I blame the Louisiana Governor

For those folks that think this whole delay in rescue can be dropped at Bush's doorstep, lets not forget that our governement is one built on principles of Federalism wherein the state is in charge of its own welfare.

Yes, in an emergency federal money and resources are utilized, but they are usually done at the direction and request of the local and state governments.

When a Hurricane hits FL (and actually when Kristina hit MS and AL), the governor tells the feds what they want, where they need it, and make sure it gets done.

On day one, LA should have been demanding that the feds come in and establish a communications system so that the state, city and federal agencies could communicate. Instead, all the news out of NO has been reported by news reporters instead of by NO cops and emergency workers.
If on day one the National Guard had come in with such a radio communication system, then the requests for federal relief and evacuation would have been much more timely, since the full extent of the crisis could have been known. Admitedly, the full crisis could be inferred from the news reports, but the response to that crisis still involves the state and local governments.

I would throw some blame at the Mayor also (and he does deserve lots of pre-flood blame) but after the flood came, he seemed to be stuck in a communication vacuum.

If you wanna blame Bush for having too many LA Nat. Guardsmen in Iraq, that's a fair statement.

But this idea that on day one or day two the federal government should have come in and taken over and sent in the marines flies smack in the face of past experience and protocol.

The state is the primary command and control agency, and they need to request specifically what and where they need relief.

Apparantly they finally requested a full scale military rescue force (or else the feds finally said to the LA government "get the fuck out of our way" because you are making our idiot commander in chief look stoopider than he is).

Either way, its nice to see real help is finally on the way.

+++ vibes and money sent

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

But this idea that on day one or day two the federal government should have come in and taken over and sent in the marines flies smack in the face of past experience and protocol.

The state is the primary command and control agency, and they need to request specifically what and where they need relief.

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Fuck shot, quit watching Fauxnews. Declaring the area a disaster area allows FEMA to be the primary coordinating agency for all relief efforts. By many accounts LA officials have been requesting aid for days, but all aid requests had to be routed through Washington & some assbag political appointees, and they didn't get a fucking clue until the end of the week. Did you listen to the Chertoff interview? Not only didn't he have a clue what was going on - he argued with people over what they saw!

Man the spin machine is good. FEMA and DHS fucked up. Blame the nearest Democrat!

Keep allowing the fucktards in power to play both ends against the middle, us. You are doing an excellent job.

Here are some interesting quotes:

"But she and other local officials suddenly faced a new problem: how to convince federal officials that just one break in one canal with such a mundane name could bring on a cataclysm that would require far more resources than had been needed to ward off the storm.

"I have been with Michael Brown since the minute he landed in this center," Ms. Landrieu said Friday in Baton Rouge, referring to the director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, "and I have been telling him from the moment he arrived about the urgency of the situation."

But, she said, "I just have to tell you that he had a difficult time understanding the enormity of the task before us.""

or:

"By Wednesday, with little visible response from the federal government, Ms. Landrieu said that she talked to FEMA officials. "I started to sense they were thinking I was a little overwrought, that maybe I was exaggerating a little bit," she said. When she pressed Mr. Brown on when he was going to finally get buses to pick up the people who had been trapped at the Superdome, "he just mumbled," she said"

and the intune leadership (at least this one doesn't like bulldozers)

"Ms. Landrieu said she had talked to Senator Bill Frist of Tennessee, the majority leader, on Tuesday and said she told him: " You remember when I flew over the tsunami with you? This was worse than anything we saw.' He said, 'No, you've got to be kidding.' I said, 'I know it's hard to grasp.' And he said, 'We're on it.'"

There will be an investigation, and we might just know where the blame lies someday.

I missed the fox spin, but I did see some of Chertoff's statement. I also have seen statements from MS and AL governors where they happily state that EVERY request they have made of the federal government was honored promptly.
Taken together (and given the TX Nat. Guard being next door, and Regional FEMA HQ being in TX) this leads me to think that the gov of LA is a complete boob. Either that, or the corruption in NO spreads throught the state of LA and the whole fucking governemnt there is infested with boobs and hacks.

BTW, here's the FEMA statement, if you care to read it:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FEMA

"What does FEMA do? Prepares – Responds – Helps Recover – Reduces Risk

Coordinates the Federal Response to Presidentially Declared Disasters
Whether a disaster strikes without warning, such as a tornado or
earthquake, or gives advance warning, such as a hurricane, FEMA moves
quickly to position staff and supplies and assess what other federal
agencies are needed as well.

FEMA does not respond to every disaster that occurs in the U.S. It
responds only when a disaster overwhelms a state's resources and the
governor requests federal help. Once damage assessments are made, the
President may issue a federal disaster declaration, opening the way for
the federal government to pay for disaster recovery."

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BTW, request federal help is not a feeble "help me" cry, but actual articulation of exactly what the fuck you need (or at least a ranting and screaming that what has been given so far is not enough).

Nagin was out there screaming and cursing, and I think he helped get results.
Where the fuck was Governor Blanco?? I never once heard her say the response was inadequte, or say we need X or Y, or pound her fist from the bully pulpit.

This was a crisis of leadership. Sure it would have been great if the feds took over sooner - it definitely would have saved lives, but it didn't happen, and I'm not so sure its easy to blame el Presidente Stupido for all this mess.

Say what you want about Fox, but O'reilly summerized the root of all problems last night: you can not rely on the government when you are in trouble. Democrats, republicans, whigs, torries, communists, socialists, monarchists-they will all let you down and let you die when given the opportunity.
The notion that another president, or another governor could have saves all or more or less lives is a naive one. The truth is, government is too large to be effective any more. How many rescue workers have we heard of here that were sitting by their phone for four days waiting for that call from whoever was above them, who was most likely waiting for a call from whoever was above them.
I think we should all learn from this horrible disaster to be prepared when the shit hits the fan. It doesn't take a savings account in Switzerland to have emergency food and water, and more importantly, a plan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cj001f

FEMA and DHS fucked up.

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FEMA is pathetic.

Once a great agency, our goto people for the entire nation being destroyed, FEMA's functionality was devestated when it was put under DHS. Now its a Terrorist Management agency instead of an Emeregency Management agency.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PacRimRider1

you can not rely on the government when you are in trouble.

...

I think we should all learn from this horrible disaster to be prepared when the shit hits the fan. It doesn't take a savings account in Switzerland to have emergency food and water, and more importantly, a plan.

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Truer words never spoken.

It's painfully obvious that the governor of LA and the mayor of New Orleans are totally inept at handling any crisis larger than a hangnail.

we are talking about the most corrupt state in the union. At every level of government in louisiana there has been a large size scandal. disgust, maybe, but surprise at their ineptitude if foolhardy. This time their inablity to run a government has cost hundreds? thousands? of lives and I hope they pay dearly.

this storm couldn't have hit a worse state.

"The only way I get kicked out of office is if they find me with a dead 12 year old girl, or a live 12 year old boy."

-Former LA governor Edwin Edwards after being indicted on 34 counts of racketeering and awarding riverboat contracts.

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

'Sentence first--verdict afterwards.'

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.........

Bottom line is the state needs to ask for Federal assistance. It's going to take time for the Feds to put a plan in place before they act. Every disaster is unique therefore preset plans have to be tweaked. The Feds had to start from scratch because the state of LA failed miserably in preparing for the disaster and found themselves(the state) quickly overwhelmed. The state has known for years that this could happen and what did they do to prepare? In my eyes not much. Knowing that the levies would only sustain a CAT3 hurricane where was the planning for the inevitable CAT4,5? If the SuperDome was the number 1 go to place for evacuation why didn't they have water, MRE's and medical supplies stockpiled nearby. Why didn't they have adequate supervision and muscle? And the same goes for any secondary evacuation points. The state of LA dropped the ball, bottom line!

How does your family prepare for a disaster? Do you have enough food and water for a week, month, or a year? If your home is destroyed does your county have a plan including shelter, food, water and medical supplies? If your county is wiped out does your state have a shelter, food, water and medical supplies? The answer in the case is the state of LA was not prepared and they can only blame themselves.


Just because the state was unprepared do you(the state) have a right to be upset when the Feds don't act as quickly as you would like them too? The governor of LA and her predecessors lack of preparation have caused numerous deaths which could have been prevented. They can only blame themselves.

Also, I am by no means a fan of GWB and his cronies. That's another reason why the state of LA should have been prepared!

[edit] Oh, and another thing... those thugs, rapists, and anybody who looted for means other than survival should be shot! There should be very strict laws and penalties against these sort of crimes in times of natural disasters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cj001f

Here are some interesting quotes:

"But she and other local officials suddenly faced a new problem: how to convince federal officials that just one break in one canal with such a mundane name could bring on a cataclysm that would require far more resources than had been needed to ward off the storm.

"I have been with Michael Brown since the minute he landed in this center," Ms. Landrieu said Friday in Baton Rouge, referring to the director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, "and I have been telling him from the moment he arrived about the urgency of the situation."

But, she said, "I just have to tell you that he had a difficult time understanding the enormity of the task before us.""

or:

"By Wednesday, with little visible response from the federal government, Ms. Landrieu said that she talked to FEMA officials. "I started to sense they were thinking I was a little overwrought, that maybe I was exaggerating a little bit," she said. When she pressed Mr. Brown on when he was going to finally get buses to pick up the people who had been trapped at the Superdome, "he just mumbled," she said"

and the intune leadership (at least this one doesn't like bulldozers)

"Ms. Landrieu said she had talked to Senator Bill Frist of Tennessee, the majority leader, on Tuesday and said she told him: " You remember when I flew over the tsunami with you? This was worse than anything we saw.' He said, 'No, you've got to be kidding.' I said, 'I know it's hard to grasp.' And he said, 'We're on it.'"

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CJ it looks as if Bush was the one that urged the inept Blanco to order the evacuation: CNN story here
It is really scary that the officials in Lousiana may not have ordered an evacuation.

I think Bush should have put more resources in more quickly after the fact, but Blanco bears a big part of the blame.

Saying the mayor and govenor are inept is really stupid. This was a hundred, if not a thousand year storm. I think the federal goverment, our fucktard president, and the fucks he appointed to positions like the Head of FEMA have dropped the ball bigtime. But despite that, I don't think anybody who saw this storm coming expected this. BUT WHAT THE FUCK DO WE HAVE THIS GIGANTIC MILITARY FORCE FOR IF WE CAN'T USE IT AT HOME? Maybe if our forces weren't spread so thin killing brown people and protecting us from "the constant threat of terrorism" and so much money hadn't been spent on it, there could have been more immediate help. And why did it take 5 days to show up???????? I heard both the mayor and govenor asking for assistance way before that.

Blaming the govenor and the mayor and the people "who chose not to evacuate" is assinine. Maybe ol' pull-string Redneck the puppet wasn't to blame in the first two days, but on day 3,4,5 and 6 he is. He's the fucking President, as unbelivable a concept that is. If he can start a pretend war, he can make some shit happen in New Orleans. We have a third-world cess pool within our borders now. And all Bush has done is state the obvious and have photo ops with little black girls. And his always sensitive members of cabinet, like Condi the robot, went $2000 shoe shopping on 5th Ave. just a couple days after Katrina hit. Way to go.

Edit: Not to mention Bush cut federal dollars spent on flood management for Lake Ponchatrain (SP?) by 80% despite pleads from city engineers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

lets not forget that our governement is one built on principles of Federalism wherein the state is in charge of its own welfare.

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I disagree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PacRimRider1

you can not rely on the government when you are in trouble.

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I disagree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bossass

Saying the mayor and govenor are inept is really stupid. This was a hundred, if not a thousand year storm. I think the federal goverment, our fucktard president, and the fucks he appointed to positions like the Head of FEMA have dropped the ball bigtime. But despite that, I don't think anybody who saw this storm coming expected this. BUT WHAT THE FUCK DO WE HAVE THIS GIGANTIC MILITARY FORCE FOR IF WE CAN'T USE IT AT HOME? Maybe if our forces weren't spread so thin killing brown people and protecting us from "the constant threat of terrorism" and so much money hadn't been spent on it, there could have been more immediate help. And why did it take 5 days to show up???????? I heard both the mayor and govenor asking for assistance way before that.

Blaming the govenor and the mayor and the people "who chose not to evacuate" is assinine. Maybe ol' pull-string Redneck the puppet wasn't to blame in the first two days, but on day 3,4,5 and 6 he is. He's the fucking President, as unbelivable a concept that is. If he can start a pretend war, he can make some shit happen in New Orleans. We have a third-world cess pool within our borders now. And all Bush has done is state the obvious and have photo ops with little black girls. And his always sensitive members of cabinet, like Condi the robot, went $2000 shoe shopping on 5th Ave. just a couple days after Katrina hit. Way to go.

Edit: Not to mention Bush cut federal dollars spent on flood management for Lake Ponchatrain (SP?) by 80% despite pleads from city engineers.

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I agree.

Quote:

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This was a hundred, if not a thousand year storm.

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Hundred year storm? I think not. Out of 23 recorded CAT5 storms since 1930, 7 have hit landfall including 2(now 3) in the US.

Not trying to get in a pissing match but Bossass... are you saying the state of LA was fully or even somewhat prepared for this? And that they can justify not being prepared because this has never happened in New Orleans before? In my opinion, anybody who neglectfully puts their life or the lives of people your responsible for in the hands of others, especially GWB, IS enept.

It's a well known given, not everybody is going to evacuate or be able to evacuate when given the notice. So why didn't the state have adequate food, water and medical supplies? Hell, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what is going to happen if the levies break! Whether or not their home is standing doesn't matter when it's flooded 2-20 feet deep throughout 80% of the city. The number of people dislocated from their homes could have accurately been tabulated. Therefore adequate relief should have been in place and accessible. Blaming GWB is just assinine... would you blame and reprimand your 2-year old for spilling milk at the table? :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mcwop

I think Bush should have put more resources in more quickly after the fact, but Blanco bears a big part of the blame.

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For what? Not-evacuating the hospital patients, elderly and poor they didn't have the resources to evacuate, or places to put them?

All of you second guessers, how many of your states have "adequate" emergency food and water supplies for a 100 year emergency (not storm, emergency). I'll bet none. I know Colorado (fires), California(earthquakes), and Hawaii (storms), have needed aid from other states.

How many of you are willing to pay for your state to put aside those resources? Before this happened, I'd say none. Now, you will for a few years until you forget. Pooling disaster resources at a federal level fundamentally makes sense - it's an insurance policy. Not every state on the atlantic seaboard will be struck by a catastrophic hurricane everyyear. Same with earthquakes, forestfires, and flooding.

The federal response in NO has been slow beyond belief. And the response in Mississippi hasn't been particularly stellar either. Some devastated communities in that state have yet to see anyone or anything from FEMA or the National Guard.

You can try to blame the lack of good response on local and state officials in Louisiana, just like FOX News wants. Interestingly, Haley Barbour, Republican governor of Mississippi, has had difficulty getting FEMA to do its job in his state, too. The evidence points to a large degree of incompetence by the federal government.

George W. Bush's leadership and management skills fall short in this crisis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

I disagree.

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That's fine. Just don't ask me for any of my water come the apocalypse. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cj001f

For what? Not-evacuating the hospital patients, elderly and poor they didn't have the resources to evacuate, or places to put them?

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Thank you. That's exactly my point! They were unprepared and the state should take 90% of the blame. We will see. (Understanding their are limited personnel resources to evacuate due to the war.) God damn, they live in a cereal bowl right in hurricane alley.

I'm done... my heart goes out to all the refugees.

Food for thought...
Your skiing the backcountry and you bring along President Bush and Gov. Blanco. Who's to blame when you're buried in an avalanche?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cj001f

For what? Not-evacuating the hospital patients, elderly and poor they didn't have the resources to evacuate, or places to put them?

All of you second guessers, how many of your states have "adequate" emergency food and water supplies for a 100 year emergency (not storm, emergency). I'll bet none. I know Colorado (fires), California(earthquakes), and Hawaii (storms), have needed aid from other states.

How many of you are willing to pay for your state to put aside those resources? Before this happened, I'd say none. Now, you will for a few years until you forget. Pooling disaster resources at a federal level fundamentally makes sense - it's an insurance policy. Not every state on the atlantic seaboard will be struck by a catastrophic hurricane everyyear. Same with earthquakes, forestfires, and flooding.

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She is inept for not using all of the states buses to get people out that did not have the means. For not arranging shelters (which should have been planned for long ago), I bet there are plenty of government buildings (schools etc around the state - north of the city above sea level), and in nearby states. She did not even plan to order an evacuation, which might have left everyone in the city.

In Maryland we git hit by a storm every 4.96 years, and there are excellent evac plans in place (I have witnessed 3 of them). They utilize schools as shelters, which are often stocked with food and water. They use public buses to move people out. Here is little Ocean City's plan - and they have pre-determined shelters. The most important thing is to get people out of low lying areas, that way it is easier to get resources there after the storm passes.

In my home state of RI, they are also better prepared. I have witnessed several coastline evacs there, and the state was prepared to get a lot of people out on small roads.

I feel that I am second guessing based on first hand experience.

Edit - i have been through 3 in MD, and 2 in RI.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mcwop

I feel that I am second guessing based on first hand experience.

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Evacuating 7,000 people from Ocean City is different than 450,000 from New Orleans. Louisiana is also ranks 43rd in per capita income in the nation. It's dirt poor. By comparison Maryland is 4th, Rhode Island is 17th. (and yes Mississippi is 50th, but they don't have the exposure) It's alot harder to prepare for anything when you are poor, and all of the steps you outlined take money. Buses take drivers, Food for shelters costs money.

Speaking of preventitive money, what about the Army Corps and it's levees. If they hadn't broke, their wouldn't be near the mess. One guess who's in charge of the Corps ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cj001f

It's alot harder to prepare for anything when you are poor, and all of the steps you outlined take money. Buses take drivers, Food for shelters costs money.

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Louisianna takes in $500,000 per day (182,500,000 per year) in tax revenue from it's river boat casinos. I would guess that the state is not poor, just most of the people.

Done starting nnnnnnnnnnow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cj001f

Evacuating 7,000 people from Ocean City is different than 450,000 from New Orleans. Louisiana is also ranks 43rd in per capita income in the nation. It's dirt poor. By comparison Maryland is 4th, Rhode Island is 17th. (and yes Mississippi is 50th, but they don't have the exposure) It's alot harder to prepare for anything when you are poor, and all of the steps you outlined take money. Buses take drivers, Food for shelters costs money.

Speaking of preventitive money, what about the Army Corps and it's levees. If they hadn't broke, their wouldn't be near the mess. One guess who's in charge of the Corps ...

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There are a lot more than 7,000 people on the coasts of MD (Ocean City is not the only place on the coast), and the roads out of there are not major highways. The difference is they have a plan using exisiting resources, and LA had none - or they had one and did not follow it. Every extra person that LA could have bused out is one less to worry about.

I find it hard to believe there is nobody in the state to drive the buses.

As I have said before Bush bears some blame for not getting resources in quickly enough, but LA officals also bear blame.

My guess is that the LA governor will resign before her term is up.

Anyhow, CJ we will have to disagree. Thank you for keeping the argument civil. Hope to meet you this season - somewhere.