Cameron Pass 10.17.04

Well, conditions weren't great, but for the first day of the season it wasn't bad. It was thin in spots, nicely covered in spots. I didn't hit anything skiing the peak, but the way down to the car below treeline was awful. :eek: Stumps, rocks, half-hidden logs everywhere. I walked halfway down. Definitely needs more coverage, but hey, it was skiing!! I had a great day and was happy. It was nice to get some skinning in too, it was a good workout. Then I came back to Ft. C and played 3 hours of Ultimate. What a day! :D

Checking out the South Diamond from the parking lot

http://elizabethrs.smugmug.com/photos/10014239-M.jpg

Lake Agnes and the Nokhu Crags from the top of the South Diamond. I hope to skin in to the lake and ski that saddle and whatever else is out there one of these upcoming weekends.

http://elizabethrs.smugmug.com/photos/10014250-M.jpg

Me skiing (or attempting to). Conditions were really punchy and I was looking less than graceful. I use the excuse that it was my first time out in 4 months. :p

http://elizabethrs.smugmug.com/photos/10014252-M.jpg

Jamie skiing down a little chute below the top of the Diamond. That was my first time ever skiing straight off the summit- every other time I've been there, avy conditions weren't the greatest and we went from somewhere along the ridge. It was cool. I guess that's an advantage of having not much snow. ;)

http://elizabethrs.smugmug.com/photos/10014258-M.jpg

iskibc, shera, funken, how was willow creek? We would have liked to join you guys but we were pressed for time as it was. Hopefully next time!

Someone sacrifice some skis or something, we need more snow!!

-Liz :cool:

CAW! .

Yeah ,the northern chapter signs in with a TR,Good work.

I'm still counting the days until my new boots get here.

Nice pics and report Liz. The CO crew were gettin' after it this weekend :cool: . Cameron is looking pretty decent right now. Definitely a lot more than I had expected. Those lower trees have a ton of deadfall, watch out! Even in mid-winter conditions it isn't a surprise to hook a ski on a fallen log. Willow Creek was great.

You Colorado folk are starting to make me feel ill, depressed, excited, and suicidal all at once.

Nice pics and TR.

There have been two fatal avalanche accidents on Diamond Peak in the last 10 years, during the early winter. Each accident was an exact copy of each other. Looking back at the accident photos, the fracture line ran from rock to rock outcropping, just like in the third posted photo.

If you think there's enough snow to ski, then there's enough to avalanche......

Let's be careful out there....

Halsted Morris
CAIC

right on, hacksaw.

no antistoke meant to you snowfire and crew. just want to see my maggots in one piece. cheers!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hacksaw

There have been two fatal avalanche accidents on Diamond Peak in the last 10 years, during the early winter. Each accident was an exact copy of each other. Looking back at the accident photos, the fracture line ran from rock to rock outcropping, just like in the third posted photo.

If you think there's enough snow to ski, then there's enough to avalanche......

Let's be careful out there....

Halsted Morris
CAIC

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Don't worry, we dug a pit and had all our equipment. We were fully aware of the possibilities, but you have to admit it's not like midwinter when you have a 3' snowpack. Our pit went down maybe 10 inches.

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Originally Posted by snowfire

........... it's not like midwinter when you have a 3' snowpack. Our pit went down maybe 10 inches.

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Its great that you dug a pit. But, digging a couple is even better.

Remember, thin, shallower snowpack is weaker snowpack.

Think of it this way, the effects of your weight penetrates all the way to the ground in a thin (2-3') snowpack, then it would in a deeper snowpack 4'+. And those rock outcropping, they are weak points in the snowpack, becasue they stick up through the snowpack. The snowpack around them is even weaker...

Halsted Morris
CAIC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hacksaw

Its great that you dug a pit. But, digging a couple is even better.

Remember, thin, shallower snowpack is weaker snowpack.

Think of it this way, the effects of your weight penetrates all the way to the ground in a thin (2-3') snowpack, then it would in a deeper snowpack 4'+. And those rock outcropping, they are weak points in the snowpack, becasue they stick up through the snowpack. The snowpack around them is even weaker...

Halsted Morris
CAIC

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True to that, I remember the pics you guys put up on your site of that fatal avalanche on La Plata last year, the crown of that slide was like 12" deep. Frightening.

Everyone please be safe.

I don't feel that I was being unsafe. There were 4 other groups out there that day, two of which I knew dug pits as well because we talked about it. Between our 3 pits, safe travel through avy zones and skiing one at a time, I think we were being as safe as possible, unless we hadn't skied the slope at all. (god, I feel like I'm talking about sex. abstinence vs. protection? but what's the fun in abstinence unless you really evaluate the danger as not worth the risk of just using protection?) Anyways, I probably come off like a bc jong because I don't usually post trip reports, but actually I've been skiing in the bc for 4 seasons now, and have had avy training, and while that's nothing compared to most of you, I don't in any way feel like my decision to ski was unsafe. Of course it can never be completely safe...blah, blah, blah. No worries, it'll be a good while before I venture out again. :cool: I guess it's really still mountain biking season.

by the way, when is CAIC going to start posting reports again? The only thing we couldn't really do to prepare was keep track of conditions because we hadn't been up there. Is there a certain date you start up or does there have to be a certain amount of snowfall?

edit: "Looking back at the accident photos, the fracture line ran from rock to rock outcropping, just like in the third posted photo."

so basically what you are saying is we should not have skied down the centre of the peak. eh? Or that we should not have skied it at all? I definitely value your opinion, as you have much more knowledge/experience than I do. If my decision to ski was really flawed, I should know about it so I can turn back next time.

:cool:

snowfire, it sounds like you guys/gals were not being wildy unreasonable or anything (although, yes, sure, you can always have dug more pits, taken a safer line, etc, etc, but you were obviously thinking about the potential danger is what I'm saying) - so don't take Hacksaw's comments as being necessarily ciritical of your decision. His role/job is to educate the public and continue to push awareness, preparation, safety, and sanity. He frequently uses people's reports as a reminder to all of us to continue to practice good behaviors while out in the backcountry. This is a good thing - we need a consistent voice such as his to keep the awareness level high. Keep in mind, lots of people read these boards, many who don't post, and aren't necessarily edumacated or aware of avie danger. So having a safety gut check in these threads is a good thing. But that may be all that it was. (Or he might have been compelled to comment because of something you said.)

Anyway, keep the trip reports coming, and get some! (and, yes, be safe too!) :)

Best,
Cletus

EDIT: for clarity

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snowfire

Don't worry, we dug a pit and had all our equipment. We were fully aware of the possibilities, but you have to admit it's not like midwinter when you have a 3' snowpack. Our pit went down maybe 10 inches.

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snowfire, I think it was this statement that set off an alarm here, certainly it did for me. It's certainly paradoxical to think that less snow means more dangerous slopes, but as Hacksaw demonstrated this is not always the case. With that being said, you guys did a good job thinking avalanche and skiing one at a time, so there's a couple of positives.

^^


Patiently awaiting the key thread response from the all-knowing Summit.

nice lookin pics, dammm I need to get up that way.

I'm already digging a pit in my backyard in Denver, just to be safe....

;)

Nice SF! Way to get out there and git it!

I'm goin' with Cletus on this one (damn...why can't he be wrong like he was about the distinct regional differences of the Empenada in the lower regions of South America). Halstead is just spreading his knowledge, not hatin'! And based on your photos and report, me thinks I'll leave my touring stuff at home unless something changes in the next few weeks.

Oh..and to whomever pointed out a 12" crown fatalilty above, we had a near fatality (barely located in time) with a 4" crown. Scary indeed!

edit 'cause I'm bored and Snowfire is kewl:

Risk is always relative to safety, alternatives and desire. Should you have skied down the gut? I don't think anyone can answer this question but you. Personally, I wouldn't take a ton of weight in other folks' pit summaries simply because you don't know how carefully they were done, the weight of the tester, exactly which aspect it was performed upon, and the other thousand variables that could fack up a synopsis. I would listen to them and take it into account but I wouldn't weight them in my own decision.

Also, in shallow snow like that with often variable early season conditions, a pit is great to certain extent. Like Halstead pointed out, rocks and other thermal features (including the relatively close proximity of the ground) play a greater roll than they would had they only extended into the bottom couple feet of a 6 or 8 foot snowpack. So the variable are more variable, I guess.

Having said all of this, it sounds like you made a safe and sound decision that should be respected. YOU were there and YOU saw the snowpack, the slope, the weather, the temperature, the aspect, the runout and every other component. YOU made the decision which was ultimately correct. I say score this one to Snowfire for gettin' sum and being safe about doing it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater

[b]why can't he be wrong like he was about the distinct regional differences of the Empenada in the lower regions of South America!

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Heh.

I'm curious to hear the answer to SF's question: Should she have not skied it at all, or just looked at different routes? I know it's not black and white, but if she dug, kept her eye on the aspect, wind, weather, and route, why not smoke it? What am I missing?

Interesting point about tracking the weather, too-- I don't know of any resources outside of CAIC that does this.

Just F.Y.I., I was looking to the south towards Cameron about an hour ago and it looked like it was getting hit. We've had rain on and off here. Hopefully the Snowies are gettin' some too. ;)

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Originally Posted by Cornholio

Heh.

I'm curious to hear the answer to SF's question: Should she have not skied it at all, or just looked at different routes? I know it's not black and white, but if she dug, kept her eye on the aspect, wind, weather, and route, why not smoke it? What am I missing?

Interesting point about tracking the weather, too-- I don't know of any resources outside of CAIC that does this.

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I'm curious as well. What I meant by the other comment was that 10 or so inches of cohesive snow, which was what we saw, is safer than a 4' snowpack that could possibly have, say, a couple inches of surface hoar on top of a hard 1.5 ft slab on top of a thin layer of depth hoar that slides when cutting a Reutschblock with a snow saw. When I wrote that I had a picture in my mind of two years ago at the pass when I was skiing with some guys from DP ski patrol and we had this exact scenario. That was the biggest slab I had ever seen in a snowpit and it scared the crap out of all of us. Needless to say, we didn't ski that day. I still have the picture we took of the slab hanging up in my kitchen. I'd post it but I didn't have digital at the time and am too lazy to find a scanner.

I trusted the other group's analysis of their pit because they were diamond peaks patrollers, and if they don't know how to correctly read a snowpit there's something wrong. Those guys are the ones who taught me about snowpits in their avy classes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snowfire

iskibc, shera, funken, how was willow creek? We would have liked to join you guys but we were pressed for time as it was. Hopefully next time!

Someone sacrifice some skis or something, we need more snow!!

-Liz :cool:

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Hey girlie - nice pics and report. Thanks. I still haven't skied up there. Just the one day I did my OEC...

Willow Creek was tres cool. Great day. Rock hopping like at Crested Butte...

Um, does anybody want to ski Berthoud at dawn this week? That snow you ordered up is on the way. :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snowfire

by the way, when is CAIC going to start posting reports again? The only thing we couldn't really do to prepare was keep track of conditions because we hadn't been up there. Is there a certain date you start up or does there have to be a certain amount of snowfall?

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The date for the start of public forecasts will most likely be set on Friday.

No, there is not a "certain amount of snowfall" required for the CAIC to start work. Trying to strech the CAIC budget is more of what is involved, along with getting weather and snowpack data for our observers.

[QUOTE =snowfire]edit: "Looking back at the accident photos, the fracture line ran from rock to rock outcropping, just like in the third posted photo."

so basically what you are saying is we should not have skied down the centre of the peak. eh? Or that we should not have skied it at all? I definitely value your opinion, as you have much more knowledge/experience than I do. If my decision to ski was really flawed, I should know about it so I can turn back next time.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to have offended you with my comments about your ski line on Diamond Peak. Yes, you may have found "safe" snow during your tour. I've also been there to do accident investigations of fatal accidents on the same exact line you skied. I never trust an early season thin snowpack. Just too many bad experiences, close calls and good science behind my mistrust of lines like yours.

My opion?

NO, I do not recommend skiing the center of Diamond Peak in the early winter. The day you skied it as it turned out was "doable." If it doesn't snow much in the next week, you'll see a MAJOR significate change to the snowpack that will make skiing the center of Diamond Peak a hell of a lot more risky.

It seems that every season we see a lot more people out pushing the limits, in the early season (human factors = "powder jones" aka: early season powder lust).

BTW, today at the CAIC, we received news of a close call avalanche accident with a sizeable avalanche near Leadville. So, what does that mean?

It means that the next time someone says to you, "don't worry, there's not enough snow to avalanche," slap them upside the head. If you really think there's enough snow to ski a slope, there's enough snow for avalanches as a general rule.

Once there's snow on the ground, "THINK AVALANCHE."

Any way, I'm sorry if my post offend you and the rest of the TGR community. My posts where intended to promote avalanche awareness and safety for the folks on this board.

Halsted Morris
CAIC

I don't think any offense was taken Hacksaw, your thoughts are always good. I think people just wanted more of the reasoning behind your comments in this case, which you just provided! Thumbs up.

Hacksaw, I don't think anyone took offense to your comments. In fact, I'm sure others besides me were anxious to hear your response. It's no secret that your opinion on this stuff is pretty highly valued around here. Anyone that skis BC and isn't interested in learning more should have his head examined, anyway.

So, thanks for the input and advice, and especially your experience. Basically, thanks for trying to keep us all alive!

eidt: Cletus is much more succinct than I. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hacksaw

It seems that every season we see a lot more people out pushing the limits, in the early season (human factors = "powder jones" aka: early season powder lust).

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Yeah, that lust isn't going away either. But the snow seemed ok until these last days of windloading. I was just talking to Summit last night about how it's starting to feel weird out there. I hadn't yet seen any signs of natural slides, just the one short thing at Jones where a cornice chunk took out the snow down to the ground. That was rider triggered on the day after it snowed I think.

The rock face we skied on Parkview was completely uncohesive, but it also had no slabbing - it would just sluff right off. Is that why people can ski it in the winter? It's a northeast aspect, iirc. I could imagine a slide starting up higher where there's wind and getting it moving though.

So about a lee slope, like at Jones. Two feet of granular sugar under a two inch soft slab on a southeast aspect. Then this new snow is coming. The weight of it, plus a little push from a skier can make it collapse, right? So how is that cat op going to handle things?

I'm thinking of sticking to trees for a bit. And yes Halsted, you've told me fity times at least, that I have to be just as careful there. :) :D I will. If they're spaced enough to ski, they are spaced enough to slide. I'll be looking for a nice pack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hacksaw

BTW, today at the CAIC, we received news of a close call avalanche accident with a sizeable avalanche near Leadville. So, what does that mean?

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Skier triggered? can you tell us some more?

Halsed, you know we are all truly grateful that you are willing to teach and contribute. Your experience is invaluable. And I feel super lucky that I can call you a friend. So fun to go out with you and listen to stories all day.

And we know there are some days when it's just better to stay inbounds. Like when the avy rose went all red two years ago and that poor fellow died out past the beavers from the femur. But most days we want to find something safe to ski. And however you can help with that is what I am especialy grateful for.

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Originally Posted by SheRa

Skier triggered? can you tell us some more?

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Sorry, can't supply a lot of extra details. Spent the entire day in the NAC forecasters meeting. Just got home, and got to be at CSAW early. :eek:

On Mount Sheridan 13,748'. I believe it was on a North aspect.

Any way, snowboarder triggered avalanche, 25 yards wide, 600-700' vertical, 18-24" fracture (awating photos). Sorry, no exact slope angle. Knife hardness windslab on an "older" snow layer. Don't know if it was old summer snow or not.

Snowboarder was coming down the slope that goes into curving gulley. He didn't like the feel of the snow (had postholed through loose snow on ascent, before finding a "firm" snow surface, ie windslab snow to walk and ride on). So, he stopped and was going to dig a pit. Jumped up and down on the board and triggered the slope in front of him.

Please remember folks, all you need for an avalanche are the following ingredents:

1) a steep enough slope of +30 degrees.
2) enough snow to cover the ground surface ruffness, to have a bed surface (ie a sliding layer).
3) a cohessive slab of snow.
4) sitting on top of a weak layer of snow.

These guys had all four ingredents..... :eek:

So, the "avalanche season" is offically on.... And yes Mir, I may say it to offen, but let's be careful out there. ;)

Halsted Morris
CAIC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hacksaw

The date for the start of public forecasts will most likely be set on Friday. ... etc.

Halsted Morris
CAIC

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YAY!!! :D I've been checking the site for weeks now and I'm definitely excited to see the reports start coming in again.

No, you didn't offend me, I just like to question a lot- I don't usually take things at face value. I don't mean to disrespect your knowledge, I just want to know details. I'm nosy like that. You definitely provided them and I appreciate that. It's always a learning experience to hear from a guru in any field. Thanks for explaining!

And I will not be going into the backcountry for a good long time until conditions improve. :cool: I don't want to tempt the avalanche gods, and I don't want to wreck my skis. I guess I just got a little anxious to make some turns and I hate icy gaper-laden groomers. I'll settle for turns on my mountain bike for now.

edit: I also appreciate your opinion on whether I should have skied or not. If you wouldn't have done it, than I definitely wouldn't either. Knowing that now, I'll keep it in mind for the future.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hacksaw

Sorry, can't supply a lot of extra details. Spent the entire day in the NAC forecasters meeting. Just got home, and got to be at CSAW early. :eek:

On Mount Sheridan 13,748'. I believe it was on a North aspect.

Snowboarder was coming down the slope that goes into curving gulley.

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I'll be very interested to see those photos. I was up there less than 2 weeks ago. Did an ascent of Sherman and Sheridan from the Fairplay side. Our hike routes were totally safe, but we did note that N face of Sheridan, and a particularly tempting looking gully that had good looking coverage (which also did look dangerous...isn't that usually the case?). Wonder if that's where the slide happened.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hacksaw

Please remember folks, all you need for an avalanche are the following ingredents:

1) a steep enough slope of +30 degrees.
2) enough snow to cover the ground surface ruffness, to have a bed surface (ie a sliding layer).
3) a cohessive slab of snow.
4) sitting on top of a weak layer of snow.

These guys had all four ingredents..... :eek:

So, the "avalanche season" is offically on.... And yes Mir, I may say it to offen, but let's be careful out there. ;)

Halsted Morris
CAIC

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Well, if you insist. ;)

Is there anything I need to know about Butler Gulch? Planning to head over there Sunday morning. Can you come too?

Awesome details, Halsted. Thank you so much for taking the time.

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Originally Posted by SheRa

Is there anything I need to know about Butler Gulch?

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Watch for uphill traffic when hauling ass down the trail to the trailhead. Ouch.

Here is a pic of the diamond sliding this year