Don't sled in BC!

Has this ever been more evident.

I am no sled hater, in fact have become ever more loving of them over the last couple seasons as a means to deep snow skiing, but BC has now lost 22 sledders to avalanches this season. Is that ridiculous? Yes. Standing on top of a mountain with a lightning rod greatly increases your chances of been blown to hell.

I try to keep my thoughts on these folks, they are people and deserve respect in death, especially their families, but I guess I am just speechless, trying to figure out what to say about 22 dead in one season up there. Keep your machine off slabs I guess, pretty obvious for me to see that even skiing on these huge open loaded slopes entails some risk and I better know well whats been going on here, now you are putting 500lbs on a recently loaded slope.

Oh well, better stop before I get in trouble. Enjoy the skiing, down here we're now just above average, MARCH RULED!

reprinted without permission:

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Revelstoke, BC, March 27, 2009: The Canadian Avalanche Centre (CAC) is calling on the
snowmobiling community to help prevent further tragedies.

“More snowmobilers have died in avalanches in Canada this year than ever before,” says
CAC Executive Director Ian Tomm. “The snowpack is fundamentally weak throughout much of
western Canada this winter so it’s especially vital that all backcountry users leave an extra
margin of safety in their activities. We strive to provide the best possible information and advice,
but we are very concerned that some snowmobilers are not getting this message.”

This winter, 23 people in Canada have died in avalanches – 17 of these were
snowmobilers. New technology and more powerful snowmobile equipment means even
inexperienced riders are now able to access more extreme terrain, increasing their risk of
triggering an avalanche.

“Many of these incidents occurred in terrain that clearly wasn’t appropriate for the
conditions of the day,” said Jeff Dolan, Executive Director of Regional Operations for the BC
Coroners Service. “It’s critical for snowmobilers and all backcountry users to take appropriate
training, consult the avalanche forecasts, and heed the advice issued by the CAC.”
There are many resources available to help all backcountry users manage avalanche risk
including regular avalanche forecasts issued by the CAC, which always include snowpack
information and travel advice. Additionally, there are public avalanche education programs,
online courses and the Avaluator – a hand-held card that provides users with a checklist for
making sound decisions in avalanche terrain.

“We are also appealing to snowmobile manufacturers, distributors and retailers to do
their part by encouraging snowmobilers to use the avalanche safety tools and programs available
to them,” said Tomm.

For more information about avalanche safety and risks and to get the most recent bulletin
and weather forecast, go to www.avalanche.ca.

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None of this is surprising if you do much sledneck'n. I constantly see stupid shit any time I am near another party of 'bilers. If you really want entertainment post this same thread over on Snowest. i recently posted a link to some vids the avy forcasters on the Gallatin took of 4 or 5 sledders simul climbing (all on the slope at the same time), under my sledneckskier handle. I felt like a fucking troll the thread ended up getting so incredibly stupid so fast. I've come to the conclusion that most of my sledneck'n brethern are fucking retards beyond help.:nonono2:

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Originally Posted by hick

None of this is surprising if you do much sledneck'n. I constantly see stupid shit any time I am near another party of 'bilers. If you really want entertainment post this same thread over on Snowest. i recently posted a link to some vids the avy forcasters on the Gallatin took of 4 or 5 sledders simul climbing (all on the slope at the same time), under my sledneckskier handle. I felt like a fucking troll the thread ended up getting so incredibly stupid so fast. I've come to the conclusion that most of my sledneck'n brethern are fucking retards beyond help.:nonono2:

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The part that I find interesting, at least here in Utah, is that the UAC is supported by companies like backcountry.com and donations primarily from the skiing community. Yet this year we've had 4 avy deaths, three of them sledders and one in-bounds skier. You'd think the snowmobiling community would start taking advantage of and supporting the resources available to them.

it doesn't seem to me that a good portion of backcountry users-especially snowmobilers give respect to the mountain or the environment they are in. A lot of these meat heads carry distress beacons and ABS bags and think that these products are quantified substitutes for avalanche education and knowledge giving them the sense of being invincible. Darwinism at its greatest.

And another...

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/sto...avalanche.html

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Alberta man dies in B.C. avalanche
Last Updated: Saturday, April 11, 2009 | 12:36 PM MT Comments12Recommend12
CBC News

A 24-year-old Alberta man was killed after being caught in an avalanche near the B.C.-Alberta border Friday afternoon.

At about 3 p.m. PT, Valemount RCMP responded to a report of an avalanche in the Monashee Mountains, 25 kilometres south of Valemount, B.C., near the Clemina Creek snowmobiling area.

According to the RCMP, a number of snowmobilers were taking turns riding up a slope when one of them was buried by snow near the bottom of the hill.

The other snowmobilers dug the victim out and attempted to revive him, police said, but their efforts were unsuccessful.

The RCMP and the B.C. Coroner's Service are investigating. The name of the victim, from Sherwood Park, Alta., has not been released.

Friday's death brings the number of people killed in avalanches in Western Canada this winter to 25. All but one occurred in B.C. and most involved snowmobilers.

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Originally Posted by hick

I've come to the conclusion that most of my sledneck'n brethern are fucking retards beyond help.:nonono2:

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I went out sledding with a friend and some his friends a few months back. We had mostly been cruising road trails around the SW side of Mt Hood, and had gotten 6" or so in the last 36 hrs, and it was snowing.

While stopped for a break I did a hand cut to get a feel for the interface of the new layer. When asked what I was doing, I explained, and they all started making fun of me.

"It hardly ever avalanches around Mt Hood."

That mentality it seems is pretty rampant.

Sometimes I wonder. Clearly there's a major gap in the sledneckin community of avy education. Out a few days ago and there is a couple. Both on brand new his and her XPs. They have one pack. I.e. one shovel and one probe. The man would where it while they rode from spot to spot. Then they would stop, he would hand the pack to the woman and go do hill climbs while she watched.

The guy was an awesome sledder, so clearly he has been doing it for a while, but man of man smarten up.

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Originally Posted by Wasatch_Expat

The part that I find interesting, at least here in Utah, is that the UAC is supported by companies like backcountry.com and donations primarily from the skiing community. Yet this year we've had 4 avy deaths, three of them sledders and one in-bounds skier. You'd think the snowmobiling community would start taking advantage of and supporting the resources available to them.

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SnowMo dealerships here support the Avalanche Center. The slednecks aren't so great, though. Mostly it's the tourists around W. Yellowstone and Cook City. I'm sure the yearly report for the GNFAC will be out soon.

High marking might be the dumbest thing I can think of that you could do in the back country.

There have been times where I have looked across to the next ridge over only to see that every open, convex slope has been thoroughly traversed on 500lb machines.

It gets to a point where i have a hard time feeling bad for them. eventually its just dawinism.

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Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

SnowMo dealerships here support the Avalanche Center. The slednecks aren't so great, though. Mostly it's the tourists around W. Yellowstone and Cook City. I'm sure the yearly report for the GNFAC will be out soon.

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Many of the locals are just as clueless as the flatlanders. Didn't you see the youtube vid the Avy center posted? The 3-4 guys on the slope at one time, you guessed it, locals. You should see what those guys said in their defense of all being on the slope at the same time. Something along the lines of it's an extreme sport, it's meant to be dangerous and we were ok cause we have shovels, probes, and beacons. The best part was when these guys said everyone was giving them a hard time about being stupid when in fact everyone was jealous because they didn't have the balls to climb that hill. It was fucking classic! College age sled heads are the absolute best for stupidity and entertainment.

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Originally Posted by nick > jesus

High marking might be the dumbest thing I can think of that you could do in the back country.

There have been times where I have looked across to the next ridge over only to see that every open, convex slope has been thoroughly traversed on 500lb machines.

It gets to a point where i have a hard time feeling bad for them. eventually its just dawinism.

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Except when they're highmarking over my head or tracking up wilderness areas, I'm rather partial to them. Seeing their fresh tracks in starting zones tells me all kinds of things about the snowpack that I'd never attempt to learn on my own.

I'd be even more enamored with them if they decided to avail themselves of the modern advances (post-1930 or so) in muffler and catalytic converter (60's?) technology. Gliding silently through deep snow is so very nice. I wish 'bilers could experience it too.

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Originally Posted by hick

None of this is surprising if you do much sledneck'n. I constantly see stupid shit any time I am near another party of 'bilers.

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Me too.

But then again the whole reason I got a sled was to get away from stupid backcountry skiers doing stupid shit around me. :)

The average B/C skier or trekker probably covers about 5% of the terrain that a sled will in an average day.Where skiers can and will take in their surroundings, making observations about snowpack,weather,temperature,features etc,a sledder is doing 30 to 80MPH over the same area.There is no way that person on that machine can make good/bad decisions about travelling in the backcountry;they are simply going too fast.It doesn't help you sit off the snow either,without your feet in it,how in hell do you know if its layered,faceted,rotten,shearing?I don't know shit about sledding,but I have been in the backcountry and I would be scared to death riding up and down some of the stuff the flatlanders do. Guess if you have no fear(or self preservation) you don't know the danger.

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Originally Posted by Meanfruit

Where skiers can and will take in their surroundings, making observations about snowpack,weather,temperature,features etc,a sledder is doing 30 to 80MPH over the same area.There is no way that person on that machine can make good/bad decisions about travelling in the backcountry;they are simply going too fast.

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Total bullshit.


I look at a slope the exact same way whether I'm on a sled or on skis alone. The fact that you CAN get into an area so much faster just means you can devote more of your day to figuring out what does or does not present a danger.

The truth of the matter is that most sledders just don't. And at least around here, neither do most of the skiers.

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Originally Posted by kidwoo

Total bullshit.


I look at a slope the exact same way whether I'm on a sled or on skis alone. The fact that you CAN get into an area so much faster just means you can devote more of your day to figuring out what does or does not present a danger.

The truth of the matter is that most sledders just don't. And at least around here, neither do most of the skiers.

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Not total bullshit, but you're right, the sledders would actually have to get off their sled and dig a little or only use the sled for access and then skin up to their line.

One other fact is that when you're skinning, you are inherently more in tune with what the snow is doing, you can hear a whomph, you can feel the different ski pens as you ascend, you can use your pole to feel for layers, sugar snow/TG/Depth hoar (although wallowing on a sled you can probably determine this as well).

The fatality stats on avalanche.org pretty much prove that skiers are more in tune w/ the snowpack than sledders. I'm guessing education is key.

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Originally Posted by Ermine

One other fact is that when you're skinning, you are inherently more in tune with what the snow is doing, you can hear a whomph, you can feel the different ski pens as you ascend, you can use your pole to feel for layers, sugar snow/TG/Depth hoar (although wallowing on a sled you can probably determine this as well)..

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Definitely right about that, at least in 'greater liklihood' setup. But there's very little you can pick up while skinning that you can't pick up while out on a sled if you just take the time to do it. If you hear a weak layer collapsing, you'll find that layer digging a pit too.

But that, 'more time to recognize' aspect of skinning is a big reason I quit backcountry skiing with tweakers who are so focused on hauling ass uphill, they're not looking at anything around them.

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Originally Posted by Ermine

The fatality stats on avalanche.org pretty much prove that skiers are more in tune w/ the snowpack than sledders. I'm guessing education is key.

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Not entirely. You also have to recognize that someone out sledding all day can hit 10 sketchy faces where as a skier would hit only one or two. I don't disagree but I also don't feel comfortable believing that the majority of skiers know more than the majority of sledders. Both communities are full of morons. :D For every pair of sledders I've seen on a slope at a time, I've seen just as many skiers doing the same thing.

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Originally Posted by kidwoo

...I don't disagree but I also don't feel comfortable believing that the majority of skiers know more than the majority of sledders. Both communities are full of morons. :D For every pair of sledders I've seen on a slope at a time, I've seen just as many skiers doing the same thing.

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I'd love to say that the average backcountry skier has more avie knowledge than the average sledder, but I have no proof. When I took my avalanche classes in the early 90s though, there were no sledders per se in the classes (and sleds weren't crotch rockets like they are today). While thinking of proof I remembered touring around the Alta periphery where another group of skiers almost buried me years ago. I no longer tour there when the lifts are running.

Here ya go though, the more you get out (just takes time) the more likely you are to witness, trigger, get caught in or lose a friend to a slide. This in turn increases your quest for knowledge and determining where you're going to draw the line of what is acceptable risk and what is not. I would think seasoned backcounty skiers and sledders are much more conservative in their line choice and snowpack eval than they may have been earlier.

I think the margin of error is far less for sleds given the weight and power. Lots of backcountry skiers make dumb choices all the time and get away with it. Does that make them more aware or just lucky?

actually you don't need a mountain to kill yourself on a sled ,if you Google snow mobile deaths you can bring up similar snowmobile death totals in states that are flat ,I seem to remember 36 deaths in Wisconsin during the 08 season

here's a cool vid and 16 pages of how sledders think (or not)

http://www.snowandmud.com/forum/f14/...deo-14428.html

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

I seem to remember 36 deaths in Wisconsin during the 08 season.

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That's because people here mostly use snowmobiles as high-speed transportation from bar to bar. The only way to have fun on a sled in WI is to go really really fast. Combine that with a bottle of schnaaps and you've got a fatality waiting to happen.

I think Powder 11's post is dead on - there are easily as many dumbass skiers in any given area as there are dipshit slednecks. The only difference is that the slednecks are much more efficient triggers.

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Originally Posted by Meanfruit

The average B/C skier or trekker probably covers about 5% of the terrain that a sled will in an average day.Where skiers can and will take in their surroundings, making observations about snowpack,weather,temperature,features etc,a sledder is doing 30 to 80MPH over the same area.There is no way that person on that machine can make good/bad decisions about travelling in the backcountry;they are simply going too fast.It doesn't help you sit off the snow either,without your feet in it,how in hell do you know if its layered,faceted,rotten,shearing?I don't know shit about sledding,but I have been in the backcountry and I would be scared to death riding up and down some of the stuff the flatlanders do. Guess if you have no fear(or self preservation) you don't know the danger.

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This is bang on. Even if you "can" stop to take the time to get a feel for the snow while on a sled, you are always doing this inherently while walking.

Nothing like cutting across slopes with a 500 lb chainsaw...

Thats real bad luck. Hope me docs dont let me down like that. Of course they are not the same now that most of them are made overseas. Has UK production shut down completely?

the only sad thing is most of them have already reproduced... Those kids sure could use the child support

Its all relative, risk that is. Go on a club ride with street bikes and try and stay with the front pack. (no harleys here) If your not going around corners at 200kph they will leave you behind. Given the choise, I'd rather be high marking in powder coz my buddies may save my life, or I may ride out of it. Come off a yammy R1 at 200kph and your buddies may find all the body parts. example 2. Lee Lau and his crew did some cool lines at rogers pass that I have looked at and not felt comfortable about. does that give me a right to judge or critize his crew. Weren't we all a loose cannon at 19y.
Lee, no disresect, your tr rocked, thanks for the photos and skin trails for recon.

well I hooked up our sled for the kids behind the 4 wheeler. It was short lived the kids were white. We used to do this as kids and I dont remember this as a problem. Doesnt help there is a blizzard out right now. Let me know what you think.
_________________
Auto boy

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Originally Posted by Shadam

Its all relative, risk that is. Go on a club ride with street bikes and try and stay with the front pack. (no harleys here) If your not going around corners at 200kph they will leave you behind. Given the choise, I'd rather be high marking in powder coz my buddies may save my life, or I may ride out of it. Come off a yammy R1 at 200kph and your buddies may find all the body parts. .

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There are other scenarios which depending on your point of view could be worse

buddy o mine came off his R-1 when the tent poles fell out of his pup tent stuff sack and into the rear wheel in a highspeed corner

he realized as he was sliding along on his back that god wasn't finished with him ... buddy has fully recovered and now goes to church (reformed baptist)4 times a week

Having snowmobiled some 6000 miles of backcountry plenty of high marking included in the Northern US Rockies and backcountry snowboarded since 1991 in the general intermtn west . My avalanche experiences have been ptex related.

I know most if not all of the(lower48) maggots have all got 10k on the sleds and been BC since the 70's, I will just shut up now.

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Originally Posted by powder11

I think the margin of error is far less for sleds given the weight and power. Lots of backcountry skiers make dumb choices all the time and get away with it. Does that make them more aware or just lucky?

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I think Powder11 said it best. Everyone I've sledded with here in Whistler ALWAYS have beacon/shovel/prope on them, most carry a few of the following as well, knives, first aid kits, SPOT transievers, SAT phones, GPS, bivy sacs, space blanket, matches, lighter, solid fuel stove, food, extra water, etc. All it takes is spending 1 night out there, or being kept out til well after dark, or a serious injury and you start thinking of what you could possibly ever need. God knows my pack weights as much as a small child.

Early this winter nobody I know even went sledding much til feb, because avy conditions were so bad. Most of the people I know have a lot of respect for the mountains, that being said...

I have seen people on new rigs without backpacks, just as I see seasonaires hiking OB off blackcomb all the time without a backpack, or buddy, hell sometimes they're ski cutting above you.

With sledding you have a motor and 500ibs with you. Skiing... it's just you.

There are as many retards in both groups, sledding is just more dangerous, with higher odds of triggering an avalanche with the extra weight, and ability to go more places, faster and higher than skinning or bootpacking.

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Originally Posted by 1000-oaks

Nothing like cutting across slopes with a 500 lb chainsaw...

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Thats just it though, a sled+a body, coupled with the fact that a sled covers alot more terrain in a day = more avys.

And lets face it guys, we all make bad decisions when the adrenalin is pumping.:FIREdevil