why not use them?

The Salomon Z binding is a whole other matter of plastic cheapness, but I have been thinking about a Z10 Ti for my wife. She does not charge, is not fat, and has no ACL.

Last spring, skiing in the alps, I ejected from my P18's right that way.

I dropped a small rimaye and found a hidden layer of old avalanche debris below soft snow. That shit threw me in the air again, waay backseat. The tails of my skis then snagged to this debris and both of my skis fell right off.
And I really am glad for that.

I was skiing my old 957s and floated/under-rotated a front flip on about a 25 foot drop, landed on a couple inches of new snow on a solid layer. I thought I had broken both my legs right at the shin.

I figure that the look heelpiece (for everything 14din and under) would probably release in that occasion. Is that right?

The 14 and down Look toe pieces release straight up, and it's upward release tension is set by your din, since the tow wings are basically just connected to one spring. From pushing on my 912, they definitely go straight up without having to go to the side. I'm pretty sure Tyrolias can go straight up too. The upward release tension in Tyrolias and Driver tows seems to depend on model type. I have no idea about the 15-18 pivots. I was under the impression that they couldn't so if you land a cliff switch, or were squatting way back in a DH race, recovering from getting knocked off balance, etc. you wouldn't release.
It seems like Marker and Quadraxes (Z included) and other low end garbage has to turn to the side before it releases upward, but with less lateral play or boot contact than a higher end binding, it just releases anyway.
And I thought you were most likely to be injured in a backwards twisting fall in the lift line? That's about the only time I do it. I'm also a klutz.
And Damian Sanders, lol, where've you been with your JONG self?

I had a diagonal heel and toe, they would release at odd times. One time in double ejection, go flying fashion for no legit reason. Would frequently lose a ski coming to a quick stop, it would just fly off and I'd finish the stop on one ski.

Switched to a Look/rossi single release style and never had another problem.

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Originally Posted by karpiel

I had a diagonal heel and toe, they would release at odd times. One time in double ejection, go flying fashion for no legit reason. Would frequently lose a ski coming to a quick stop, it would just fly off and I'd finish the stop on one ski.

Switched to a Look/rossi single release style and never had another problem.

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Agreed, the Diagonal Heel is not available on their higher DIN bindings for that reason.

The higher DIN bindings also have a different diagonal toe (same one used on world cup racers).

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Originally Posted by detrusor

I buried the tails exactly backwards down the fall line in a mogul field and thought I broke my legs off at the boot top.

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Same thing here.Laying upside down with 1 tail burried in the snow head first down the fall line.Waiting forever it seems for a slight lateral upward release to save my leg.It did release after breaking my Fibula.
Tyrolias /Mojo 15's might have saved my leg so I tried them the next season.Ended up not liking the sloppy interface on the toe mechanism though.

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Originally Posted by TWINS

Same thing here.Laying upside down with 1 tail burried in the snow head first down the fall line.Waiting forever it seems for a slight lateral upward release to save my leg.It did release after breaking my Fibula.
Tyrolias /Mojo 15's might have saved my leg so I tried them the next season.Ended up not liking the sloppy interface on the toe mechanism though.

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Are you talking about heel release? I'm confused to how this type of fall would trigger an upward toe release...:confused:

Picture the tail of a ski stuck in the snow with the base facing uphill.The weight of your body is pushing the boot heel down and pulling up on the boot toe.I was happy to get away with what I did.Could have easily been a tib/fib break.

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

Agreed, the Diagonal Heel is not available on their higher DIN bindings for that reason.

The higher DIN bindings also have a different diagonal toe (same one used on world cup racers).

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These had the race diagonal toe with the diagonal heel (HD14) for some reason. They were my first ever alpine binding coming from tele, didn't know shit about them.

Didn't know (until now) that there was a non diagonal heel.


I gave them to my mom and she couldn't be happier.

I just got some 4frnt deadbolt 15s out of necessity. The are they same design as the world cup tyrolias minus the track afd. I went to a backcountry freestyle comp in Pucon this weekend. First jump landed back seat, back slapped, pop, out came the toe and it felt like straight vertical angle. Toe din was on 9, i'm 150, it seemed like it came out a little too easy. In this case it wasn't a problem because I was already stopped, but it i back slapped off a cliff or something i wouldn't want the same thing to happen. It might have been a good release though because my knee was a little sore afterwards.

It still makes my think I would want to turn up the din if I keep the bindings. I ran fks all last season at a toe setting of 8 and heel of 10 and never came out ounce even in some rag dolls. But I was always glad they stayed on. The season before I was on fis 914s and had to keep the toe on 10 and the heel on 12 to feel secure. I'm guess it's just because the fks are so elastic.

As far as pure pre-releases on the tyrolias. They gained my trust well enough going over refrozen tracks and icy shit at speeds were losing a ski would have been bad. It's just kinda hard to trust a binding you haven't used ever. It's a process i guess.

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Originally Posted by JRainey

...but it i back slapped off a cliff or something i wouldn't want the same thing to happen. It might have been a good release though because my knee was a little sore afterwards.

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Quoted for essential dilemma: A toe that gives you more knee protection (dead easy to blow ACL's coming down backseat with ligs already taut) by releasing may be the same binding that sends you whirling into space off a cliff because it "prereleases" under same load. Meaning, it released when it was designed to, but you didn't want it to.

IMO, there is no solution. No binding that equally protects your legs and avoids prereleases. People who say their binding does both just haven't run into the fall - or cliff - that'll test that.

So no brainer solution: If your mission includes frequent no-release zones, pick a binding that obeys. Regardless of the possible cost to your anatomy. Blown ACl's are better than severed spines. Or funerals. OTOH, if your mission doesn't, pick a binding that releases when your knee needs it to, even if that's gonna create some yard sales.

QFT

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So no brainer solution: If your mission includes frequent no-release zones, pick a binding that obeys. Regardless of the possible cost to your anatomy. Blown ACl's are better than severed spines. Or funerals. OTOH, if your mission doesn't, pick a binding that releases when your knee needs it to, even if that's gonna create some yard sales.

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And to the comment about how blowing your ACL is for intermediates, I'd say if you don't know at least a couple "expert skiers" that have blown their knees you probably need to go skiing more. It happens all the time unfortunately, I'm just thankful I still have virgin knees.

I have a couple friends with horror stories involving broken fibula where vert toe release would have been quite handy to have.

As for reliability and gnarability. The release mechanism in each toe wing takes a full din rating to release, and upwards takes both, so double. So on my Head mojo 18x, if I have the din set at 11, it takes a force double that to release upwards.

Unlike the rest of you jongs, I clearly never ski in the backseat, so it doesn't matter, but I have not had any problems with pre-release of the toe in any direction. And in fact I like these bindings more than any I have ever owned (including FKS, because the damn brakes are so hard to get a hold of.)

And since I am clearly the gnarest one of them all, I am right, and you are suck.

:D


Forgot to mention. I was dropping into a 1000ft vert, 45ish degree chute last season, and turned out of the toe piece. Turns out my buddy had used them (told him he could) and hadn't set the forward pressure back. I didn't check, and I had to sidestep 30 feet back up to my ski (somehow didn't fall down), reset the forward pressure (I have it marked) then put it back on, make a turn, take the other ski off, do the same, and then continue. It was socked in, and my buddy thought I had died cuz he couldn't hear me. He had already gotten his beacon out and started "running" back up the couloir. He was pissed when I came skiing out of the fog.

I've released my toes on my jesters vertically a few times. I'm pretty sure it was my heel pushing back on the forward pressure spring and my boot pulling away from the toe piece, not a designed vertical toe release. I was trying to get a backflip around on a tiny jump and kept hitting my tips on the landing. Skis would come off, and then I would complete the flip to land on my feet, sans skis. I'm definitely glad they came off, because if they stayed on, it would have ended in a painful faceplant.

Just adding to the list of instances where you might want vertical toe release, designed that way, or not.

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Originally Posted by zartagen

...Just adding to the list of instances where you might want vertical toe release, designed that way, or not.

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*now adding "backflip-specific setup" to quiver this year*