I gotta go with the back deck.
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I gotta go with the back deck.
Stay out of the shallows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blurred
c-to-c for you in "the shallows"? :)
sweepish...
c-c is the goto backup, just slower.
sweep/scull. After bashing my face and breaking my helmet on Cascade Creek, no more back decks unless I'm playboating.
I only voluntarily back deck roll if I'm in my playboat at a feature. I can't back deck my Kingpin worth a shit in flatwater.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blurred
I don't roll very much these days. When I do, I feel what the current tells me to do by pulling on my paddle and roll up however the flow dictates.
You're so core. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
Graceful sweep.
I'd say mainly the sweep and what Root said minus the not rolling very much.
Blurred, you'll soon learn to not favor that roll and probably the hard way. It's definitely handy to have in the bag though.
I would like to roll like Rootskier, but I still rely mostly on the sweep roll. I have a decent back deck roll in the pool, but don't use it on the river.
Yes, if I had any confidence in my roll anymore I'd probably be able to answer this question better. :rolleyes2 But seriously, I've hit the 'been boating for ten years and am scared to be upside down' portion of my kayaking career. I need a new playboat to renew my interest in the pretty sweet playspot 1/2 mile from my house.Quote:
Originally Posted by BakerBoy
The one roll in my creekboat last year...I was thinking, "oh holy fuck I better hit this fucking thing" and cranked it so hard I fucked my neck up bad. But I styled the bottom of the rapid.
:yourock:
This made me lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
So what do you guys think is the safest roll in a shallow, manky creek?
whatever gets you upright fastest.
In other words...try your hardest to roll from wherever you are at without setting up. Lots of playboating is the best way to get this dialed.
edit: also, get a full face helmet and some burly motocross elbow pads.
I have limited experience in most kayaking, but I tend to be in shallow manky things fairly often when I tip over, and I much prefer a sweep or c to c over a backdeck of any kind. When I first started I would naturally fall back as I rolled over and after slamming my face into a few rocks from it not being protected I decided to learn to lean forward as I first get tossed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blurred
I'[m kinda playing devils advocate here, but back deck is the fastest roll. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
Good point, but most people forget when setting up for a back deck, as long as you're somewhat facing downriver when you flip, your hands are in front of your face.Quote:
Originally Posted by brice618
only if you are splayed out on your back deck when you flip. and if you are, you done fucked up already and it's no wonder you are upside down. lean forward, damn it.
sweep goes from front to back though, no? ;)
Yeah but if done correctly by the time you are back you are basically out of the water.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blurred
Just because we have only named 3 kinds of rolls in this thread doesn't mean there aren't really an infinite number of real world rolls. Just get upright. Fast. That's all that matters.
But brice is right. And I'm going to bed.
Sweep is my most common roll, but I try to come up from whatever position I find myself in which often is a hybrid of several rolls.
I used to use the backdeck heavily when play boating but I started using it too much. After hearing some stories about shallow backdeck attempts and whatnot I have been making an effort to forget the motion.
Tom Wolfe had it right...it's the Pimp Roll
The fastest is the no setup roll. Use whatever paddle purchase you can get hip snap against. Watch a good paddler in a play hole, rolling is just paddling upside down. This mean having a bomber on and offside and not favoring either side. What not to do = (assuming your on side = right hand forward) if you flip to your right, spinning your paddle and boy all the way around to on side roll. Instead, use the momentum of your flip, throw your body under the boat and roll off side. The back deck roll does have it's place, generally if you go over vert playing or unintendo rodeo, but I don't think it is the right "go to" roll under most situations. I think most better paddlers use a modified sweep where when the paddle blade gets perpecdicular with the boat, then either reverse the stoke and scull up or pull down on the paddle into a C - C. This put you in a better position to start paddling than finishing on the back deck.
The best roll is the one that gets you upright and breathing on the first try. Which technique to use totally depends on the context. If I'm upside down on the NF Payette there is no way I am going to untuck to do a back deck roll even if my setup takes a little longer. Conversely, if I am surfing then I usually do some kind of untucked back deck hybrid roll because it is faster and I am more likely to stay in the feature with a quick roll.
Spending some quality time in your playboat at a good hole will train you to roll quickly from any number of discombobulated positions.
When practicing your roll never setup before you flip. Hold your hands over your head or take one hand off the paddle - something to simulate that moment of panic when you get flipped in the real shit.
I would agree with most of this, in particular using the momentum of the flip and going to the off side, particularly when rolling on a river run (creeking, rather than playboating). When you get knocked over on a river run, usually it is because you are bracing against the current and your paddle gets pulled under the boat. The mistake most people make in that situation is to try and set up on the side they tipped over on and try and roll repeatedly against the current (difficult to impossible if in a wave train).Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
I always try to start with a sweep and end with a reverse/skulling stroke which is effectively like starting with a sweep roll that then finishes with an abreviated backdeck. This is often the only roll that will work if you are on a swirling eddy line where the current is reversing direction on you.
When playing in a hole, a backdeck is usuallymy roll of choice, since the current is typically flowing from the front to back of the boat and sweep rolls are hopeless. Even if I start with a backdeck I usually reverse the stroke at the end and go into a skull/sweep as well.
That's the roll I want. I've been working to make myself skip the mistaken security of immediately going to a setup and instead just putting my paddle out and doing a hip snap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
I'm kind of with blured here. i don't think the backdeck really deserves the bad rap I think it has in creeking. I was actually surprised last summer when I rode out this slide this slide (... not me in the footage) on my back deck. With my elbow pads, and my hands in front of me the shaft of my paddle actually deflected the worst of the big hits I took away from my face. I came out still looking beautiful.
I am going to agree with Blurred. For me the back deck is superior in all but in the middle of a slide on Oh Be Joyful or something. If I know I am flipping over I just start the back deck momentum and I can spend very little time under the boat. I even used it last year racing in a 14' composite wildwater boat when I flipped in the hardest rapid in the race, but I was able to roll up only missing about 2 strokes and keep the boat going downstream...
all that being said it takes a shit ton of playboating to get really comfortable with back deck roll.
My votes for a bomber brace before I have to drag my head over the rocks.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Blurred
or
I did once push off the bottom with my paddle- in about 2 feet of water-on the Lochsa-and yes I was very embarrassed.
Carry momentum in your body and your boat. All you're doing is pulling your boat back under your body. Playboating/squirtboating teach you to think cubically (3D) so you keep rotational momentum in your boat so you stay in the hole, on the wave, or on flatwater/seams/eddies to keep you moving into the next move, even if it's just paddling forward again downstream.
Your body snap and paddle sweep or pull tend to move towards and across or reflecting off a line vertical from your cockpit.
I personally pass or reflect so I end up in a forward position; more stable and with an active forward stroke ready, rather than needing that extra time to get your body forward once you're on the surface. A weighted back-deck will send you right back into the pit.
Righting your boat is just another stroke and body movement, continuous with your others.
Blurred: Listen to Harv. He's The Man on the river.