Distance runners what do you think?

About CrossFit Endurance?
I like the crossfit stuff but not sure about this training method.

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Carl - "The 4x5k is set up for athletes who are going to run a marathon or ultra, other than that there really is no reason to be doing that many repeats of said distance.Yes, the 5ks are a lot of work but they will take less time to recover from than a long, slow 20mile slog that most are accustom to doing. Shorter, faster intervals will increase your aerobic capsity, build speed and not have the oxidative effect of loosing muscle mass that is so common with the long runs. #13. depending on when your ultra is, running a 13.1 mile TT/tempo or a 10 mile TT/tempo run will every few weeks is acceptable. Make them fast and your ultra will seem like a walk in the park, Figurativly"

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Interesting concept to develop speed and endurance. But the idea of the long run to to get the body use to extended pain. I'm not sure how shorter periods of pain can translate for the long haul. Can running a 13 mile TT/tempo run really get the body ready for twice or more the distance?

I might try this method out this summer and let you know. There is growing thought in the back on my mind to running a fall marathon. I really hate the LSD's. Ask me in August how it's going.

Do you do the CrossFit stuff anyway?

We have a guy at our Crossfit gym that does only our WOD's and strictly adhere's to the Crossfit Endurance regimen. He is currently training for a 50 miler and says he has never felt better. We'll see what the results are. He actually has a blog where he talks about it...see what you think.

http://www.n-equals-1.blogspot.com/

...the 5ks are a lot of work but they will take less time to recover from than a long, slow 20mile slog that most are accustom to doing.

Depends on what you're trained for. When I got back into speed work after a several year hiatus, that shit kicked my ass. More so than any 20, 30 or 40 mile training run.

Shorter, faster intervals will increase your aerobic capsity, build speed

Sure. But does it need to be 5K intervals? what's wrong with the shorter, standard interval training?

and not have the oxidative effect of loosing muscle mass that is so common with the long runs.

This is news to me!

depending on when your ultra is, running a 13.1 mile TT/tempo or a 10 mile TT/tempo run will every few weeks is acceptable. Make them fast and your ultra will seem like a walk in the park, Figurativly"

I guess that I agree with this in principle as I did something similar. I just never structured my runs. On my shorter runs (5-15 miles), I would, basically, run harder if I felt good or run slower when I felt crappy.

I really enjoy my long runs and know that my training works. But this would cut down on the time I spend training which almost seems like a shortcut and well shortcuts often do not work.

does crossfit endurance have any athlete's with enduro results that can back this program up?

My personal experience using shorter tempo runs 10-13mi as a replacement for the longer slow ones led to my worst marathon bonk ever.

But adding 5-8K tempo after 15-20 mile runs led to my best time.

Wouldn't running short, fast 3ks increase your anaerobic fitness?

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Originally Posted by boredboiseboy

Wouldn't running short, fast 3ks increase your anaerobic fitness?

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Running 100 meters all-out certainly would.

Yeah, anything over two minutes duration will be largely aerobic.

Personally, I think if something like this was the best training method then the top guys wouldn't be churning out 100+ miles per week all the time.

one of the most painful workouts I did in college was 10 X 1mile @ 5:50 and every subsequent mile was 10 seconds faster, so our 9th mile was 4:30. For our last mile we cranked out a 4:18. I almost puked and was hurting for days after that.

I think people need to find what works best for them. I was averaging close to 100 miles per week start of the season, around 70-80 mid season, and about 60ish at the end of the season. Summer time was over 100 per week. Mileage like that destroyed me, and I hated it. I felt fine doing 70-80, but getting over that was just too much stress on my body.

For Marathon training and ultra distance I dont think doing your typical 800, 1000, and 1500s would be as beneficial as doing 5K - 8K workouts. Leg turnover rate doesnt have to be as fast as it does for shorter distances so Id imagine focusing on longer tempo runs, and longer interval training would be more beneficial... especially so you dont bonk between 18-20 miles. But, dont ask me, I've only actually raced a half marathon... in 1:12 :fm:

I see the program as one of the latest "quick fixes" that appeals to the rationale of the those unknowledgeable about exercise physiology.
Sometimes I almost get suckered in because their thoughts have just enough merit to not get written off as complete crap.

The crossfit endurance will take the non-athlete or those not interested in "traditional" endurance training methods and give them the ability to complete endurance events and improve their aerobic fitness.
The crossfit endurance workout will increase the abilities of those who are trying to train traditionally, but doing a poor job of it.
The crossfit endurance workout, however, neglects certain important aspects of endurance training and cannot compete with even moderately-well designed endurance training plans.

I have been under the impression that LSD helped the body learn to burn fat as fuel instead of muscle or depleting carb stores. Is that right?

http://vimeo.com/4199666

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Originally Posted by Tuckerman

http://vimeo.com/4199666

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I didn't hear him say anything.
Many people can make claims about a product... about their company (he's a salesman, remember)... but never actually say anything substantial?


Training at lower intensities for longer durations does, among other things, helps the body become more efficient at using fats as a fuel source.

anything crossfit is generally a crock of shit. this is a nice way to improve your times without too much effort but look to something more substantial and proven for better results.

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Originally Posted by flyby

anything crossfit is generally a crock of shit.

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This is pretty funny. I just found this thread by accident and I am certainly no endurance expert but here is my question to the doubters: have you tried it?

There seems to be a growing number of people at crossfit and crossfitendurance.com who seem to feel that CFE works great for their goals. CF and CFE have always maintained that the pinnacle of athleticism is sport and the best way to get good at your sport(s) is with good General Physical Preparedness (GPP) combined with plenty of sport specific skill work.

So, in other words, if your goals are consistent with Crossfit, which includes increasing work capacity across wide modal and time domains then the combo of CF and CFE might be just what you are looking for.

If your only goal is to run the absolute fastest marathon or ultra possible, you are DEFINITELY going to sacrifice all areas of fitness besides pure long haul aerobic capacity. I mean look at Ryan Hall, dude runs like a motherfucker but he is amazingly weak and has zero upper body mass. Which is fine or maybe even necessary for his goals.

I would think most of us that ski, bike, kayak, climb, etc, would NOT be willing to trade GPP and strength for the pure aerobic capacity necessary to be the best runner in the world.

But hey, if you have a lengthy endurance background of course you are going to hate on Crossfit because that shit is HARD WORK. ;)

Yeah but I don't consider Ryan Hall anymore of an endurance athlete than Opera or Ditty. Come on a marathon?

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Originally Posted by Tuckerman

Yeah but I don't consider Ryan Hall anymore of an endurance athlete than Opera

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Opera? Is this what they mean when they talk about the fat lady singing?

What ever her name is Oprah I guess.

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Originally Posted by Tuckerman

What ever her name is Oprah I guess.

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Come on, man, Opera instead of Oprah is some funny shit!

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Originally Posted by RootSkier

If your only goal is to run the absolute fastest marathon or ultra possible, you are DEFINITELY going to sacrifice all areas of fitness besides pure long haul aerobic capacity.

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Stop making stuff up.

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Originally Posted by RootSkier

This is pretty funny. I just found this thread by accident and I am certainly no endurance expert but here is my question to the doubters: have you tried it?

There seems to be a growing number of people at crossfit and crossfitendurance.com who seem to feel that CFE works great for their goals. CF and CFE have always maintained that the pinnacle of athleticism is sport and the best way to get good at your sport(s) is with good General Physical Preparedness (GPP) combined with plenty of sport specific skill work.

So, in other words, if your goals are consistent with Crossfit, which includes increasing work capacity across wide modal and time domains then the combo of CF and CFE might be just what you are looking for.

If your only goal is to run the absolute fastest marathon or ultra possible, you are DEFINITELY going to sacrifice all areas of fitness besides pure long haul aerobic capacity. I mean look at Ryan Hall, dude runs like a motherfucker but he is amazingly weak and has zero upper body mass. Which is fine or maybe even necessary for his goals.

I would think most of us that ski, bike, kayak, climb, etc, would NOT be willing to trade GPP and strength for the pure aerobic capacity necessary to be the best runner in the world.

But hey, if you have a lengthy endurance background of course you are going to hate on Crossfit because that shit is HARD WORK. ;)

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What you are saying isn't exactly correct, but I see where you are trying to go. I agree with you that CF addresses general preparedness aspect. I'm sure that it is perfect for some and their goals. However, if you want to reach your athletic potential in a specific sport (ANY SPORT), you will not find it with crossfit.

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Originally Posted by Viva

Stop making stuff up.

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I am curious about what part of that isn't true. Just like a powerlifter will necessarily sacrifice aerobic potential so will the ultramarathoner necessarily sacrifice strength and power.

That's not to say there aren't ultra runners that can deadlift three times their bodyweight and powerlifters that can run marathons. But find me someone who will be competitive at high levels in both disciplines...not gonna happen.

It's not a knock on anyone or their goals. It's just how it works.

And Xtrpickels...yeah, of COURSE Crossfit isn't going to prepare someone for the pinnacle of their specific sport. They make that point pretty clear from the get go.

We really need to keep marathons out of the distance thread. Anyway I asked Dirt Diva who is a well know Ultra runner and CrossFitter.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pV6qiByixb...s50k%2B085.jpg


http://bp2.blogger.com/_pV6qiByixbo/...july08+101.jpg


if she was following CFE and she kind of said what I said above she likes long runs in the mtns. She is also friends with that CFE dood.

Case Study # 2
Without having to ask Nikki Kimball, I can tell you she does not prescribe to crossfit.

Catra is such a...meh, nevermind.

Spill it...

Let's just say that the "Diva" part of her nom de guerre is most apropos.

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Originally Posted by Viva

Catra is such a...meh, nevermind.

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yeah, i can't read her blog. the layout, it pains me. also, i am just not that interested in 10,000 photos of her, all in the same pose. if she had more content, maybe.

you know who you ultrarunner guys should fawn over? who is pretty cute and speedy? Keira Henninger. a little more... preppy looking than Ms. Dirt Diva.

tonight is my first crossfit class.... aye!

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Originally Posted by BeanDip4All

you know who you ultrarunner guys should fawn over? who is pretty cute and speedy? Keira Henninger.

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Just did an image search. One question: real or fake?

So now your going to make the rest of us search? thanks

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Originally Posted by Tuckerman

So now your going to make the rest of us search? thanks

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OK, here you go!
http://www.therundown.net/the_run_do...ira_rocked.jpg

But can she do a pullup? ;)

Kira's way better looking than that.

There are better examples as well...

You should have seen Catra 10 years ago when she had all those facial piercings- Lord have mercy!

Fellow Rat, Anne Langstaff had a nice set of fake titties. She was a topless dancer while going through school- a bunch of us went to check her out one night. She also won Vermont.

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Originally Posted by RootSkier

But can she do a pullup? ;)

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hey root, you ever interested in running an ultra?

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Originally Posted by BeanDip4All

you know who you ultrarunner guys should fawn over? who is pretty cute and speedy? Keira Henninger. a little more... preppy looking than Ms. Dirt Diva.

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Random, but attractive and impressive lady from CFE: http://www.crossfitendurance.com/blo...&month=2009-03 (The picture blows up too, should you decide to click on it.)

I bet she could do a pull-up, Root. :)

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Originally Posted by BeanDip4All

hey root, you ever interested in running an ultra?

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Some interest but whenever I run, after about a mile I'm like, "fuck this shit" so I guess the proper answer is no.