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So i'm a total NOOB JONG. captial letters. If i cared enough to bold it, I would.
I finally have some money and a bud who's stoked, and I want to get into whitewater (in baby steps). I'm planning on finding a guide and taking some lessons, but what is a good first boat? I want something that I can grow into... any ideas? What makes a good boat?
Where do you live? What kind of kayaking do you aspire to?
The boat should be the least of your concerns. You will go through boats faster than any other piece of gear. With that in mind, I recommend spending most of your cash on drygear and safety equipment.
That said, I would recommend getting a used playboat. A two year old playboat would be perfect and you should be able to get one for $400. Then spend the rest of your money on:
1) The best drytop you can afford
2) a good sprayskirt
3) a NEW life jacket (PFD)
4) a good helmet with lots of protection, not a Protec
5) decent footwear that fits in your boat
6) whatever paddle you have money left over for
7) A throwbag
Good luck.
Ditto on what RootSkier said.
I'll add to his list of essentials though:
8. FLOAT BAGS
9. Nose Plugs (Smileys)
10. Ear plugs (Docs)
9 and 10 will help you stay calm under water, which help your roll. #8 is an absolute necessity if you want your friends to retrieve your boat more than once (which you will)
and
11. non-fold Knife and a whistle
That being said, a good boat depends on what you want to do. If you simply want to playboat, then buy a playboat. It will have the steepest learning curve, and you'll definitely get worked a lot, but it will be a boat you'll be able to grow into ability wise. The LiquidLogic Visions, Jackson Stars, Dagger Agent and Crazy 88's are "easier" rolling playboats than most. Stay away from the Pyranha 420 unless you like swimming a lot.
If you want to only run rivers and not play so much, then get a river runner. Easier to roll and brace, more stable and more forgiving. The Wavesport Diesel, Jackson Hero (this years, not older ones), Pyranha Ammo or Recoil, Liquid Logic Remix, Bliss Stick Mystic, Dagger Mamba are all great boats in this category.
If you want a little of both, then get a cross-over (or "river running playboat"). They're good beginner boats, but you'll grow out of it pretty quickly, unless you only plan to boat a couple times a year. They don't really do anything great, but do everything ok. They're easy to roll and stable, plus you'll be able to learn basic freestyle moves that you most likely couldn't do in a full on river runner. Wavesport EZGs or EZs or Fuse, Liquid Logic Cross River, Jackson Funs are all good boats. Stay away from Dagger in this area.
+1 for floatbags and everything else mentioned above. Not sure about nose plugs, never liked them myself.
If you're aggressive get a playboat. You'll learn and advance much faster if you're willing to take a few thrashings.
If you're looking to take it easy get a river runner. But if you do advance fairly quickly you'll want something else before your first season is over.
I went through about 3 boats (RR to RR playboat to playboat) in the first year because I didnt just go ahead and buy a playboat from the beginning.
welcome, first of all...
i agree with what everyone said up there.
One thing I learned is that you should splurg and buy what you want/what you need, not what looks in your price range.
Its my second season and i have went through 2 paddles, 2 jackets, 2 helmets,ect,ect...it doesnt help working at a shop where i can upgrade my gear whenever I want....but deff step up and get the goods so you dont have to upgrade later on..
As far as boats, I am in love with my pyranha . It will be a little hard at first because of the strong edges, but this will actually help you, teaching you to pick up the right edge and whatnot for eddy's and all that fun stuff...
A real easy boat to learn in would be a diesel, they, like the can do everything well and are a fun boat to paddle
Thanks guys, great advice. I sail a lot so i totally feel where you're coming from re: good high quality gear. I'll start trolling for a good used playboat I think, and save the big bucks for gear. I live in Calgary and I know there is a community so no doubt there are used boats kicking around
Yep Calgary is cold definately get a drytop, spend the money on a good one and it pays off, I've been using the same patagonia nemo drytop for 9 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiz
Get a playboat that is a little longer than a spud boat so you can actually catch waves and learn to surf. 7 feet is a good length
Maybe an old wavesport ez, The spud boats are way too much work in turbulent eddies.
http://www.aquabatics.com/default.as...0&V_DOC_ID=776Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiz
if yer in cowtown aquabatics is where its at ,.Find out about their pool seshions at SAIT ,you can play around,try different boats and maybe someone will help you get a roll for just a very cheap pool sesh fee.The cute lifeguards (female) are often friendly and looking for fresh meat ... also a bonus
find out about AQ's lessons ,find out what boat you might like,get into the scene ,you can rent a boat for the river and put the rental fee on a boat IN the same season
the boat swap every spring has many used boats and at least in 2006 there were about 50 used boats for sale and whatever new gear they were kicking out.Scope it early and get there at doors open
you don't need a new boat ,lots of good used plastic out there ,boats come n go like girl friends ... especialy if you end up becoming a river god
but stuff like
a decent paddle - don't phuckaround ... go for a glass werner make sure to get the right shaft size
a good pfd WITH rescue towbelt -add on rescue belts get in the way/ fall-off and end up in japan
a reasonable helmet -you don't need a glitter boy job ... go for 3/4 coverage
a dry top - Kokatat is the shit ... gortex if you can afford is NICE
a 3mm farmer john wetsuit - provides bump and scrape protection as you swim down the Kan
better to spend a little coin and gett the right stuff NOW cuz you WILL have this stuff for a long time and it WILL be more expensive to buy twice when you want to upgrade later
BUT boats will come and go easier than the girlfriend's who will tire of you coming home late stinking of rancid polypro & neoprene,going boating instead of being with her ,your strange new paddling buddies all of whom seem to have varying degrees of ADHD,talking incessantly about something she doesnt understand ... ya dude now yer a river god
When I've looked for used boats I found them pretty pricey. Maybe with a new season US dollar parity will have trickled into the new stock some more and hopefully the used will follow. MEC has their gear site but again a bit steep for used I thought.
I always found MEC swap board prices kinda high for everything ,those peopel seem to wana get just about what they payed for the gear new
Its been as high as paying close to 1500$ and tax for a ww boat so i don't really consider the current prices bad at all but I would expect the higher canuck buck to be good for new boat prices .Some good deals at AQ right now on good boats like the project/ZG/crazy 88/agent many good boats<1000$ whcih is GOOD!.The EZG would probably be a really good river runner/play boat ,I have a newbie friend who did well in one
http://www.aquabatics.com/ProductCar...&idproduct=749
buddy doesnt really know enough to know what he wants and we don't know how tall /what he weighs/ foot size/inseam but he will likely be doing a bunch of swimming & paddling on the Kan inside of or hanging onto a playboat
In fairness since I am suggesting AQ I supose I should note that I have in the past and will sometime in the future possibly will do work for this outfit .Undercurrents is I believe the only other game in town and the stores are really close to one another
http://www.undercurrents.ca/
Hey XXXer, glad to see you got past the dragons at the gate.
:fm:
those were my own personal dragons RS
look in gearswap for that pyrahna seven O, that boat looks like a good all around playboat/riverrunner, think it's in Bozeman, with the strength of the US dollar you might be getting a sweet deal
I'd say the wavesport XXX... well, maybe not.
You must be kidding, XXX is THE most edgey plastic boat in existance ,there is NO foot room ,it took me 2 months and 6 tries to out fit , anybody over a 32" inseam forget it.
If yer really light around 100lb its not so bad cuz you might fit & draw less water so the edges stay out of the water , at 170 its an experiance
easy to roll tho ,1st boat I ever got a hand roll in
IMO you gotta think resale ,sure you pay more for a used EZ than say a sleek or a savage fury but you will sell a POPULAR used boat like an EZ /space cadet/EZG and get most of that coin back whereas you take the bait for some old out of date design & who is gona buy it ?
doh, thot u meant a real boat. I'll post it anyway
http://stlouis.craigslist.org/boa/616832420.html
kiss ass and burn some gas :FIREdevil
For the record, I've never been sarcastic in my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by XXX-er
I got that
The most water I consistantly I paddled the XXX in was some grade 4 on the upper quesnel and the bigger hydralics were alot of fun , at 170 I had to be REALLY careful about keeping CHARC on those big wide sqirrely eddy lines or you spin out ... its somewhat like a squirt boat except there is too much volume around trhe cockpit for downtime .In big waves you were just a submarine thru the peaks
My 14 yr old kid had no probs but I think at the time he was < 150 ... or maybe he was just better than me .A year later he grew a couple or 3 " and couldnt fit
But total newbies should be very careful of people who want to sell you old dogs ,I seen the newb show up with some old piece of shit more than once ...then what do you say especialy if he bought it from somebody you know in the local scene ?Thats why its kinda nice to get independant advice form a creditable source ,sean who used to work at AQ would tell you if something was a piece of shit , even if it was for sale in his shop ... no bulshit ever
i'm a big kid who can get a Super EZ used for $500. Should I do it?
Offer $300 first.
Agreed. I don't see $500 as that amazing of a price... besides, even the big ez is a god-forsaken curse to get into... it kills my knees. I'd say don't spend more than $350, maybe $375... unless it's absolutely MINT.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
It was used in the ocean exclusively and comes with the skirt - looks to be in great shape.
I appreciate the baseline for pricing, I'm fairly ignant about what I should spend on a used boat but tired of demoing. I'm a cornfed lad who has rented a Super EZ before and enjoyed it for my purposes (river runner, bit of play.)
Here's one without a seat for $200... I can't imagine a new seat direct from wavesport costs more than $75-$100... that'd still be a lot cheaper.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeStrummer
Here's the link: http://boatertalk.com/gear/gear-detail.php?gid=37770
I think it's in Moscow, Idaho.
what is big ,Over 200LB ? there i still the big easy in there between the easy and the super . I googled just for yucks and found this eddy flower they got a boat guide ...looks like a good source of beta
http://www.eddyflower.com/ShowBoat.aspx?BoatId=108
a boat without a seat was likely converted to C-1 and then the seat dissappeared (seen that happen ) so depending on how buddy did that there could be more holes in the hull to anchor the c-1 setup ... usually more beat up
yeah RR the thigh braces on the big ez lik pouch , my theory is the FAT system came along AFTER the boat was designed and was retro'ed into the easy while the transformers (a dog) ZG's (good), and anything after were designed around FAT. I took my thigh braces out stuck a sheet of 1/4 minicell under the deck,aqua sealed the hole, cut the top off of that foot brace and it was alll good even shaved 5 lbs , was great on the biggest water I ever run and it was ergonomicly better for my bod. Real happy ... except someone stole it off the roof
I go 245 or so when not trying out for the Professional Eating Circuit.
fuck ya super ez might be the ONLY hope in a used PLAYBOAT cuz all the kayak pros and designers are little fuckers like me so you are sol
consider what skirt will that boat come with cuz you WILL need to buy a deck and a good one can cost you making the actual price of the boat at least >100$ cheaper and come to think of it I believe that is NOT a standard LC-1 deck for the super EZ so there could be hassles finding one ... good if you already got one
also if you seen it ,touched it ,don't have to fuck around over the interent ,pay shipping ... that is always worth something
the new Fluid line out of S.A. has some good boats for BIG boys but then you are into mo money
[QUOTE=L7;1761756] Maybe with a new season US dollar parity will have trickled into the new stock some more and hopefully the used will follow. QUOTE]
doing the US to CAN pricing on used boats was alwasy a math equation when folks were talking price even if you werent gona buy across the line
the can$ was what 65-70 cents 1 year ago ,now its par or better with US$, so used boats originaly bought with a US$ have become 30% cheaper when bought with a canuck buck
don't know what its like dealing used boats across the boarder
everyone knows that your first boat should be a dancer...come on, you been livin' under a rock?
hey I had the very 1st dancer in the okanagan valley and its probably still sitting under my x-gf's deck at the lake ...lots of folks thot it was too short and you would never be able to attain anything going up stream
edit:actualy 23 years ago the dancer was a great 1st boat but time marches on .It was actualy my second boat, the 1st was the R5 river runner a truly heinous piece of shit ,a boat everybody said it would be a good beginner boat but everyone always sez some piece of shit old gear is gona be good beginner gear ... like beginners don't need good stuff?
totally wrong IMO, new flat hull boat turn much easier ,seen lots of folks do better in them ...you just don't want something tooo trippy
After I got the dancer i quit swimming
Super EZ is real wide and not easy to roll for fatties with no flexibility.
The Super EZ is a great beginner boat.
Super stable for river running, yet has playboat capability.
Basically if your boat is easy to roll, it flips easy, where as if it's stable, well, tougher to roll.
I've found in most cases, you either have your roll or you don't, so it doesn't really matter. It's not that much more difficult to roll.
I wish I never sold my Super EZ, but I had to at the time. I'm 6'3", and I was comfortable in that boat.
I now have a Jackson Superstar, I can barely fit in it, and it's much more squirrely.
Hope that helps.
Blurred, for someone who fucking rips on skis, you sound like you have a deep sand impaction problem when you get into a kayak. A Superstar is all around better than a Super EZ, unless your goal is simply to survive easy, boring whitewater.
If you are running truly difficult whitewater, where "squirrellyness" actually matters, you should be in a creek boat, anyways.
Otherwise, your argument is identical to "yeah, skinny skis are way better, the dude at REI told me so." :fm:
I worded that wrong. I like the Superstar, but I think the Super EZ is a much better beginner boat for someone without their roll, being that it's much more stable. Swimming everything isn't exactly a good way to stoke somebody on the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
What is that statistic on the percentage of people who try kayaking, and ones that stick with it?
very low, especially in the inter-mountain west where the water is cold and continuous=log ass, cold swims while learning. There is no equivalent to sunny, spring days on groomers for people learning to paddle. So you are right to direct people learning to bigger boats.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
the Super EZ is a great boat to get into whitewater. It is fucking huge. As someone who weighs 175 that thing was like trying to sumo wrestle for me. But I think at 245 you would be really happy in it. It has a huge cockpit so make sure you end up with the right size skirt.
for a beginner who weighs 245#, go with the Super EZ, unless you want to swim more often starting out.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
What about a boat for a 6'4 around 200lb who can roll 70% of the time (in flat water)? Just started not too long ago and want to start looking around.
Edit - I have little interest in playboating. Creeking seems awesome, river running too.