Printable View
so at what point is it relitively safe to get out there and reap some corn, I know right now the pack is shit, windblown suncrust wind and rain + warming as in about to slide, but when should I try to ski couoirs and have a decent chance at survival? What should I look for in a snowpack? Are north or south aspects safer? How do I not get killed?
Crawl under your bed and don't come out.
I was thinking about asking the same question...but I didn't. Ill just wait until many freeze/thaw cycles, theres enough to do until then.
If you have to ask this question, you shouldn't be going without someone who has a clue about what they are doing.
AKPM, it seems to me that you are on dangerous ground, maybe biting off more than you can chew on this avi situation. PLEASE BE CAREFUL! Your statement alone does not inspire confidence in your knowledge/abilities.
This is not a slam.
Simple. Until you learn to dig a pit and examine the layers, stay out of the backcountry.
Go read some avalanche books, take a class, and go dig a pit and learn yourself with Ingrid and Lhea.
AKPM,
These, unfortuantely, are not questions like "changing out your fork" or "mounting freerides on my snowskates". They can't be answered over the internet. Take a class offered by a local guide or the forest service. READ UP! Z has a thread over in Movies, Books and Music regarding good avy reading. Buy those and study them. But whatever you do, do not venture out there without someone who definitely knows their shit, or before you know yourself.
Cheers.
I know about winter snowpack pretty good, and I know summer snowpack is relitively safe, I just am wondering about what point spring snow becomes summer snow, like when I dig my pit should I look for the lack of any layers, does summer snow ever slide from the ground? I know right now the BC is a huge no go because its raining and windy as hell, but I'm thinking of hitting stuff this may/ june that I wouldn't otherwise ski (with winter snow) I'm just wondering about the safety of summer snow, I know there are wet avis or slush flows or whatever, do these pose the same threat as say a big slab would? If I can't dig a pit because the snow is hella solid and I can't even stick my pole into it (more then the first few inches of corn) is it safe? After something has slid if there wasn't more precip is it safe? I know being there is the best thing and a beacon probe shovel, and a partner are a must for these things I want to ski, just trying to increse my avy knowledge here
AKPM....take a look, i think you already did, at my solo summit TR. In my opinion, no matter how good an av forecaster one is, there is always a chance something will rip. Knowing the terrain is very important. If its rock, like the pics I showed with the glideslides, then those baby can rip when temps get warm, especailly the temps at the snow/rock or soil interface. Snowpacks usually melt from the bottom up and thats what causes some stuff to rip.
You're best advice is of course to take some classes, learn more, and get out and use the practice.
If you are to hit anything in the spring, east and south faces warm the quickest and should be hit EARLY! those will most likely go. Its the opposite in mid winter when you should hit those faces first because of quicker bonding.
Usually there is a window that you should hit but without the knowledge, its hard to predict and thats why you should take a class. Or, go out with the av forecasters like I occasionally do.
Read up here,
http://www.offpistemag.com/themag/avy/vol2/spring.html
As mentioned your Q's don't inspire a ton of confidence, be careful. take the time to learn, don't just run out headlorn.
headlorn?
Quote:
Originally posted by iceman
headlorn?
Headlong, where did headlorn come from???
:confused:
I dunno, but it's a cool word, a combination of headlong and forlorn. I guess it means "rush off and be very sad".
The first words out of my mouth every year at level one class, Stoy.Quote:
Originally posted by Stoysluttie1
In my opinion, no matter how good an av forecaster one is, there is always a chance something will rip.
Another note: Pinner said it best on the chair at Silverton. "You can have all the knowledge you want, but nothing equals actual experience." For that reason, find a partner with real experience and not just book knowledge.
I love Offpiste Magazine.... do they still do anything?Quote:
Originally posted by CaddyDaddy77
Read up here,
http://www.offpistemag.com/themag/avy/vol2/spring.html
As mentioned your Q's don't inspire a ton of confidence, be careful. take the time to learn, don't just run out headlorn.
Like RF said... You can never learn experience... that's the point every instructor.... ever book... ever guide... everyone with experience makes.
AKPM I'm not the most experienced person by any measure. You aren't either and you already know that... that's why you asked.
If you know you aren't, that's a step. Now go out and get experienced without getting dead in the process (most preferably by going out with someone with experience who knows what they are doing... but remember... never place your total faith in them... if you think something is wrong, speak up... better to be wrong about them being wrong then going along and being dead wrong.)
Though you can't learn experience... you can learn the basic knowledge sets and information to allow you to go out there and gt some experience with a lower chance of getting dead.
Take an Avie I course! Read the Avalanche Handbook (or Snow Sense)
Here is the CAIC final spring tip page... I'm sure some of the CO spring snowpack observations might match whats up there... or you should have some idea based on your recent pits.
http://geosurvey.state.co.us/avalanc...rea=1&nav=last
Everyone has made very good points, it's a very complex subject. Get the books, dig pits, test for consolidation, get an experienced partner, get some crampons and an ice axe, learn how to self arrest, learn how to construct a snow bollard and perform the dulfershitz rappell technique, etc, etc.
However, I do feel that there some useful advice that can be delivered via a board like this. A good rule of thumb to be applied to all spring/summer adventures is to start early and only do the slope when it's solid frozen, I continually use firm boot kicks to test this, if my boot doesn't go through the crust at the top then I say 'We had a good freeze last night" The good thing is that frontpointing up steep snow slopes does this test for you. I have had many great spring skis where I started at 12am, summitted around 7am and skied back down by 8am. There is nothing better than being at 14,000 feet and watching the sunrise, letting that sun soften that snow just right, then geting off of it as quick as possible.
To answer your question, I have been to AK and the snowpack will be safe on May 3rd at 4 pm. [/sarcasim]Quote:
I just am wondering about what point spring snow becomes summer snow
I know it has been said, but if you have to ask this question, I don't think you should go out there. Snow is never 100 percent safe. There is always a risk for a slide. Go with local knowledge, not what a bunch of people a thousand miles away don't know about the snowpack.
A lot of people on the board always talks about digging pits. It seems to almost always be the deciding factor in a lot of trip reports. I.E. "pit looked ok so we gave it a go. "
Looking at the snowpack is only one small piece of the puzzle. Theres always a lot of discussion as to why so I won't bother repeating it.
I spent last week in the backcountry up at rogers pass in british columbia, and didn't even dig a formal pit until the second to last day. Yet I still knew what was underneath my feet the whole time.
I'm not saying that snowpits aren't important, it's just that people overlook a lot of variables because their looking below the surface the whole time.
If I dig a pit in mid-winter colorado on an open 40 degree slope and get a solid pack with hard shears, the chances of me skiing it are still about 0.
just my 2 cents
OK find partner with avy knowledge, sighn up and take a course, reread snowsense
one more question, if I'm skiing in say the middle of july do I have to worry about avies?
Short Answer; Yes
Long Answer; sort of. There's a lot of detail and dont feel like typing.
reread Snowsense?Quote:
Originally posted by ak_powder_monkey
OK find partner with avy knowledge, sighn up and take a course, reread snowsense
one more question, if I'm skiing in say the middle of july do I have to worry about avies?
All you got out of it the first time was " I know summer snowpack is relitively safe"??? Read it again like 50 times dude.
That, my friend, is called wisdom.Quote:
Originally posted by cmor
If I dig a pit in mid-winter colorado on an open 40 degree slope and get a solid pack with hard shears, the chances of me skiing it are still about 0.
Hey AKPM, you're welcome to come down and ski around here all you want right now... join the crowd, be a statistic! :rolleyes:
Sunday, April 25th...
http://news.bellinghamherald.com/sto...s/187068.shtml
Man found dead on Mt. Baker
Snowboarder Zachary T. Phipps, 32, apparently fell to his death Sunday
Katie N. Johannes, The Bellingham Herald
A snowboarder's body was found partially buried by an avalanche at the base of a cliff Sunday near the Mount Baker Ski Area.
Authorities identified the man as Zachary T. Phipps, 32, a Whatcom County resident for the past couple of years. He was living in the Maple Falls area, said Deputy George Ratayczak, Whatcom County Search and Rescue coordinator. The Sheriff's Office reached his parents in Pennsylvania Tuesday.
Sunday evening, two barking dogs led some people who were in the area to Phipps' body. He had apparently fallen over a 10- to 15-foot cliff at Austin Pass and was partially buried by a small avalanche, Ratayczak said. Phipps appeared to have been hiking alone up the hill to snowboard down.
The people who discovered Phipps called 911 and tried to uncover his body.
With the help of two maintenance workers from the ski area, volunteers from Bellingham Mountain Rescue were able to recover Phipps' body and take him to the Whatcom County Medical Examiner's Office.
Phipps is the first person this year, and the second since December, to die in the backcountry near the ski area. Western Washington University student Jacqueline "JP" Eckstrom, 21, died Dec. 12, 2003, when she was buried in an avalanche while snowshoeing with friends at Artist Point at the end of Mount Baker Highway.
Several other people have died in the past few years while participating in winter sports in the area. They include:
• Snowmobiler Jeff Diedrich, 31, of Everett, was killed in an avalanche on the south slope of Mount Baker on April 11, 2001.
• Jason Edward Carey-Fuller, 25, of Bellingham, was one of five skiers and snowboarders to die in avalanches near the ski area in 1999, the year Mount Baker received record snowfall of 1,140 inches. He disappeared outside the ski area boundary on Jan. 18, 1999, and his body was discovered on Sept. 8, 2003.
• Sean Riches, 25, of Richmond, B.C., disappeared after being caught in a snow slide east of Chair 8 on Feb. 14, 1999. His body was found that July 19.
• Justin M. Parker, 19, of Parkland was caught in the same avalanche as Riches; he was declared dead after being flown to St. Joseph Hospital.
• Ronald Hinchey, 24, disappeared in the ski area on Dec. 19, 1999. He was found in Razorhone Canyon on Sept. 10, 2000.
• Robert W. "Bob" Henley, 40, of Bellingham was reported missing the day after Hinchey. He reportedly had been snowboarding alone. His body was found on Oct. 1, 2000.
You know AK, i said it this morning. Your questions don't inspire confidence. I don't think your getting this at all. The only thing that you will be getting is dead.Quote:
Originally posted by ak_powder_monkey
OK find partner with avy knowledge, sighn up and take a course, reread snowsense
one more question, if I'm skiing in say the middle of july do I have to worry about avies?
Here is an example. A couple of weeks ago here on the EC, Tuckerman Ravine had been rated Low for about a week and moderate to low for the previous week. Do to a serious lack of snow this winter conditions up there now are like the beginning of June which is usually closing in on the end of the season. Woke up one morning, it was raining and was going to continue raining. Checked the avi rating and it was at high with pockets of extreme. In end of season conditions, in less than 24 hours, it jumped from a week of low ratings to high.
Skiing in the middle of July really dosen't have much to do with it. The weather history of the area, the current conditions and the changes that will ocure while you are out in it are much more important. Your question of will you be safe in the middle of July can't be answered now and not up until that faithful day, and even then nothing is 100%.
If you were getiing this, you would have figure this out before you finished typing your question.
Again, this is not a slam. My intention is to try and help you.
My .02
Thanks everyone I'm gonna make sure I have someone who know what they are doing with me this summer, don't want to become a statistic
Hey, I hope one of the senior maggots steps up and offers to take you out and teach you something. Duph did it for me and Brett's doing it for SC1776. It's really the best way. :)
Just read this on Colorado's Avy site, thought you might like it:
If you're planning late-spring adventures into the high-country, we hope you continue to think “avalanche.” At this time there is still plenty of snow for skiing, snowboarding, climbing and snowmobiling that will last into June at some of the high elevation sites.
This spring significant weak sugar-like snow still lurks on the high elevation Northerly aspects and has been responsible for a number of serious accidents in the N&C mtns since mid March. This weakness snow can lead to avalanches in both cold and dry snow and in warm and wet snow. Don’t let you guard down and think that because it is spring that all slopes and gullies are safe. If you are planning to tackle steep slopes you should be looking for this weak layer (and other weak layers, too) and doing stability tests to determine how well the snow layers are adhering.
Remember that virtually all avalanches release on slopes of 30 degrees and steeper. You can effectively avoid avalanche terrain by staying on slopes of less than 30 degrees. But if you are planning to tackle steeper terrain, here are a few safety reminders.
First, carry and know how to use avalanche rescue gear. You should not be skiing or climbing potential avalanche slopes without having beacons, shovels, and probes.
Second, only one person in a group should be exposed to potential avalanche danger at a time.
Third, climbing, skiing, and riding down the edge of slopes is safer than being in the center.
Fourth, snow stability changes from day to day and hour to hour. For example a large spring storm, or a sustained period of hot weather can increase the avalanche danger. During a storm, or immediately after, new snow may not bond well to the icy old snow surface. Also, soon after a storm, several hours of bright sun can warm the surface snow enough to become unstable. Though, after a couple of days, the new snow will strengthen and ease the danger.
Fifth, watch temperatures closely and monitor the snowpack for free water. When you can begin to wring water out of a fist full of snow, it is time to move to more gentle terrain, less than 30 degrees in steepness. Beware of overnight temperatures that do not get below the freezing level, or barely get below freezing for just a short time. When this happens the danger for wet snow avalanches increases earlier the following day. Usually you have little risk when you ski early in the morning when the snow surface is crusty, or just beginning to soften. The danger begins to rise with thaw conditions late in the morning through the afternoon.
And sixth, big cornices may last well into the summer. To be safe, avoid traveling under cornices when the snow turns wet or when water starts to drip from the cornices.
http://www.geosurvey.state.co.us/ava...rea=1&nav=last
thanks sheraQuote:
Originally posted by SheRa
Hey, I hope one of the senior maggots steps up and offers to take you out and teach you something. Duph did it for me and Brett's doing it for SC1776. It's really the best way. :)
Just read this on Colorado's Avy site, thought you might like it:
If you're planning late-spring adventures into the high-country, we hope you continue to think “avalanche.” At this time there is still plenty of snow for skiing, snowboarding, climbing and snowmobiling that will last into June at some of the high elevation sites.
This spring significant weak sugar-like snow still lurks on the high elevation Northerly aspects and has been responsible for a number of serious accidents in the N&C mtns since mid March. This weakness snow can lead to avalanches in both cold and dry snow and in warm and wet snow. Don’t let you guard down and think that because it is spring that all slopes and gullies are safe. If you are planning to tackle steep slopes you should be looking for this weak layer (and other weak layers, too) and doing stability tests to determine how well the snow layers are adhering.
Remember that virtually all avalanches release on slopes of 30 degrees and steeper. You can effectively avoid avalanche terrain by staying on slopes of less than 30 degrees. But if you are planning to tackle steeper terrain, here are a few safety reminders.
First, carry and know how to use avalanche rescue gear. You should not be skiing or climbing potential avalanche slopes without having beacons, shovels, and probes.
Second, only one person in a group should be exposed to potential avalanche danger at a time.
Third, climbing, skiing, and riding down the edge of slopes is safer than being in the center.
Fourth, snow stability changes from day to day and hour to hour. For example a large spring storm, or a sustained period of hot weather can increase the avalanche danger. During a storm, or immediately after, new snow may not bond well to the icy old snow surface. Also, soon after a storm, several hours of bright sun can warm the surface snow enough to become unstable. Though, after a couple of days, the new snow will strengthen and ease the danger.
Fifth, watch temperatures closely and monitor the snowpack for free water. When you can begin to wring water out of a fist full of snow, it is time to move to more gentle terrain, less than 30 degrees in steepness. Beware of overnight temperatures that do not get below the freezing level, or barely get below freezing for just a short time. When this happens the danger for wet snow avalanches increases earlier the following day. Usually you have little risk when you ski early in the morning when the snow surface is crusty, or just beginning to soften. The danger begins to rise with thaw conditions late in the morning through the afternoon.
And sixth, big cornices may last well into the summer. To be safe, avoid traveling under cornices when the snow turns wet or when water starts to drip from the cornices.
http://www.geosurvey.state.co.us/ava...rea=1&nav=last
I don't htink I'll be able to do much BC skiing untill July this year cause I'll be fishing in a flat spot wit the closest moutnains only accesable by heli (once again ONS you are a lucky bastard, look for me on the Tal :cool: )
so you going out to dig snowpits in the late spring snow pack? brilliant. might be a little firm.Quote:
Originally posted by Blurred Elevens
Simple. Until you learn to dig a pit and examine the layers, stay out of the backcountry.
Go read some avalanche books, take a class, and go dig a pit and learn yourself with Ingrid and Lhea.