Opinions on the Ski Visions base flattener???

Tried the search fucktion and got little so thought I would put the question again. In the past year I've had skis tuned on 3 different Wintersteigers and all with less than perfect results so now thinking of doing it by hand. Got all the edge bevel tools (SVST) but nothing for getting bases flat and reestablishing structure. Does the ski visions work well for this? I don't mind spending some time if I can repeatably get FLAT bases. Would likely get both the file and stone tools. Do you guys that have them still use them? Lay the info on me.

LT

I have that tool. It works to flatten a base, but I mostly use it to flatten repaired areas after a base weld. Personally, if I had a ski that needed serious work (very edge or base high), I just take it to a shop. The ski visions tool takes some time and I don't seem to get as good results as a good shop can do with a machine. YMMV.

Problem is I've tried 3 different shops between here and Seattle (5 hrs away) and have had less than satisfactory results with each. We live a long way from the rest of the universe so it's not like I can hit a series of shops to see which comes out best, hence my desire to do it myself where I could fuck with it till it's right. Mostly I'm not looking to correct major flaws, just keeping bases tight and getting consistent edge angles. Evidently getting a machine to produce a base edge angle less than 1.5 degrees is impossible. Tired of the wife asking the fuck happend to her skis.

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Originally Posted by Lord Thomas

Problem is I've tried 3 different shops between here and Seattle (5 hrs away) and have had less than satisfactory results with each. We live a long way from the rest of the universe so it's not like I can hit a series of shops to see which comes out best, hence my desire to do it myself where I could fuck with it till it's right. Mostly I'm not looking to correct major flaws, just keeping bases tight and getting consistent edge angles. Evidently getting a machine to produce a base edge angle less than 1.5 degrees is impossible. Tired of the wife asking the fuck happend to her skis.

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Are there any local race clubs? I'd ask them where they take their skis. Almost no skis come flat from the factory, and some have nasty habits of becoming unflat again over time, so a race club with athletes over the age of 12 is very likely to have a relationship with a a local shop who knows how to use their grinder properly. You may need to ask for a race tune (and specify that you want 2' and not 3' edge bevels).

Alternatively, it's a PITA, but since you should only need to grind once a year or so, you could ship them to a race shop that does mail-order ski prep.

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Originally Posted by El Chupacabra

I have that tool. It works to flatten a base, but I mostly use it to flatten repaired areas after a base weld. Personally, if I had a ski that needed serious work (very edge or base high), I just take it to a shop. The ski visions tool takes some time and I don't seem to get as good results as a good shop can do with a machine. YMMV.

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I pretty much figured this ^^ my version 1 Verdicts (Atomic) were concave and a bit evil handling at times so when a shop in Whistler was offering 1/2 price stone grinds on a Monatana Saphir machine I went for it. The skis turned out perfect in spite of the fact the shop guys were idiots but they just loaded em in, the computer does everything and 10-15 min later they were perfect

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Originally Posted by El Chupacabra

I have that tool. It works to flatten a base, but I mostly use it to flatten repaired areas after a base weld. Personally, if I had a ski that needed serious work (very edge or base high), I just take it to a shop. The ski visions tool takes some time and I don't seem to get as good results as a good shop can do with a machine. YMMV.

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I also have it, and use it similarly to EC.
Since your distance to a shop is high and you're willing to burn time [and taking to a shop far away burns a lot of time anyway] I think it probably can work well for you. I'm the ultimate cheapskate, so I usually do things myself, and to the point of "good enough."

Some of the tips in the "base flattening" section [and others] at Tognar will likely be helpful, in the absence of being able to hand a problem off to a shop.
http://www.tognar.com/blog/base-flattening/

HTH

I think the Ski Visions tool is great for flattening out repairs, great for adding / removing structure, and great for addressing very minor high or low spots on the base. If you've got a base that is more than just slightly railed or convex though, it would take an awful lot of passes to make a significant difference with this tool.

I'm glad I have one, and I use it often enough that it's been a good purchase, but if I have a base that needs work along the length of the ski to make it flat, I take the ski to a decent shop and let them have at it.

Echo whats is said before, I only have the structure tool you would use for flattening base high skis, not the file one for edge high.

Takes some time, results are pretty good, first pass can be scary as it puts good size gouges in sections but as you work away they disappear.

I would pick it over a shot in the dark shop, and I like doing my own stuff.

A top well known shop would be good for seriously non-flat bases.

What about the tool that uses the file? Seems like you could remove a shit ton of material depending on the file you use. (I do enough precision work on firearms that I've got a pretty significant number [>100} and array of files - kind of a file nerd)

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Originally Posted by Lord Thomas

What about the tool that uses the file? Seems like you could remove a shit ton of material depending on the file you use. (I do enough precision work on firearms that I've got a pretty significant number [>100} and array of files - kind of a file nerd)

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The ski visions flattener uses a steel bar and not a file to take material away. You can certainly use a flat file to remove material, but that would work best with a file holder and a block to allow even pressure, with less cutting power and precision than the ski visions bar. I find the tool works better on skis <100mm than greater than 100mm waist. It's not a bad DIY tool and it really shines when used cleaning up after base repairs, but I wouldn't use it on any of the race skis I take care of. The structure tools only impart linear structures and they look like home repair jobs compared to either the cross-hatch or chevron structures imparted from a good machine run. Plug for my sponsors- World Cup Ski Service in Bellevue does great tunes.

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Originally Posted by Mofro261

The ski visions flattener uses a steel bar and not a file to take material away.

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May just be difference in language. From what I can see, the tool now comes both with the ruby stone, and a "steel blade" which can be swapped in depend on whether one wants to file down edges or just PTEX.

These are two different tools, both made by skivisions. I have both, but limited experience with the file. I'll try to report back on my experience with each.

Seth

Sent from my Pixel 2 using TGR Forums mobile app

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Originally Posted by sethschmautz

These are two different tools, both made by skivisions. I have both, but limited experience with the file. I'll try to report back on my experience with each.

Seth

Sent from my Pixel 2 using TGR Forums mobile app

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Yep. After finding one of my skis has a edge high base I’m tempted to get the file one too now.

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Originally Posted by Mofro261

The ski visions flattener uses a steel bar and not a file to take material away. You can certainly use a flat file to remove material, but that would work best with a file holder and a block to allow even pressure, with less cutting power and precision than the ski visions bar. I find the tool works better on skis <100mm than greater than 100mm waist. It's not a bad DIY tool and it really shines when used cleaning up after base repairs, but I wouldn't use it on any of the race skis I take care of. The structure tools only impart linear structures and they look like home repair jobs compared to either the cross-hatch or chevron structures imparted from a good machine run. Plug for my sponsors- World Cup Ski Service in Bellevue does great tunes.

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This gets somewhat off topic of the thread - but do you honestly think you could tell the difference between the two structures, without knowing before hand what was on the ski?

I'm virtually certain I couldn't do better than a coin toss in determining which was which. [Hell, I probably couldn't reliably tell if the skis were recently waxed or not, if I'm honest. And that would seem to be a *much* larger change. If I couldn't reliably distinguish that, then worrying about the structure overly much seems completely wasted, at least on me.]

But I will give you that they *look* quite different. :)

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Originally Posted by CaliBrit

Yep. After finding one of my skis has a edge high base I’m tempted to get the file one too now.

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I'm confused. The one Slidewright sells seems to be one tool, both for flattening and structuring, and takes either a stone (for structure) or file (for flattening.) Maybe Alpinlord could drop in and explain?

http://www.slidewright.com/skivision...uring-tool.php

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Originally Posted by gregorys

This gets somewhat off topic of the thread - but do you honestly think you could tell the difference between the two structures, without knowing before hand what was on the ski?

I'm virtually certain I couldn't do better than a coin toss in determining which was which. [Hell, I probably couldn't reliably tell if the skis were recently waxed or not, if I'm honest. And that would seem to be a *much* larger change. If I couldn't reliably distinguish that, then worrying about the structure overly much seems completely wasted, at least on me.]

But I will give you that they *look* quite different. :)

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Thank god for the little known and difficult to master fingernail scrape test.

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

I'm confused. The one Slidewright sells seems to be one tool, both for flattening and structuring, and takes either a stone (for structure) or file (for flattening.) Maybe Alpinlord could drop in and explain?

http://www.slidewright.com/skivision...uring-tool.php

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I think alpinlord does only sell the flattening and structure tool. Which is great for flattening base high. It doesn’t hold a file. It holds a stone and a steel edge. Call the man himself! He’ll help you out and give you a wealth of knowledge.

Ski visions also make a much more brutal base flattening tool that uses a file which is deigned for major flattening or edge high deals.

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

I'm confused. The one Slidewright sells seems to be one tool, both for flattening and structuring, and takes either a stone (for structure) or file (for flattening.) Maybe Alpinlord could drop in and explain?

http://www.slidewright.com/skivision...uring-tool.php

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I bought both from Terry (alpinord) and they are two different tools. The one from your link flattens base high bases and structures. The other tool is for edge high bases but does not structure.

The file tool is only needed if you have skis that are edge high.

Seth

Sent from my Pixel 2 using TGR Forums mobile app

http://skivisions.us/mediac/400_0/media/dc97a8d13b9878beffff8436ffffe904.JPG[/IMG]

The Ski File planer uses a crosscut file which works very well for edge high skis and snowboards. It also leaves a nice finish on the base after repairs and minor structuring. Unfortunately, it is not available for the time being until Ski Visions finds a quality replacement source for the files.

vs Base Flattener and Structuring tool

https://tgr.scdn2.secure.raxcdn.com/...ttener$201.jpg

(Actually black, not red.)

The Base Flattener

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Originally Posted by Alpinord

Though the metal blade in the Ski Base Flattener & Structuring tool can cut the edges, I prefer a file.

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Interesting. The video by the Skivisions guy on Youtube warns specifically against this (using the metal blade on edges) if memory serves. I may need to watch that video again.

I got the base flattening and structuring tool first and used it mostly for putting a coarser structure on my skis for spring skiing. On a flat base, this is easy to do and there are great how to videos on Youtube. I have only done a few skis this way, but will probably do this each spring because it helps channel water and keeps my skis skiing faster when snow gets wet. It also doesn't remove much material and it's easy to knock it back down with the metal blade.

The base file is more aggressive. If you hit a base high section with the file it really chews into the ski. At first, and if you don't have the Flattener/Structurer, this can be a bit alarming when it happens at first. However, similar to above, you can knock that down with the metal blade on the Flattener/Structurer. I found that I was struggling a bit to make much headway on the edges, to be honest. I made a lot of passes and didn't seem like I was taking off much/any of the edges. I've only really worked on one pair of skis with this tool, and need some practice before I feel good and confident with it.

Terry, if you read this, do you have any thoughts about not getting much of the edges with multiple passes with the file?

Thomas, let me know if you have any specific questions that I can answer.

Seth

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Originally Posted by sethschmautz

Interesting. The video by the Skivisions guy on Youtube warns specifically against this (using the metal blade on edges) if memory serves. I may need to watch that video again.

I got the base flattening and structuring tool first and used it mostly for putting a coarser structure on my skis for spring skiing. On a flat base, this is easy to do and there are great how to videos on Youtube. I have only done a few skis this way, but will probably do this each spring because it helps channel water and keeps my skis skiing faster when snow gets wet. It also doesn't remove much material and it's easy to knock it back down with the metal blade.

The base file is more aggressive. If you hit a base high section with the file it really chews into the ski. At first, and if you don't have the Flattener/Structurer, this can be a bit alarming when it happens at first. However, similar to above, you can knock that down with the metal blade on the Flattener/Structurer. I found that I was struggling a bit to make much headway on the edges, to be honest. I made a lot of passes and didn't seem like I was taking off much/any of the edges. I've only really worked on one pair of skis with this tool, and need some practice before I feel good and confident with it.

Terry, if you read this, do you have any thoughts about not getting much of the edges with multiple passes with the file?

Thomas, let me know if you have any specific questions that I can answer.

Seth

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Don't let the stones hit the edge. The hardened steel blade is designed to cut edges:

"The steel blade requires some skill and care when using it, but it is a powerful blade that can slice through steel and plastic on ski bases simultaneously and can be re-sharpened an infinite number of times (see “Stone/Steel Inserts Maintenance). However, we now prefer using the File Base Flattener on metal edges and just use the steel blade for final finish on the p-tex."

Like any tool, sharpness and pressure come into play. Let the tool do the work. The crosscut file works well for the edges, just use lighter pressure and more reps (spinning on a bike vs cranking). The reason Mark is not currently releasing the File Flattener planes is he is not confident with replacement options yet to the crosscut file you have in hand.

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Originally Posted by Lord Thomas

Problem is I've tried 3 different shops between here and Seattle (5 hrs away) and have had less than satisfactory results with each. We live a long way from the rest of the universe so it's not like I can hit a series of shops to see which comes out best, hence my desire to do it myself where I could fuck with it till it's right. Mostly I'm not looking to correct major flaws, just keeping bases tight and getting consistent edge angles. Evidently getting a machine to produce a base edge angle less than 1.5 degrees is impossible. Tired of the wife asking the fuck happend to her skis.

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They got a new machine at Arlberg, skis are coming out great now. They had fucked up a couple pairs of ski for me in the past but after talking with a few 'picky' skiers here, the consensus was that with the new machine they're go to go. I believe the new machine is a Reichman. I just had a pair of skis ground and tuned there and they came back beautiful and ski better than ever.

^^^ Good to know. I had some ground fall of 2016 and felt they did more damage than good. Had to go back over them with the skivisions structuring tool and wax them. Sort of the reason I took them there in the first place.

I've been using the Ski Visions tool with the metal bar quite extensively with excellent results. It's capable of removing a lot of material quickly and, because of the way the metal bar cuts/shaves, I've found it opens up the base structure really well without resorting to the stone bars. The one time I used the stone bar I was a little too enthusiastic and had to spend over 1/2 hour with the metal bar to bring it back into shape. The metal bar can cut even hard steel edges but I only use it until I can see I have the base flush with the edges. You definitely want to use this tool with a good set of ski vises! The widest ski I've used it on is about 138/100/128 and I can see how, much wider than this, the tool would become increasingly difficult to use. But it works fine for that width and, if your skis are much wider than that, you're probably not too concerned with whether the bases are a little high because you're on powder boats.

After using the metal bar on all my well used skis, they take wax better and the glide is a lot better too. Not to mention that eliminating the base high condition made all my skis more responsive, both in turn initiation and also the finish of the turn. Since I ski primarily in the Cascades, I follow up the steel bar with a warm wax with a top coat of high flouro Toko for warm temps. It lasts a long time and it's very rare that I see any faster skis on the flat return trails or high traverses to get the goods. I've also been experimenting with Dfunks Speed Wax for warm conditions (anything warmer than 25F) with good results. I'm not sure which I like better yet because I forget which wax I've used on which skis. Both solutions work well for typical cascade conditions and make skating a breeze too. Sometimes skating is needed to get the best goods. I'm always amazed at the number of people who think they don't need or appreciate a fast ski. Skis with low friction ski so much better. Same with flat bases. Most of my skis end up base high and this is true even before the edges have been filed.

So the bottom line is that these tools actually work pretty well but take a lot of time??? When used properly can fix most common problems (i.e. edge high) and get bases perfectly flat? I'm sick of playing musical grinders to see if one of these shops can hit the jackpot and actually make a base flat and edges withing half a degree of what they say it will be.