Best Euro Resort

Well, a friend and I are planning to take a year off from school sometime soon(within the next 2-3 years) and head to Europe for the winter to ski. What are some of the best towns and resorts for us to stay in. We'd like someplace where english is commonly spoken, that tends to get consisten reliable snow(by Euro standards), and that offers a good mix of wide open terrain and some tree skiing for variety. Oh yeah, and a large population of single women would be nice too. So far we are thinking of Verbier or St. Anton; however, we don't know of many resorts so any info would be great. We've been mulling this idea over for a while deciding where in North America would be good, but in the end we decided that Europe would be a better bet. Thanks everyone.

-Ben

Engelberg.

However Verbier and St. Anton are very good options too. Of the two I'd say Verbier, mainly because of limitations on offpiste possibilities seemingly being put into effect in St. Anton. The terrain there is great, but if you're not allowed to ski it than what.

As for Engelberg: read hop's signature and add amazing terrain and loads of snow (after euro standards) to that.

Verbier is great in terms of skiing/chicks/fun etc. I would definitely recommend it - I had a LOT of fun there. Only problem is it has got really frickin expensive due to the rich Geneva crowd throwing their money around. Well-located studios there (around the 150 square foot size) were selling for $200,000 a couple of years ago - I hate to think what for now... So ski bum rent is expensive even if you live really badly. If you want to be in Verbier you might have to work your butt off before winter - and without an EU or Swiss passport or great contacts you are unlikely to get a job there.

Apparently Engleberg would seem better from living costs point of view, although I know nothing about the skiing (except that I've heard it is good).

You could also do OK in the 3 Vallées or Val d'Isere. Personally I find there are too many Brits there (and of the obnoxious variety) for my liking but the skiing measures up to what you want and they are quite high. Cheaper living possibilities (in satellite villages) than Verbier.

Personally I am over big resorts. If you go to a carefully chosen medium-sized resort you'll prolly have as much fun - eg somewhere like Serre Chevalier or Engleberg (most would call it small). Cheaper living, still loads of partying, etc. If they have the altitude and lifts then the skiing should be good - many of these resorts are way underrated for their skiing (eg L'Alpe d'Huez) meaning you should not be fighting for the powder. Watch out for "family" resorts - they can be pretty quiet (read: dead).

Telepath: what's going on in St A? I have heard nothing about this.

As Mulletizer said for Verbier....La Chable in the valley below might be an option, Cheap rent, possible to hitch hike home.....Courcheval or Val d'Isere would certainly have the skiing and girls to keep you happy but the ski resort clientel would drive you to insanity......
It depends on what you want from your season, if its ski hard party hard then the above resorts will suit, if its soulfull skiing and probably more powder then Serre Chevalier would be a good bet. If however you want to push the laws of Physics, ski the hardest gnarliest lift served and standing in line, even fighting for your place in line dosen't bother you then go to the five ring circus that is Chamonix.

Thanks guys. We would much rather have a more soulful ski place that offered better snow with less nightlife than mediocre snow on huge terrain. Engleberg was originally one of our thoughts, but we kinda ruled it out for some reason, sounds like it should be back in the mix.
While we wouldnt mind fighting for tram spots in Cham, I can say that we would much rather ski smaller lines with much smaller crowds than have to do battle everyday. I never even thought of some of the smaller places you mentioned, but thanks and keep 'em comin.:D

-Ben

Telepath, I'm very interested to hear what is going on in St. A as well. The only issue I know of is they won't let you up Valluga II or is it III (the top one) without a guide. Its only a 20min hike otherwise so no biggy to me.

The answer to the question really does depend on what you are looking for. I spent a couple years hoping back and forth most weekends from London to the Alps and spent weeks in St. A, La Grave, Zermatt, etc. before coming back to the US and these were my impressions.

If you want most snow with excellent terrain my three votes are St. Anton, Andermatt, and Engleberg. Honestly don't know if I could live in Andermatt as its a very small town with not much going on. But if you look at snow depths year after year and consider the geography of where they sit its these three places seem to get the most snow on average. Andermatt is also pretty dang expensive, although no where near as bad as Verbier.

St. A. is my personal fav because its got huge snow, pretty big lift network (I think about 85lifts) great Austrian party scene, reasonably priced, and great off-piste. For me the main thing it doesn't have is the absolutely enormous Vert that Cham or La Grave have or the amazing glaciated terrain/scenary. Its beautiful and the vert is about 5000 (although not often skiable in one shot), but not on likes of Cham or La Grave. I will be coming back here this year because of the snow, I can ski pow a week after a storm with only a 20 min hike, reasonably priced, and the party scene is damn fun.

Verbier, while having amazing terrain, party scene, and great lift system is REALLLY expensive. It also doesn't get 1/2 the snow that some of the other already mentioned places get. Its shielded by some rather significant peaks from storms from certain directions. You would definitely have a great time there.

As an American its pretty cool to see the scale of some of the mega resorts ala 3V's, Val d'Isere etc. I definitely wouldn't live in the 3V's. There are a shit load of lifts and its trult huge, but also a lot of people (although the off-piste is relatively quite), and more moderate snowfall than others.

You could consider Val d'Isere although its not cheap either. Huge mega resort, great party scene, pretty good snow, high elevation. High elevation is KEY in the alps and becoming more important each year.

The Serre Che, La Grave, Alpe du Huez corridor is another that is worth checking out. I would think you would want a car here to really explore the different areas. You really have a huge variety of terrain, towns, and scenary here. I didn't find any one place that I loved as a place to hang out for a long time, but combined its tough to beat the terrain. Its also far more mellow than 3V's, or Val with a more "french" feel than some of the mega resorts (which I consider a good thing). Snowfall isn't as much as the originally mentioned 3, but its high elevation which is good. Snowfall seems to depend a bit on the year as they are further south in france but I'm sure Mull/Telepath have better info on that.

Cham is amazing and you will have to visit it, but wouldn't be my place to live the winter. Great town, unbelievable terrain / vert / glacial scenary. Couldn't handle the lift lines (1hr waits on Gr Mnt!?!?!), the pow gets skied fast (unless you go for some looong tours) because there are so many rippin skiers, and the separation of the various areas can be a pain.

Oh boy, this got a bit long, sorry. Hope it helps.

If you want snow, terrain, and ladies...do not go to Livigno IT.

Engelberg was a lot of fun, and someplace that definitely needs further exploration. There wasn't much snow when Glisseur and I went there, but a few weeks later Glisseur returned and had some of the best skiing of the season. Not much tree skiing that I saw, so the potential for whiteout is pretty good.

If the town of Andermatt had a pluse it would also be worthy, however it seemed to be pretty dead when G and I cruised through. Funny locals though...

Cham is a zoo.

Serre Che and La Grave are both very cool. Of all the places I've been in Yurp they are my favorites. But as I mentioned, Engelberg is definitely on my radar.

Hmm, I'm not really a 100% into the St. Anton thing, just remembered some rumours from a couple friends who are usually in the know. I'll see if I can get a rundown on what they were talking about later.

Yeah, Serre and La Grave rule. But hey - we don't need any more people there ;)

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Originally posted by Telepath
Hmm, I'm not really a 100% into the St. Anton thing, just remembered some rumours

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Was there in January, my bro in April. Both of us skied unlimited backcountry, so definitely no truth in that one exept for the last Valluga section, but that has always been.


As for the right choices: St. Anton and Verbier probably rule when looking at it overall and if you are not into skinning/hiking a lot for your turns. Since I skied both places a lot in the past (and all the other resorts mentioned at least once) I pretty much can confirm what Comish sair earlier. At Verbier you meanwhile have to fight for your freshies too after a dump because all locals aroud the Geneva Lake and elsewhere invade the resort early morning for the first lift up - not always fun, especially when considering that the mountains often open in a sequence (depending on avalanche risks) and the crowds don't get distributed right away.
That and more frequent dumps vote for Stanton, Verbier is the more charming village though.

Usually no shortage of chicks in both spots in case you want to give a shot at them.:D

Thanks a lot to everyone for the info, its great. Now, from what I've heard about Verbier, I think it has been ruled out, mainly because we don't have much money. Now if you had the choice between St. Anton and Endelberg, which would you pick and why? They seem to be the leaders snowfall wise, which is most important to us. Also, we don't plan on owning car, if that makes any difference in people's suggestions. Thanks again and keep it comin.

-Ben:cool:

Stanton, definitely.
Engelberg does not compare sizewise to the 80+ lifts the whole Arlberg region has to offer.

Hmm, St. Anton and the Arlberg region definately offer more lifts, but I like the Engelberg terrain better, imo more steep stuff and more acreage pr. skier. Andermatt is nearby and a frikkin cool place (not to live but to ski). But yeah, St. Anton is also a good bet; guess it comes down to personal preferences and where people have had their best experiences.

I'd pick Engelberg.

thanks for confusing me guys;) . It seems that its been narrowed down to those two places. Which one will most likely be cheaper to live in for the season, thats what it seems to be coming down to. Since they are basically equal snowfall wise and each has their respective strong suits terrain wise, cost of living will decide it. Cheap rent is good, since we would like to work as little as possible. Feel free to make more suggestions on places keeping in mind that we won't have a car.

Think snow,
Ben

really sorry to get in late in this....
The general view is that Verbier is too expensive compared to StA and Eng? are you sure? It's all depending by were you want to stay. The swiss franc, moreover, is now definitely weaker than the Euro, which is pretty strong over the $. My friends who were in StA this winter did not tell that it was cheaper than Verbier. My suggestion is a bit different: Never been in EU? Just travel and find your favorite spot. Don't want a car? Use the train, connections are frequently OK. Using this perspective, StA and Eng are definitely much worse than Cham and Verbier as a hub for travelling.

If Verbier, I second Idris's post that you can find much cheap(er) lodging in the valley (La Chable). Also, it is on a train line so you can get yourself over to Champex and Super St. Bernard (w/ bus transfer) for more great terrain. The Verb 4 Valleys pass will provide a lot of room for skiing. But avoid skiing Verb over Christmas holiday and any weekend in the month of Feb. It drowns in tourists in long wait lines, pistes are extreme......ly crowded.

I also second the last comment. Get out an move around. Train and bus transpo are excellent linking all major resort destinations. Lots to see and ski here.

Also, follow the snow. If you picked Verb this season you would have been very disappointed because the Eastern side of CH and western Austria were pounded EVERY week by big storms.

We in the western side were lucky to get 3 - 4 major dumps. Dec was a bust until just before Christmas. Then, another long dry spell in Jan. I was using my rock skis in Jan in PDS. Be flexible and watch the reports and follow the snow patterns. Who knows? Next season, Eastern CH may be missing the storms and Western CH gets pounded.

LITT

You need:

Reliable Snow
Open Terrain
Tree Skiing

English is widely spoken everywhere, so that shouldn't be a problem. If you haven't got a car you'll need a big ski area to keep you interested, preferably high and with a glacier to ski as a fall back option. This is one option.

Rent an apartment in Les Deux Alpes. This is one of the busiest party towns in the Alps. If you can't score here, there's really no hope for you. It's fairly cheap and there's a big range of accommodation available. What's more it's pretty high (1650m) and the skiing goes up to 3568m on the biggest skiable glacier in the Alps. There are big parks if jibbing is your thing and you can notch up descents of 2300m vertical. You will be guaranteed skiing come what may, one reason why the Mondial du Ski event relies on Les Deux Alpes every November.

LDA isn't perfect though. The ski area isn't the best for off piste skiing and it's not a major 'name' resort if that's what you want to drop. If you're looking for quaint architecture and the soul of skiing you'll be in for a bit of a shock and some here dislike LDA precisely because it is like Faliraki on snow which is fair enough. There's always plenty to do at night though. The ski area is very high but a little narrow in places and during peak season can get crowded but there are 70 lifts, including a number of high speed gondolas, quads and an underground funicular that burrows through the glacier.

In peak times the answer to this is simply to skii off the top lift into the La Grave ski area. Bingo. You can get back into the LDA ski area using La Grave's lifts and the run down at the end of the day is a blast when the Deux Alpes ski area is completely empty - nigh on 7000 feet of fast cruising and steeps all to yourself through some of the most beautiful Alpine scenery.

From LDA you can also easily get to Serre Chevalier and there's even an affordably priced helicopter liaison to Alpe d'Huez. So there you have it - a way of accessing the world class skiing of La Grave whilst enjoying lively nightlife with guaranteed snow. It may not have been what you were expecting but sometimes the obvious choice isn't always the best.

http://www.tetongravity.com/usergall...319/scenic.jpg
Summer in LDA...

Roo's right on about the English. and his stuff about LDA is spot on. A couple of other things though...

Two good points about LDA:

- LDA was voted as 2002's easiest place in France to get laid by French FHM magazine.
- LDA is Mulletizer's favourite resort when judged on the kebab scale. The donners in LDA are good enough to be eaten when sober. They were worth the drive over from LG for. :D

A few bad (IMO): not many trees. I am not sure the LDA season pass is good for the La Grave lift. Don't quote me on this but I did meet season workers from LDA who'd had to buy a LG pass for a day there. Check that out - they might just have been retards. Truck loads of British school trips from March onwards.

LDA would definitely be a fun place to be but not my cup of tea. Prolly not the "soulful" tpe of place you mentioned.

Wow, I've never heard of some of these places, I suppose getting a good detailed map of Europe would be helpful:p. This is the least important category of all, but I would like to try to avoid resorts in france. Not a major deal, but if at all possible I would prefer to. Also, from what I've read Verbier does not get as much snow as Engelberg or St. Anton. I would rather ski shorter vert and less shit my pants terrain in good snow than the other way around. That may change suggestions a bit, and keep em coming, its very helpful. Thanks.

-Ben

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Originally posted by glademaster
I would rather ski shorter vert and less shit my pants terrain in good snow than the other way around

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No offense; but why not Mt. Baker or some SLC resort then? I'd say that St. Anton and Engelberg are VERY good bets for good snow over here; and they do have the terrain to go with it. But you'll be skiing more crap snow over here in a good year than in Mt. Baker during a bad year. Sad (to some) but true.

Skiingwise long vert and "scary" terrain is what is worth coming to Europe for. It's just different; a resort with less than 100m vert is hardly taken seriously over here; Serre Chevalier has 1300m vert and is considered a "short-run" place. Liftaccessed offpiste is huge; and in most places you can go where you want when you want. But no matter where you go the snow conditions will from time to time be enough to scare you shitless. Not that it matters; it's all part of the european experience (ask hop) and weird snow normally doesn't mean stuff don't get skied; it'll just get skied in a different way.

Telepath's nailed it. The amount of conditions you're throwing at it will mean that you're effectively after the 'ideal' resort. If you're nixing France, you're effectively writing off most of the Alps' most spectacular skiing.

Sounds to me like you're leaning towards St Anton.

roo, you're right, I am leading towards St. Anton at this point, just becuase looking at maps of the Arlberg make me drool. We plan on travelling to multiple ski areas while we are over there, but a home base with great skiing near our chalet/apartment is very appealing.

The fact that I could ski where I want when I want to is the most appealing aspect of Europe to me. Crappy snow isn't a big deal, but my point was that there are more consistent(by euro standards) snowfall resorts than verbier. Also, I'd like to live there because it's different than here in the states, I wanna see different cultures and ways of life. And to be honest, I'm somewhat bored with American skiing, not by the terrain but by the boundaries, I don't like ropes and closed signs, I want the freedom Europe has. Plus they have hotter chicks too;)

-Ben

Saying that StA or Eng have more snow than Cham or Verb or LDA is actually misleading. It's simply different from one day to another, one week to another, one month etc etc. This last year, for instance, most of the snow has been in the south-eastern part of the alps (dolomiti in italy, very nice places, BTW..... favorite secret spot of some people who do not want to share it). Next year, believe me, who knows? Again, that's way I insist that if you are lucky enough to have enough time, the best experience would simply be TRAVELLING.

I bummed in St. Anton in 1989 - 1990. I can't say enough good about it. If I had to rate my top 10 days of skiing ever in my life, I could honestly say that at least five of them were from that winter, including number 1, 2 & 3. You'll have a blast there. I have been going back almost every year since then.

The one bad thing about it for me is that I had such a great time there that I really haven't done very much of the rest of Europe. I know that it is hard on a ski bum budget, but if you can figure it out some how, have a base like St. Anton and try to travel around as much as possible. Trains are your friend.

Have a blast!!

Thanks H-Man. Thats what we were really thinking, use trains as much as possible to get around. All the info has been great, but I could always use more:)

Thanks
Ben

Verbier 61, I agree with your premise that the snow in the alps is different every year/month/day based on weather patterns and that some years Austria gets bombed while sometimes the south, ie Italy gets it.

The tough thing on comparing snowfall in the alps is no one actually publishes snowfall totals so all we have to rely on is base depths. Now to be remotely accurate on this comparison one should compare at similar altitudes since we all know snowfall in the alps is hugely elevations dependent. When one does that you find that St. Anton routinely clocks in with a >350cm depth at the high elevation, as do Andermatt and Engleberg. In Andermatt's case they can get storms from the south and north and lesser extent west. St. Anton is the first high range all that crappy German/Dutch rainy weather hits and so seems to get good snow from the west or north. The dolomites for example only get snow from the south (which traditionally has fewer storms, think sunny riviera vs crappy German rain) so their snow depths will rarely hit the 350-400cm mark.

The ski club of Great Britain has data for I think it was the last 10 years. I'm not saying this data is perfect, but it has more or less matched my observations of reported depths for the past couple years so I'm inclined to believe the general trends they show. There unfortunately isn't anywhere else that even tries to do the same thing so its all we have.

I also liked the suggestion to just fly over and travel around via train until you find a place you like. St. Anton is much farther from the rest of the high alps or places that have been suggested so won't be the best base camp for travel. You definitely should check out the range between Cham and Zermatt which is the highest and most beautiful to me. The huge glaciers in that region are unlike anything we have in the US. Damn cool.

Sorry about another long rambling babble... I had such a damn good time skiing in the alps that I can ramble endlessly about it.

I have been stupid I forgot to mention
http://www.snow-forecast.com/
this year it has been simply OK in reporting snow and in forecast, at least for the western alps where I spent most of the time ;)

Since no one mentioned it: Stanton has got an own train station and really gnarly bc runs - you just need to know how to get into them. On that point I do not agree to Tele's comparison to Engelberg.
But one good point is right for sure: when spending a whole season you should try to move around and not stick just to one single spot.

I think Engleberg has more vertical and some glaciated terrain which St. A. does not have. There is plenty of off-piste in St. A. but its not the huge scary long steep coulouirs or faces that exist in other places such as Engleberg, La Grave etc. Steep yes, long by US standards, yes, but not by Euro standards.

Telepath is right to a certain extent that long vert is one of things that is so awesome about the alps. Another piece is just the scale of it. Hard to imagine skiing 80+ lifts interconnected from the US. Plus add in taxi rides from neighboring towns after some epic long off-piste decent and it adds to something we don't get too often in the US.

There is also a cultural component which ben has hit on as well that makes skiing in the alps really cool for us Yanks.

Must do homework and stop procrastinating. Yet again this board has sucked me in!?!?

Ben, when are you going?

I'm planning on going 2 or 3 years from now, yeah it seems a long way off, but I want to work hard now and save up as much dough as I can so I have to do little if any work once there. Glaciated terrain is great, and I will visit Cham, La grave and verbier along with plenty of others while I'm there. However, I would feel safer skiing no glacier stuff most of the time, since there are fewer crevasses and other potential pitfalls that are associatted with glacier skiing. St. Anton looks kool to me just because the Arlberg is so damn wide, yeah it may not have the biggest vert or craziest couloirs, but a ski area that is 25 miles wide has a certain appeal to someone who usually skis in NY state and VT. Thanks for the input. if you're over there while we are, we have to hook up for some turns.

-Ben

Some others (my apologies to le viellards here)
The Milky Way (Via Lattea) - Consists of Montgenevre, Claviere, Sansicario, Saulz d'Oulx, Sestriere all interskiable on one ticket. Driving from one end to the other is about 40 miles. It's easy to get to from Briancon, the base of Serre Chevalier.
The Maurienne Valley - The valley itself is not too pretty but it's cheap and accesses an amazing array: Les Trois Vallees (Val Thorens), Val Frejus and Mont Cenis. Up at the end of the valley is Bonneval-sur-Arc which is the backside of Val d'Isere. St. Michel du Maurienne is a decent little town.

I'm flummoxed as to why you've excluded France, but as I've mentioned too many times before, Briancon is freeeking mind blowing for the terrain that is accessible within an hour. Both of the above as well as Bardonnecia, La Grave, Vars- Risoul, the Queyras (4 dinky 3k vert touring areas), Serre Chevalier, Puy St. Vincent and a bunch of other smaller places.

I do not mean to totally rule out France; however, I would prefer to choose other places over it, it is still an option in my book.

Do you dislike French people?

I hope you aren't ruling out France for the silly political reasons that many Americans have toward France over the last year or so...

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Originally posted by glademaster
I do not mean to totally rule out France; however, I would prefer to choose other places over it, it is still an option in my book.

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OK, but consider Briancon. Hit La Grave when it's good, if it's too windy, go up to the top of Montgenevre, traverse over into Italy, traverse over to your left and choose from about a mile of unskied, NE facing pow lines down into the larch forests. Bored? Go ski the couloirs off the top of Val Frejus, or try to ski all variants of the Trifide, the Banane and Couloir du Lac at La Grave. Note that not all of La Grave is glaciers or dangerous. Go speed skiing at Vars....

Quote:

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Originally posted by comish
I hope you aren't ruling out France for the silly political reasons that many Americans have toward France over the last year or so...

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Yeah, the French might have some strange habits (eg eating major quantities of cheese) but they are genarally pretty nice. I was welcomed much more by the locals in LG than in Verbier (where I said hello every single morning to the same old local guy for 3 months and he never responded) although it might be as much becasue it is a much smaller place.

A Frenchman came up with this which I think is very cool:

http://www.skipass.com/shop/gvd.gif

edit: basically means "Thou shalt ski"

Buster speaks truth and wisdom. I would bear in mind the places he has suggested.

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Originally posted by Mulletizer
Buster speaks truth and wisdom. I would bear in mind the places he has suggested.

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Yep. Enough that I'd wish he's shut up soon ;)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Telepath
Yep. Enough that I'd wish he's shut up soon ;)

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Yeah, me too actually. :D

Quote:

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where I said hello every single morning to the same old local guy for 3 months and he never responded

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mullet > maybe he was actually deaf...

Briançon's a nice central spot...

After doing more research, I am retracting my statement about ruling out French resorts. What about the Serre Chevalier area? Looking at a piste map it seems like it has a good mix of tree skiing and above treeline terrain. What is the snowfall usually like there? The more time I spend trying to narrow it down, the more resorts I find that look great. I guess there are worse choices to have to make:D .

-Ben

Don't go there. Instead go to Seefeld. Or Alpbach. Maybe Heiligenblut or somewhere the gemutlichkeit is gemutlich. Alternatively there's Pamporovo, Soldeu or Valberg.