Skiing on belay? (pros and cons)

I am interested in what the experienced ski mountaineers on this board can say on skiing short test pitches that have extreme exposure or extreme avalanche danger on belay: when it is a viable option and what the pros and cons are.

P.S. Although this question is clearly related to the recent tragedy in Peru, I want to say that I am in no way trying to doubt on the judgment of the team in that particular accident. We were not there, and I have nothing but total respect for the people involved, for their skills, and first and foremost for their loss.

Never skied on belay, but here's a good report of longs on belay.

[ame="http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124346"]TR: Longs Peak(14,255'), Notch Couloir 5.30.08 - Teton Gravity Research Forums[/ame]

Well, it has to be a short pitch because your rope is only so long. I'm not sure what you mean by short test pitch. If conditions are good in 100 feet here, what dose it tell you about what it might be like 2000 feet below? Many times the hardest part of any big snow face is down in the middle of the face.

The rope is anchored into snow which can be inconsistent, so is the anchor really all that strong? Skiing with a rope and no anchors is even more dangerous because if one person slips and falls they take everyone else on the rope with them. When climbing big pitches of snow (which is very similar to skiing down one as far as protecting it while climbing up it), most people put the rope in the pack and go solo. If they make a mistake they accept that risk because it only involves them and not the whole team.

There is no good and quick way to protect big steep snow pitches.

Ice screws are short and work in ice only and take two hands to set up (there are drive in screws but they are even weaker).

Snow anchors have to be placed right and take a long time to set up and don't work in brittle ice.

Pickets are good and can be driven in fast, placed with one hand, but again not all that strong in steep snow with good skiing conditions. In summer glacier ice/corn snow they can work well.

A snow bollard cut into hard snow is a good anchor but again takes a long time to build and would be difficult out in the middle of a big steep pitch while standing on skis swing an axe.

In good skiing snow conditions on moderate steepness cutting a trench and burying skis sideways is considered one of the safest belays, sticking the skis into the firm snow and using a sling around that is also good in the right conditions, but to do both you are no longer in your skis.

How easy is it to really set up out in the middle of a steep pitch of snow, and are you really able to test the anchor before using it? The chance of falling while you're setting up the belay is greater than staying in a balanced skiing position while skiing down unroped. And you would have to repeat building another anchor every 200 feet of vertical. The last guy belaying would have no belay unless you did half rope pitches and left the belay equipment at each station, again not an easy light pack to ski with on steep snow.

The biggest most dangerous problem with all of this is the amount of time it takes. On big steep snow pitches moving fast through the dangerous steep snow areas is considered safer than traveling at a snails pace and setting up belays every 200 feet. Letting a rope out fast enough and not pulling the skier off balance if the rope got stuck in the belay device is another concern. If you had more rope out to start with it would dangle down below where you want to make your first turns, and stopping a fall with a lot of rope out on snow is a big no, no. Pulling the rope out and putting it away again is yet another issue. Who is the lucky guy who gets to carry the long rope (heavy pack) while skiing the other pitches.

Most people don't use anchors except on very short transitions between snow/rock/snow, or to lower down some equipment like heavy touring packs, or to repel over a transition and the they try to use rock anchors which are predictable in strength. It could work well to get past a nasty but strong cornice where no other route in is available? Some places in the Alps are very heavily traveled and might already have an anchor set up, so then it would be quick and the slings might be new and safe, but that's rare here in America, and even rarer in South America.

When skiing steep snow in big vertical pitches you go it alone and make sure you don't make any mistakes because if you do then it's not good. That is where the term "extreme skiing" comes from. Another term used often is "a no fall zone".

Ropes are mainly used for glacier travel/skiing while going up through crevasses, even then many times they are not used for the skiing down part. They are also used for climbing up/crossing icy patches. Skiing down while roped is very difficult even in easy glacier terrain because of the spacing concerns of each person on the rope and slack rope problems when the spacing changes quickly.

To sum it all up... It just doesn't work well. We have learned this through the recording of mountaineering accidents that have already happened to people who tried it and tragically failed.

I have no advice about your first question, but I don't recommend listening to a word jwolter7 ^^^ says. He's spewed noting but shit in the 3 years he's been here. Ice screws take two hands to place???

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Originally Posted by jSki

I have no advice about your first question, but I don't recommend listening to a word jwolter7 ^^^ says. He's spewed noting but shit in the 3 years he's been here. Ice screws take two hands to place???

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Ok, you have your ice axe already in your hand, I see.

I'm talking about skiing and then stopping to use an ice screw, not about climbing waterfalls while standing in balance on crampons with one axe firmly planted in ice and with three points of contact and one hand totally free. Standing sideways while on skis in the middle of a big steep face is different.

The post above of Longs Peak is one of the better things I have ever seen on skiing while roped. There are many guys in the Tetons and on Rainier that can also do it well. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just saying most people don't use ropes while skiing steep big routes. That was my point.

I thought jwolter's post was great. Using ropes for skiing is a small distance solution that requires a lot of weight, work, knowledge, and time to be effective. When they are needed and used right, they can provide a margin of safety or even make an unskiable line skiable.

Ropes for skiing are for reducing consequence in situations of otherwise unacceptable risk:

1. Descending past short unskiable sections or otherwise unacceptable risk
2. Climbing past a crux or area of otherwise unacceptable risk
3. Digging an exposed pit that provides needed data otherwise unobtainable
4. When releasing an isolated surface instability in a manner that would otherwise present unacceptable risk (often referred to as a ski cut)

This is in no way meant to be a comment about the Peru tragedy which I know nothing about.

There is a passage somewhere in Anselme Baud's Mont Blanc guidebook where he talks about a belay technique he developed which sounds a bit like a "bucket" belay - one person sits on the slope with the tails of their skis well buried and belays the skier.

Clearly only suitable for certain situations (eg getting a nervous skier through their first few turns) but must be pretty quick to set up in comparison to ice screws and so on

And no, I haven't tried it

I've made some turns on belay in the past. Usually the first pitch of a route, to check out snow conditions, or sometimes just to get one's head around the exposure going from a couple hours of up to sustained no fall 45-50 degree slopes.

I believe that a lot of people are over thinking the "belay part of this." The objective isn't like a rock climbing belay where you're attempting to keep someone from falling more than 5 or possibly 10 feet with rope stretch. The objective of a skiing belay is to keep someone from falling 30 or 40 feet... or 1,000... to avoid a slide for life that never stops.

With this in mind, you can easily tie together and stack two 60m cords to get the length you need. Again... we're not talking about a vertical belay that needs to take the full falling weight of a person shock loading the system so you're using dental floss to belay rather than tram cable sized ropes. Anchor? Find some rock, throw in a cam and two nuts equalize and you're on your way. Snowfield? skis stuck straight in past the bindings, and poles buried perpendicular to the slope a couple feet down, or upside down to the hilt can be equalized to a surprisingly robust anchor - quick setup, and secure.

In most cases a hip belay, carabiner belay, or monstrous figure 8 that will pass knots will do the job. You also don't need to keep someone close on (as you would the scared first timer on a top rope setup). The belayer is more likely throwing out handfuls of rope at a pace to keep up with the descending individual. There is guaranteed to be slack in the system.

Anyway, hope this helps.

how i am supposed to jerk off when on belay?

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Originally Posted by jSki

I have no advice about your first question, but I don't recommend listening to a word jwolter7 ^^^ says. He's spewed noting but shit in the 3 years he's been here. Ice screws take two hands to place???

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You beat me to it! WTF you talk'n about? Most of his other stuff was good.

Me thinks Summit and others had it dialed in. However, . . .

I would recommend you take anything you read here with a grain of salt and filter it with your own knowledge and those more experienced folks in your circle. Better yet, I strongly recommend you take a lesson with a certified AMGA guide for instruction (I'm not one). Accidents happen in the mountains even to the most prepared and experienced. Good luck. Have fun. Be safe.

Did I sound like your Mom?

I'll just add that once in my ten traverses in Br. Columbia the issue came up as we had to leave a steep saddle (concerned about avy, and the pitch was short). We took the time to bury skis as a bomber anchor and the first person (we have heavy packs here) skied the pitch on belay. It was fine. But the point is that the technique does have its place in short sections. For most of the steep couloir/face type skiing discussed on this board, though, I would imagine the situation is quite different.

I've been belayed, belayed others and rappelled with skis on my feet, but I don't know if you'd call that "skiing on belay." I've also skinned on glaciers while roped -- anyone planning to do this should practice team arrest while wearing skis, which can be very difficult in some conditions. (The issue of team arrest while wearing skis deserves its own post.)

I have not done this: ". . . skiing short test pitches that have extreme exposure or extreme avalanche danger on belay. . . ." And I don't plan to.

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Originally Posted by Arno

There is a passage somewhere in Anselme Baud's Mont Blanc guidebook where he talks about a belay technique he developed which sounds a bit like a "bucket" belay - one person sits on the slope with the tails of their skis well buried and belays the skier.

Clearly only suitable for certain situations (eg getting a nervous skier through their first few turns) but must be pretty quick to set up in comparison to ice screws and so on

And no, I haven't tried it

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We've done it before on routes were the snow conditions in the gut of a chute were questionable. The ski anchor sets up well, but turned up tails on the skis can pose a bit of a problem. Photo below shows the set up, second photo what we were skiing. Ssssssh, super secret location near Taos.

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

I've been belayed, belayed others and rappelled with skis on my feet, but I don't know if you'd call that "skiing on belay." I've also skinned on glaciers while roped -- anyone planning to do this should practice team arrest while wearing skis, which can be very difficult in some conditions. (The issue of team arrest while wearing skis deserves its own post.)

I have not done this: ". . . skiing short test pitches that have extreme exposure or extreme avalanche danger on belay. . . ." And I don't plan to.

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This is what I was first thinking. Looks like the guys on Long Peaks did a good job of skiing something while roped up.

I've skied on glaciers roped up but nothing where the skiing was technical. I have been belayed & belayed down short icy steep sections using bucket belays as described by Arno above.

When it comes to survival turns, in some instances having a rope would be great. With regard to the OPs sub text though, roping up - even in the NFZ - is rare, what happened was an accident that sounds like a pre-release, sadly the outcome of such an incident can be fatal in all sorts of terrain.

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Originally Posted by Arno

There is a passage somewhere in Anselme Baud's Mont Blanc guidebook where he talks about a belay technique he developed which sounds a bit like a "bucket" belay - one person sits on the slope with the tails of their skis well buried and belays the skier.

Clearly only suitable for certain situations (eg getting a nervous skier through their first few turns) but must be pretty quick to set up in comparison to ice screws and so on

And no, I haven't tried it

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Backcountry Skiing: Skills for Ski Touring and Ski Mountaineering has a decent section on quick belays such as the one mentioned above. I have practiced setting up some of these belays, but never performed on a descent.

And I would imagine a decent diameter cord is sufficient if you are not bringing rope for vertical climbing, though it limits your belay device/technique options.

Jwolter makes an excellent point--if a belay is to be used the anchor has to be excellent. There is no benefit in turning a single fatality incident into a multiple fatality incident. When I used to climb ice the rule we followed was to unrope for any lengthy nontechnical section--if a competent ice climber falls and can't self arrest it's highly unlikely that a belayer on similar terrain will be able to hold him without an anchor. Simulclimbing (or descending) can work if intermediate protection can be arranged--quick slings over rock horns, or just feeding the rope around featuresplacing gear-as described in the Long's Peak TR, or --as described in every mountaineering text--jump off the opposite side of the ridge if your partner fall through a cornice (hopefully you know which way he fell.) Never had the opportunity to try the last one.

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Originally Posted by old goat

Never had the opportunity to try the last one.

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Probably not a bad thing. ;)

Good thread.

It totally depends on the situation. Sometimes just sitting down and wrapping the rope around your waist is enough and other times you need a bomber anchor. Most often, it is somewhere in between.

I do it on occasion where it's either fun to see how steep/dicey you can go without killing yourself if you fall, or if it is more expedient to ski a short section with a belay rather than rappelling it. If you are talking about thousands of feet of belayed skiing, you would be better off down-climbing as setting up anchors takes a long time.

For belaying, I like to use a hip belay as it feeds out rope much faster than a device or Munter Hitch. It is almost as dangerous as anything else to make it halfway through a turn and suddenly get gacked by the rope in mid turn. You need to be able feed rope out really quickly. The key to using a hip belay is to keep the slack out of the system (the above photo with the huge amount of slack in it looked dicey to me) as you can fairly easily catch a skiing fall.

If you anticipate doing a lot of it, it is better to tie off to the back of the harness.

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Originally Posted by GeoMatt

We've done it before on routes were the snow conditions in the gut of a chute were questionable. The ski anchor sets up well, but turned up tails on the skis can pose a bit of a problem. Photo below shows the set up, second photo what we were skiing. Ssssssh, super secret location near Taos.

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that's not what i was describing (my bad description of course). you sit on the slope with your skis on and jam the tails into the slope

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Originally Posted by StraightChuter

It totally depends on the situation. Sometimes just sitting down and wrapping the rope around your waist is enough and other times you need a bomber anchor. Most often, it is somewhere in between.

I do it on occasion where it's either fun to see how steep/dicey you can go without killing yourself if you fall, or if it is more expedient to ski a short section with a belay rather than rappelling it. If you are talking about thousands of feet of belayed skiing, you would be better off down-climbing as setting up anchors takes a long time.

For belaying, I like to use a hip belay as it feeds out rope much faster than a device or Munter Hitch. It is almost as dangerous as anything else to make it halfway through a turn and suddenly get gacked by the rope in mid turn. You need to be able feed rope out really quickly. The key to using a hip belay is to keep the slack out of the system (the above photo with the huge amount of slack in it looked dicey to me) as you can fairly easily catch a skiing fall.

If you anticipate doing a lot of it, it is better to tie off to the back of the harness.

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Agree with the hip belay--a hip belay will easily hold a nonleader fall--like a skiing fall when belaying from above. (It will hold most rock climbing leader falls for that matter, although it can be hard to deal with the results if the climber can't get back on holds right away).

Thanks to everyone who replied! Lots of useful information and pointers.

Lots of good stuff here.

2nd the recco of volkens book as being the bible for snow anchors.

EARNEST

THINX

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Originally Posted by GeoMatt

We've done it before on routes were the snow conditions in the gut of a chute were questionable. The ski anchor sets up well, but turned up tails on the skis can pose a bit of a problem. Photo below shows the set up, second photo what we were skiing. Ssssssh, super secret location near Taos.

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I was just working my way through the thread and thinking about posting those pictures, though that situation was for avy danger rather than steepness.

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Originally Posted by StraightChuter

... (the above photo with the huge amount of slack in it looked dicey to me) ...

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Probably right but as I recall, the skier had traversed in from far skier's right and the belayer just wasn't picking up slack while the skier maneuvered into position.

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Originally Posted by StraightChuter

The key to using a hip belay is to keep the slack out of the system (the above photo with the huge amount of slack in it looked dicey to me) as you can fairly easily catch a skiing fall.

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There are dangers to too much slack or not enough. Either one can put the skier into a position just as hazardous as the risk they are trying to mitigate. The skier should always dictate to the belayer how much slack they are comfortable with in each situation, and it should be discussed prior to entering the slope.

In the above reference photo the skier cut across the slope, then back to the center to complete a hasty pit. Tying in in front was not ideal for skiing, but worked for the given situation. Also, although not completely obvious in the photo, the belay was run completely off of the crossed skis. If I remember correctly it was a 2" webbing sling from the skis, carabiner and atc directly to the webbing.

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Originally Posted by Arno

that's not what i was describing (my bad description of course). you sit on the slope with your skis on and jam the tails into the slope

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Got it. Never tried it. Sounds like high injury potential for the belayer if the skier takes a fall with alot of energy.

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Originally Posted by GeoMatt

Got it. Never tried it. Sounds like high injury potential for the belayer if the skier takes a fall with alot of energy.

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It is used as a "main courante" technique... you stick you tails into the snow and toss the rope downslope, skier clips on with a half hitch and self belays down the slope, the descending skier should be under tension. first skier down can place the rope a bit better. Used by guides to get their clients quickly over steep and exposed sections where they don't want to lose them (unless they've paid in advance, of course)

Its personal, there's a time and place for everything and everyone. Many famous ski mountaineers have skid on belay and it certainly makes sense if conditions or your abilities aren't up to par with the terrain. That said, if somebody skis your line without a belay they win the "clean" "style" contest of ethics.